BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)

Subject: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 09:40 PM

Somebody sent me this as a personal message, and gave me permission to share:

Hi Joe. I may be addressing the wrong person here, so apologies for that in advance.
Feel free to pass this on. First, an observation. I really think we should be able to discuss Fidel Castro. Another observation: the latter reaches of the thread attracted idiocy of the highest order, I'll not deny.

Yeah, we need to discuss Fidel Castro. It's a pressing issue right now, and we Americans have a President-elect who will no doubt respond to the death of Castro in ways that will be distressing to many of us. I think it was wise to close the previous thread, but we need to continue the discussion. Bobad and others, if you get out out of hand, we'll have to shut you down so that others can continue the discussion. The usual way we do that, is with a one-week suspension of your membership. If you want to consider that a threat, feel free.
This thread is about Fidel Castro. Messages on other subjects will be deleted. And that's a threat, too. What's wrong with threats? They explain beforehand the consequences of your actions.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 10:27 PM

Wikipedia says Fidel Castro was born in 1926. He died last Friday, November 25. He tried to overthrow Cuban President Fulgencio Batista in 1953. He failed, and ended up in jail. He and his allies succeeded in overthrowing Batista in 1959, and Castro then ruled Cuba until he resigned due to ill health in 2008. His brother Raúl has ruled Cuba since then.

In many ways, I think Castro followed the Communist model far more closely than did the Soviet Union, the Warsaw Pact countries, and China and North Korea. Under Castro, Cuba achieved one of the highest levels of literacy in the world, and the Cuban system of medical care is admirable in many ways. Collective enterprises in Cuba followed the Communist ideal very closely - with varying levels of success.

I think the presence of Castro in Cuba prevented Cuba from becoming an American resort, a suburb of the United States. On the other hand, it prevented Cuba from enjoying the many benefits of free trade with the United States. Castro restricted life in many ways, but there are many ways that Castro's oppressive regime allowed Cuba to remain Cuban, instead of becoming a vassal of the United States. If Batista had remained in power, is there any chance that Cuba today would be completely free of Starbucks and WalMart?

Mudcat is still a music forum, so I have to bring up the Buena Vista Social Club in this thread. As Wikipedia says,

The original Buena Vista Social Club held dances and musical activities, becoming a popular location for musicians to meet and play during the 1940s. In the 1990s, nearly 50 years after the club was closed, it inspired a recording made by Cuban musician Juan de Marcos González and American guitarist Ry Cooder with traditional Cuban musicians, some of whom were veterans who had performed at the club during the height of its popularity.

If Batista had retained power with American support, what would have happened to Cuban music? what DID happen to Cuban music under Castro?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 29 Nov 16 - 10:42 PM

He did follow the Communist model of the Soviet Union as far as oppression and terror go. He stifled the human spirit by turning neighbour against neighbour and made Cubans prisoners in their own homes. Thousands died and many more rot in prisons, gulags modeled on those of his Soviet sponsors.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 02:52 AM

Bobad, I don't know if what you are saying is accurate, but don't you accept that in some circumstances there can be too much freedom?

If a truly nationalised health or education system is too be created, something must be done to affect the power of private capital.

It is really a war between the two systems.....not the sham of left and right that we are presented with, but differing economic goals.

Personal financial aspiration is a wonderful driving force for capitalism, but a huge obstruction if the goal is in forming an equitable society.
Joe is right, corporate capitalism is a wrecking ball and the "freedom" it presents leads to the ultimate destruction of society.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:06 AM

True Cuba under Fidel Castro has followed the old Soviet Marxist-Leninist model closer than any other satellite communist state. During his time in power ~1,500,000 Cubans fled the country to escape the excesses of the regime he brought to power and presided over.

Some 11.39 million people live in Cuba which allows only one political party to campaign. In all communist countries and as described in Orwell's "Animal Farm", some animals are more equal than others, Communist Party Membership is the thing that makes a person more equal than his fellow citizens, their access to better services right across the board and to better job opportunities is guaranteed - the only thing is that membership is granted by birth or invitation only. The Communist Party in Cuba numbers 800,000 - 7% of the population.

Joe above states that "we need to discuss Fidel Castro. It's a pressing issue right now" - I would doubt very much if the average American citizen is even remotely interested in Fidel Castro or in Cuba. I think that right at this moment American citizens have got far more pressing fundamental and important domestic issues on their minds right now.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:03 AM

Three totally unqualified and basically inaccurate accounts of what has happened to Cuba since it lifted itself out of being "America's open sewer'
Cuba has been in a state of siege for half a century, under constant attack from an aggressively warlike neighbour with a record of invading, manipulating and illegally interfering with any State that threatens its own well-being - ALL ON RECORD
The President of Cuba has been subject to over 300 assasination attemps by the security forces of the U.S.
That is surely worth a mention - in the list of crimes the Cuban leadership is supposed to have committed - or maybe not!!
Those who have left Cuba can be summed up by their objectives - "to return Cuba back to it rightful owners and to dismantle the welfare, education and health system these "tyrants" have set up and get rid of the free-loaders"
Something else worth a mention - or maybe not!!
This garbage is straight out of the John Birch Society, Cold-War handbook
Him Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:15 AM

Teribus, Orwell's world can exist in any political grouping, that's why I have cited him in my posts against "liberal" ideology
The "liberal" media and "liberal" political elite can be just as dangerous as any totalitarian regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:22 AM

Many of those who fled Cuba after the fall of Batista, were those who had accumulated wealth during the Batista regime. It would have been impossible for Castro to build a communist government and allow these people to retain their wealth. When they moved to Florida, the refugees formed a formidable right-wing political force. This has affected politics in Florida ever since.
It seems to me that the Cuban people have a genuine affection for Fidel. that being the case, I suspect that the Castro regime was far more effective than Americans thought it to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:29 AM

Teribus says Americans have no need to concern themselves with Castro. Maybe so, maybe not. I am afraid that Trump will try to take advantage of the death of Castro and will do something rash toward Cuba.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:31 AM

"I suspect that the Castro regime was far more effective than Americans thought it to be."
It is interesting to remember that the U.S. was the first nation to recognise Cuba after the revolution.
I remember being extremely influenced as a young man by a wonderful analysis of what had happened in a book entitled 'Listen Yankee', by American sociologist, C Wright Mills.
Hope to read it again if I can lay my hands on it
""liberal" ideology"
There goes you re-nvention of the English language again Ake
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:04 AM

Odd that Teribus should be trying to sideline Castro almost right out of history as far as America goes, being such an aficionado of history himself. Whatever you think of Castro, he is unarguably a giant political figure of the 20th century. When giant figures die, tradition dictates that there's a massive assessment/reassessment of their place in history. That is what's happening right now (and why it's right that there should be a thread - cheers, Joe). It can be a learning curve for those who relegated Castro to the backs of their minds once he'd lost influence after the collapse of the Soviet Union, even more so when he became old and unwell.

Joe is quite right in putting the flight of the rich from Cuba to Florida once Batista was gone into proper context. You have to wonder how some of the bitter expats and their descendants who form that right-wing political force in Florida came upon their family money. The bare stats don't tell the whole story, do they, Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 09:05 AM

By way of explanation to the politically challenged, yes I do mean you Jim....and your coterie :0)

Fidel Castro was a Socialist, he was never and never claimed to be a "liberal".   Maybe that illustrates your problems with language.

To effect meaningful change in society demands a good dose of "smeddum".......As Meg Menzies said in Lewis Grassic Gibbon's fine short story of the same name....."YE need smeddum, tae be richt coorse....or richt kind!"


Fidel Castro had Smeddum in cartloads    RIP.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 11:17 AM

Trump will try to take advantage of the death of Castro and will do something rash toward Cuba.

Trump will do something rash toward everything he touches. End of story.
He will be the most loathed President the U.S. has ever had the misfortune to suffer under.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 11:24 AM

"Fidel Castro was a Socialist, he was never and never claimed to be a "liberal""
Who on earth said he did - certainly not me.
Castro and Guevara were national liberationists who were driven into the arms of Marxism by the behaviour of the US and the preparedness of The Soviet Union to offer them assistance
Call me 'politically challenged' when you have read up the subject
Castro kept the faith with Cuba despite the U.S.'s attempts to bring it down
For the record - the only Cuban Gulag is still operating in Guantanamo.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 11:51 AM

"I am afraid that Trump will try to take advantage of the death of Castro and will do something rash toward Cuba." - Joe Offer

One question: WHY?

I believe that the USA has problems enough of it's own.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 12:10 PM

One question: WHY?

Perhaps because he's an loud-mouthed ignorant buffoon with a Cabinet of idiots and worse behind-the-scenes advisors??

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 12:23 PM

"Perhaps because he's an loud-mouthed ignorant buffoon "
Perhaps it's because Cuba has always remained a goal to be aspired to py progressive South American leaders who wished to get from under the U.S. thumb -
One of the reasons we are arguing against this garbage and why the U.S. put in so much effort into denigrating the Cuban leadership and making sure their policies were spancilled was their fear of the 'Domino effect'
THere are a hell of a lot of S.A. countries very near to the situation Cuba was in pre-Castro - that's why they made sure Guevara was murdered
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 12:30 PM

The proportion of people in prison in Cuba is far far fewer than in the United States. So of course is the rate of gun killings. The most recent execution in Cuba was in 2003, the most recent in the US was last week.

The thing is you can cherry pick statistics to prove Cuba is a far more civilised country than the USA, or the other way round.

Which country is the less free is open than question. Freedom is made up of all kinds of different aspects.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 12:56 PM

From Pope Francis "On receiving the sad news of the death of your dear brother, His Excellency Mister Fidel Alejandro Castro Ruz, former president of the State Council and of the Government of the Republic of Cuba, I express my sentiments of sorrow to Your Excellency and other family members of the deceased dignitary, as well as to the people of this beloved nation. At the same time, I offer prayers to the Lord for his rest and I entrust the whole Cuban people to the maternal intercession of Our Lady of Charity of El Cobre, patroness of that country."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 01:05 PM

"Freedom is made up of all kinds of different aspects."
It is, of course Dave
We have freedom of speech, but we have lass and less actual say in our lives.
We have freedom to choose our leaders, but we have no control over what they do when they are elected.
Our freedom of choice is very much governed by what access we have to information, which is largely controlled by a media which supports the status quo.
Our freedom to elect our leaders was shred by the people of pre-war Germany - not forgetting the electorate who put Trump into power
Mention a 'freeedom' and there is not an establishment on the planet who is not prepared to manipulate it for their own ends.
This is why I suggested that any 'ideal' government musty be subject to recall if they don't come uop with the goods
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: keberoxu
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 01:32 PM

This development summons childhood memories.

I was a child in elementary school when Castro and Kennedy faced each other. I'm not that old now; and a number of the then-adults who, when I was a child, could opine loud and long on the subject of Castro, are alive yet, still giving their opinions, and still registered to vote.

So, with respect, Teribus, this is partly a generational thing, as in older white males in the US. I guess you would like me to recall the choice of words with which we children were harangued, in the elementary-school classroom, about Fidel Castro? Too bad, it won't come from me. It is the emotion and the tone I recall better than the words. There remains, I repeat, a generation of elders (not me, an older generation) in the US who have waited all these years for Castro to die. And they will take their position on Castro, and Cuba, to their own graves.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 01:39 PM

Teribus asks why I fear that Trump will do something rash in Cuba. When U.S. Presidents have problems at home, they often shore up their popularity by sending troops overseas - and it works. The Bush war in Iraq is what got "W" elected to a second term.

The U.S. owned Cuba from 1898 to 1959. The Cuban-American community in South Florida has had amazing political strength for decades - and many of them want Cuba to be under American control again.

For over a century, at least until the end of the Reagan Administration, the U.S. did its best to control every government in the Americas - and remember that Republicans consider the Reagan years to be the Glory Days of the Republican Party. I think that a return to interventionism was a strong undertone in the rhetoric of the Trump campaign. "Making America Great Again" implies regaining control of ALL the Americas.

Make no mistake. The Republicans will again use the CIA to conquer the Americas in a heartbeat, given half an opportunity. Castro was respected as an international leader by most nations in the Americas, and his leadership played a very important part in stopping American interventionism.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 02:00 PM

I looked up the Spanish-American War in Wikipedia when I was writing my last post. I knew the war was in 1898, hadn't known it lasted only ten weeks. As a result, the U.S. won Cuba, Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Philippine islands. Pretty rich booty, I'd say. I'm sure Trump would do it again, given half a chance. It would assure him election to a second term.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: meself
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 02:57 PM

Yikes. And here I thought that the one thing that could be said in Trump's favour is that he seems more isolationist than interventionist. I hope you're wrong, Joe!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:02 PM

How's Trump going to get Mexico to pay for his Wall, meself? He'll revive interventionism, of course.

Next question: Who will Trump get to select the Wall-paper, Ivanka or Melania? He's also out to revive male chauvinism, so of course wallpaper selection will be an appropriate job for his ladies.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 03:19 PM

wallpaper selection will be an appropriate job for his ladies.

Stand by for barefoot and pregnant.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: akenaton
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:22 PM

Joe, I think you are becoming too partisan. The history of the Democrats in office is no better....Kennedy, LBJ, even Obama in Libya and Iraq.

It is not a party issue and I think Mr Trump will be less interventionist in office.....Regulating immigration is a domestic matter, not foreign affairs. Mrs Clinton would have ushered in another decade of Cold War rhetoric and possibly a serious confrontation with Russia over Syria by attempting to set up a "no fly zone" which, just as it did in Libya, would signal the defeat of the official government.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:40 PM

Oh, I wouldn't give the Democrats a free pass, Ake. As I said, American interventionism in the Americas began in the late 1800s, before they even finished conquering the "lower 48." It continued through the Reagan Administration, but dwindled after that - partly due to Castro's opposition, I believe.

I do recall that there were a few Democrats elected President between 1850 and 1990 - and they were certainly involved in American interventionism in the Americas. Kennedy was particularly deep in it, but LBJ was distracted by Vietnam. Yes, there was American interventionism in other parts of the world, but not as solidly motivated by "manifest destiny" as it was in the Americas.

The Reagan Administration was the last American Presidency that was deeply involved in interfering with governments in the Americas. Remember El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Grenada? Those were only the tip of the iceberg. And the Republicans have canonized Reagan. Now that they have control of the Presidency and both houses of Congress, they yearn to go back to Reagan's glory days - "when the U.S. was respected," they say.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 04:47 PM

"Teribus asks why I fear that Trump will do something rash in Cuba. When U.S. Presidents have problems at home, they often shore up their popularity by sending troops overseas - and it works. The Bush war in Iraq is what got "W" elected to a second term."

Exactly. Thatcher got re-elected in 1983, despite the Tory administration being a total economic basket case, on the back of the Malvinas "war." She managed it again in '87 after beating the miners (and wrecking our manufacturing industry), but that's another story. Orwell foretold it well in "1984." A good strong government needs a constant enemy without. He wasn't being cynical back in 1948, was he. A scenario in which Trump is such an impending failure at home, which he's almost certain to be, driving him to irresponsible adventurism overseas, is hardly improbable, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:01 PM

The U.S. owned Cuba from 1898 to 1959.

Before Castro, Cuba was one of the richest of the 47 Caribbean and Latin American countries, with a Gross Domestic Product that tied with Guatemala's for sixth place. A half-century after the 1959 revolution, Cuba was the third poorest country in Latin America.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:05 PM

Would you care to give us your suggested reasons for that? As it's you, we don't expect you to employ the term "embargo" in your response.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:17 PM

Reagan's glory days

Uh Hunh.

The triumph of dementia. Iran Contra. Cold, dead brains. Trickle-down bullshit.

Of course, the logical successor to a third-rate actor playing president would be tenth-rate a "reality[sic] TV" actor .

Now THERE'S something worth aspiring to.

(vide also "post-truth")

God Help America.

Heil Trump!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:20 PM

The economic statistics come from Solidarity: "an independent socialist organization dedicated to forming a broad regrouping of the U.S. left."

This also from Solidarity: "Cuba and the United States have been economically isolated from each other but, despite the strenuous efforts of the U.S. government, Cuba has not been isolated from most of the rest of the globe. The main causes of Cuba's poverty must surely be domestic."

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:23 PM

HEIL BUBO!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:24 PM

(Gosh, Stevieboy, that wasn't very kind to one of our needy, was it?) So here's a spot of info for bobad about Cuba in the 1950s, the country he thinks was so wonderful before Castro in 1959. Of course, you don't HAVE to believe wiki.

Cuba had a one-crop economy (sugar cane) whose domestic market was constricted. Its population was characterized by chronic unemployment and deep poverty. United States monopolies like Bethlehem Steel Corporation and Speyer gained control over valuable national resources. The banks and the country's entire financial system, all electric power production and the majority of industry was dominated by US companies. US monopolies owned 25 percent of the best land in Cuba. More than 80 percent of farmland was owned by sugar and livestock-raising large landowners. 90 percent of the country's raw sugar and tobacco exports was exported to the US.

In the 1950s, most Cuban children were not in school. 87 percent of urban homes had electricity, but only 10 percent of rural homes did. Only 15 percent of rural homes had running water. Nearly half the rural population was illiterate as was about 25 percent of the total population. Poverty and unemployment in rural areas triggered migration to Havana despite high levels of crime and prostitution. More than 40 percent of the Cuban workforce in 1958 were either underemployed or unemployed. Schools for blacks and mulattoes were inferior to those for whites. Afro-Cubans had the worst living conditions and held the lowest paid jobs.

Yeah, great place to live, bobad. Bring back the Batistas!

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:34 PM

the country he thinks was so wonderful before Castro in 1959.

Yeah, great place to live, bobad. Bring back the Batistas!

Putting words in my mouth again eh Shaw, but that is what creeps like you do to demonize others isn't it? It won't work, we're on to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 05:59 PM

Yeah, great place to live, bobad. Bring back the Batistas!

Well, let's not forget Machado, either- another exemplar of freedom and democracy.

And more slander/blather (blander/slather?) from Bubo- in the absence of substantive dialogue. No surprises there "trolling - its what he does" - see prior threads.

To reprise Tom Paxton, god love him and preserve him; we need him NOW !!

Gotta bomb Castro
Gotta bomb him flat
He's too damned successful
And we can't risk that
How do I know?
Read it in the Daily [Bubo] News

What's old is new again-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:25 PM

As for the oft heard claim of a 99% literacy rate, those unfamiliar with the concept of state propaganda might wish to consider this list of states that make the same claim; Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Moldova, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:36 PM

Yep, Greg, Reagan's Glory Days. Think about that time and how Republicans talk about it. I thought it was the End of the World, but earnest Republicans thought it was the Second Coming of the Messiah - and they still do. And some of them talk about it in apocalyptic terms, which is why I use that language.
It stinks.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:38 PM

Bobad, I think all of us will admit to the problems of the Castro regime. But I think there's plenty of evidence to prove that Cuba's claimed successes in literacy and medical care, are true.

Take a look at the Wikipedia article on the Cuban Literacy Project, which began in 1961. I think it's something that just about any nation could do.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:42 PM

No surprises there "trolling - its what he does"

This is what passes for "substantive dialogue" from the likes of Greg, the master of substantive dialogue.......lol.

I note that whenever someone challenges the dearly held ideologies of some of our more ideologically driven posters with facts, the rebuttal always comes in the form of personal putdown or the charge of trolling. I love it because it tells us that they have no counter argument.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:47 PM

Hmmm. Methinks bobad and Greg_F are near-perfect mirrors of each other - almost caricatures of the extremes.

So, you two, don't talk about each other. Talk about the subject of discussion, or find yourselves suspended for a week.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:48 PM

Cuba's claimed successes

Well that's the kicker, ain't it Joe?

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 06:56 PM

Well, bobad, here's what you said. I'll just put your own words back in your own mouth if that's all right with you.

"Before Castro, Cuba was one of the richest of the 47 Caribbean and Latin American countries, with a Gross Domestic Product that tied with Guatemala's for sixth place."

Now, instead of spewing out your bile before you've engaged your brain, read the wiki extract I included in my last post. Tell me which bits lead you to think that Cuba was such an amazing place for the ordinary people of Cuba before Castro. Oh yes, the pimps and the spivs and the exploitative yank corporations had it good, I won't deny. You are aligning yourself with them. Personally, I'd rather not.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: bobad
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 07:09 PM

Tell me which bits lead you to think that Cuba was such an amazing place for the ordinary people of Cuba before Castro

Again putting words in my mouth. I put up some hard economic facts, make of them what you will but don't try to demonize me by inferring what I make of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Nov 16 - 11:48 PM

So you are not saying that Cuba under Batista was not a much better place than under Castro, bodad? It is rather hard to understand your words in any other way.

"Gross Domestic Product" is an extremely unreliable and controversial measure of how a society is functioning. For example it typically includes the illegal drug industry and prostitution.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 12:13 AM

Bobad - I think you're correct that Cuba had a very strong economy during the Batista regime. It's just that the economy was owned by U.S. corporations, who took all the profits back to the U.S.
Yes, there was a wealthy middle class of Cubans who fled after Castro took over - they followed their employers to the U.S.
According to this article (click) the claims of U.S. corporations against Cuba remain unsettled. The were valued at $1.9 billion when they were certified in the 1960s.
And another article from the Boston Globe.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:15 AM

PRE-REVOLUTIONARY CUBA
LAND REFORM
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 05:15 AM

Long after the revolution, large numbers of Cubans, at great risk, sought to leave.
Remember the Camarioca boatlift and airlift, and the Mariel boatlift.

Such desperation was not seen in other Caribbean states.

Subject: RE: BS: Obit2: So long, Fidel Castro (1926-2016)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 01 Dec 16 - 06:09 AM

"Such desperation was not seen in other Caribbean states.
Not many Carribean states whose president has undergone 330 plus assassination attempts and whose country has lived under a half-century long embargo.
Some people are bound to crack under such strain
PROPAGANDA
PROPAGANDA