BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On

Subject: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On (Pearl Harbor)
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Dec 16 - 11:37 PM

Flags all over the U.S. and its territories are at half staff today as we commemmorate the 75th anniversary.

One of the first international events to go round the world live thanks to radio news. In "Stalag 17" the prisoner spy is unmasked because he inadvertently reveals he was having dinner (in Berlin) when he heard the news. Everyone in America heard about it around lunchtime.

It was a brilliant plan by a brilliant general who didn't believe Japan should start a war with the United States. He'd been to the United States and seen its industrial capacity.
My father was in New York, but the news meant many things at once. It meant war with Japan which meant war with Germany which was okay with him. He ended up being sent to the Pacific islands, and later he was in the occupation of Japan and got a tour of Kyoto, the only city in Japan that was not bombed. He harbored no prejudice and his favorite cousin, who saw action in Europe, married a Japanese girl who could remember the Emperor's surrender speech on the radio. And he had no doubt that the U.S. would win.

I personally do not believe that the Japanese attack was known ahead of time to the Americans. It makes for a nice conspiracy theory but I don't think it happened that way. 75 years ago the Japanese were seizing American and British camps and colonies with great success. MacArthur was chased out of the Philippines and Americans, Brits, Aussies and Kiwis were imprisoned.

So much American attitude has come from the event. Firesign Theatre staged a fake radio interruption to "Nick Danger, Third Eye" where Roosevelt suggests the United States surrender and listen to the end of the radio show. I've met older vets who do not like the Japanese. I personally love Japanese culture and films.

The movie world has not been the same. "From Here to Eternity" ends with the attack, an excellent movie made while the war was still being waged covered Doolittle's retaliatory raid "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" screenwritten by Dalton Trumbo, and a buttress to the idea that there was no conspiracy. The Japanese had been warned by radio of the presence of an enemy fleet but the B-25s were unopposed as they bombed the Japanese home country.

Such is the Fog of War.

Japanese Prime Minister Abe is supposed to pay a visit to the Arizona Memorial towards the end of the month.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 02:13 AM

On Christmas Day, 1941, Adm. Nimitz was given a boat tour of the destruction wrought on Pearl Harbor by the Japanese. Big sunken battleships and navy vessels cluttered the waters every where you looked. As the tour boat returned to dock, the young helmsman of the boat asked, "Well Admiral, what do you think after seeing all this destruction?" Admiral Nimitz's reply shocked everyone within the sound of his voice. Admiral Nimitz said, "The Japanese made three of the biggest mistakes an attack force could ever make or God was taking care of America. Which do you think it was?"  Shocked and surprised, the young helmsman asked, "What do mean by saying the Japanese made the three biggest mistakes an attack force ever made?"  Nimitz explained. :

Mistake number one: the Japanese attacked on Sunday morning. Nine out of every ten crewmen of those ships were ashore on leave. If those same ships had been lured to sea and been sunk--we would have lost 38,000 men instead of 3,800.

Mistake number two: when the Japanese saw all those battleships lined in a row, they got so carried away sinking those battleships, they never once bombed our dry docks opposite those ships. If they had destroyed our dry docks, we would have had to tow everyone of those ships to America to be repaired. As it is now, the ships are in shallow water and can be raised. One tug can pull them over to the dry docks, and we can have them repaired and at sea by the time we could have towed them to America. And I already have crews ashore anxious to man those ships.

Mistake number three: every drop of fuel in the Pacific theater of war is in top of the ground storage tanks five miles away over that hill. One attack plane could have strafed those tanks and destroyed our fuel supply. That's why I say the Japanese made three of the biggest mistakes an attack force could make or God was taking care of America.

In the 1930s two US Naval War games, one in 1932 and another in 1936 proved that Pearl was vulnerable to attack from the air. The Japanese also studied the attack on Taranto, the main base of the Italian Navy, by the Royal Navy in 1940. The Japanese raid on the United States Pacific Fleet did not alter the balance of power in the Pacific in the same way that the attack on Taranto did in the Mediterranean. By June of 1942, a remarkably short time after the attack on Pearl Harbour, the battles of the Coral Sea and Midway reduced the fighting capability of the Japanese Navy to such an extent that it could no longer challenge the USN anywhere in the Pacific. Nimitz had been spot on in his assessment of the situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 06:42 AM

Wonder if thie DAY OF INFAMY will be remembered in four years time?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 07:30 AM

I had the same thought as you Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 08:27 AM

I am sure it will be remembered and commemorated as it is on every significant anniversary.
There will be no agreement on its infamy though.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 08:33 AM

"There will be no agreement on its infamy though."
THere doesn't have to be - the continuing effects on innocent generations confirm it

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 09:47 AM

Then there's the more recent Days of Infamy:

September 11, 1973

March 19, 2003

November 8, 2016

Etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Mrrzy
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 11:05 AM

What bugs me the most about this segment of history, not having lived it, is that I knew about Pearl Harbor *decades* before I learned of the internment of Japanese Americans.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 11:17 AM

"Then there's the more recent Days of Infamy:"
All related, but then again, they will never match up to GREATEST CRIME AGAINST HUMANITY committed in the 20th century, though I am sure there are those who will count heads in order to deny this.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 01:19 PM

The firestorm attacks on Hamburg and Tokyo were worse, even counting the long term effects of the atomic attacks.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 01:38 PM

People die in wars - best not to start them.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Dec 16 - 03:29 PM

"The firestorm attacks on Hamburg and Tokyo were worse, even counting the long term effects of the atomic attacks."
And lasted the duration of the raids
These filthy bombs affected generations of children, deforming them in the womb - their effects are still being felt
"People die in wars - best not to start them."
I suppose that justifies murdering generations in Japan
Sick sick sick!!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Dec 16 - 12:22 PM

The use of atomic bombs could not be foreseen by anyone on 7 December 1941.

Nuclear research development was pursued by the United States, Great Britain, Nazi Germany, the Empire of Japan, and the Soviet Union.

Two atomic bombs were dropped on Japan in August, 1945, before Japan unconditionally surrendered and yielded to peaceful occupation by the Allies, mainly the United States.

Atomic weapons have not been used in anger since. The scale of technical development with nuclear weapons has resulted in weapons of three orders of magnitude greater potential devastation than those used at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

There are several good books about the development of the A and H Bombs. Two of them are by Richard Rhodes.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Dec 16 - 12:55 PM

"Atomic weapons have not been used in anger since. "
Luck rather than humanity - Curtis Le May wanted to "Nuke the Vietnamese back to the Stoneage"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Dec 16 - 01:01 PM

And Trump advocates the use of nuke-u-lar weapons. Just give it time......

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Dec 16 - 03:07 PM

There is another thread running about the Wichita March, which was written to honor a U.S. Cavalry captain who was injured by an arrow in a battle in 1858. In the battle, 50 Comanches and all of their horses were killed. Somebody posted this response" "What a shameful story."

In this thread, somebody posted a message to commemorate the Attack on Pearl Harbor, and the discussion went on for two messages before somebody brought up the atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and the U.S. internment of Japanese-American citizens, and God-knows-what that happened in 1973 and 2003 and 2016.

I dunno. Something seems wrong about all that. In the Wichita story, the focus was on an officer who was nearly killed by an arrow and went home to recuperate. His sister wrote a march to honor her brother, and the march was popular for years thereafter. And while the killing of the Comanches was indeed shameful, something seemed wrong to me about what seemed to me to be an attempt to negate the impact of the near-death of the soldier by one-upping his tragedy with a worse one suffered by the other side.

In the Attack on Pearl Harbor, 2,403 Americans were killed and 1,178 wounded, and 64 Japanese were killed. Most or all of the people killed on both sides, left behind grieving friends and families - and to all of them, this was a horrible tragedy. It is right to recall and study and memorialize this event, especially on its 75th anniversary.

The other events are also horrible tragedies. Each one was a pinnacle of suffering and grief for all the victims. For all of those victims, these events were the worst thing that could ever happen to them. So, I think it's foolhardy to try to negate the impact of an event by bringing up a worse tragedy suffered by the "other side."

Also implied in this one-upmanship of tragedies, is an attempt to comparatively assess blame. Along with that goes an attempt to shame current members of the "other side" for the misdeeds of their forebears.

These are all tragedies, and they should all be memorialized and studied and mourned over - but they should not be compared. And people of the current time should not be condemned for what happened 75 or 150 years ago.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Dec 16 - 04:18 PM

Joe: Thank you very much for putting the thread in perspective. I originally intended to create a space for memorializing the original attack, and I was taken aback by the shifting of the thread to "the other bookend" of the war in the East, when the A Bombs were used to end it. I thought it over and felt that perhaps I had created the opening for it myself by referencing "Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo" and my father's thoughts and experience in Japan at the end of the War. The bombing of Pearl Harbor led him to believe the U.S. would enter the war, and the use of the Bomb at the end of the War he felt perhaps saved his life (and made my life possible).

I personally feel we can commemorate Pearl Harbor by itself without denigrating other events of the war, which should get their own threads to remember their actors and victims.

Since we've passed Year 75 of Pearl Harbor, we shall certainly pass Year 75 of Hiroshima and Nagasaki and the webosphere will reflect this.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 04:45 AM

This isn't "one-upmanship" Joe
One tragedy doesn't outweigh another, but to claim ove as "an act of Infamy" and to ignore the generations-lasting consequences of another is hypocritical.
Why not just describe them all as "Acts of Evil" and work towards making sure that they don't happen again?
As your comments indicate these "Acts of Infamy" have been happening for many centuries - wasn't America built on such acts as 'Sand Creek' and Wounded Knee' - and didn't the continue to happen right through to Me Lai.
Why not call all these things what they are - "acts of gross inhumanity" and stop discriminating between one and the other?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Stu
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 09:37 AM

"And people of the current time should not be condemned for what happened 75 or 150 years ago."

They should not be condemned unless they refuse to recognise that some of our forebears acted wrongly and that for many of those affected their actions and these events are relevant today, their consequences real and they have to live with them. If they don't want to recogniseir that, then condemnation is a valid response (but not the only response) to their intransigence/ignorance.

Although this is of course a tragedy for the individuals and families involved they are part of an event and timeline and their suffering cannot be separated from, and context matters. The Cavalry officer shot by an Indian was pursuing a deliberate and vicious campaign of genocide against people whose land they were stealing; events which are still relevant to those First Nation folk fighting to retain what little hasn't been taken from them (see Standing Rock, I'm guessing singing the Wichita March there would provoke a reaction). His suffering is incomparable to that of the people he was persecuting, and celebrating his survival whilst indians lay dead in their own camp and who were fighting for their way of life and land is extremely distasteful. Would you sing a song about a Black and Tan who was injured whilst terrorising and killing innocent Irish? Or perhaps a ditty about the guards of Belsen or Buchenwald who were hanged after the war, for they suffered a horrible death too? You'd get a pretty robust response to that in most places, and quite rightly so.

For modern people living in a society temporally distant from these events this process of confronting the actions of our forebears requires facing some pretty uncomfortable truths and accepting a degree of responsibility for those actions, including understanding the consequences of the actions are still felt today. It's the only way for a society to grow and hopefully reconcile with those who were wronged in the past.

Jim's assertion that the dropping of the bombs on Japan was the greatest crime of the 20th century is debatable, but it was a consequence of the attack on Pearl Harbour, as was the horrific suffering of so many people in the Pacific theatre. In that context, it's hardly "one upmanship", and it's reasonable to reflect on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 12:10 PM

Better the Japs were given a devastating biffing.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 03:20 PM

"Better the Japs were given a devastating biffing."
There speaks The Voice of America
"Jim's assertion that the dropping of the bombs on Japan was the greatest crime of the 20th century is debatable"
It is a crime that has effected generation after generation for over 70 years
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 05:45 PM

So you are saying that avoidance of the deaths of perhaps up to a million US soldiers in finally defeating Japan would have been more acceptable??

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:28 PM

Seems to me it's just one-upmanship, Jim. It's a cheap shot. Your posts clearly attempt to downplay the significance of the Pearl Harbor event, in which thousands of young sailors were killed.

The implication in your statements is that Pearl Harbor isn't worthy of commemoration, unless it's accompanied by self-shaming breast-beating. There will be plenty of opportunity for that in August, 2020.

You seem to thrive on demonizing propaganda. It gets old. Have you no sympathy for the sailors who died in December 1941? Is it just another propaganda opportunity for you?

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 10 Dec 16 - 07:39 PM

You seem to thrive on demonizing propaganda. It gets old.

Tell me about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 04:34 AM

"Your posts clearly attempt to downplay the significance of the Pearl Harbor event,"
I most certainly do not Joe - I just say that it rateds no higher or lower than any other "Day of Infamy" I have mentioned.
It really is about time we stopped celebrating/commemorating these things as nations and acknowledge what they really are - no different that dropping obscene weapons on civilians, or blitzing cities like London and Dresden or pooring burning petrol and toxic chemicals on vietnamese peasants and driving them into their homes and setting fire to them - all acts of gross inhumanity.
It is you who is displaying one-upmanship by making a special case for Pearl Harbour
They are all indecent acts - everly last one of them, and until we recognise that fact they will continue to happen.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 04:49 AM

Drivel again Jim Carrolling!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 04:59 AM

"Drivel again Jim Carrolling!!!!!"
Usual response from the usual inarticulate people Bozo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 11:07 AM

I appreciate your appreciation!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 11:26 AM

Me too Bozo
You always manage to convince me that I'm on the right side - The absence of your one-line trollisms would worry me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:23 PM

I have gathered quite a few over the years!!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:39 PM

SundayReview /Opinion / NY TIMES
Which Date Should Live in Infamy?
By JON MEACHAM
DEC. 10, 2016

excerpt:
"The story of America's entry into World War II three-quarters of a century ago offers us a window into the contingencies of history and the perennial risk that the nation's isolationist tendencies — tendencies once more evident in our politics as the president-elect of the United States in 2016 revives the old slogan America First — can be durably potent even in moments of existential crisis."


http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/10/opinion/sunday/which-date-should-live-in-infamy.html

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 03:22 PM

"They are all indecent acts - everly last one of them, and until we recognise that fact they will continue to happen.
Jim Carroll"

We already recognize that fact and they keep happening. This is the futility of insight.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 04:24 PM

60 million human beings died in WW2, and 40 million more were displaced. The way they died may have been instantaneous, lingering, cruel, obscene, deliberate or incidental. No one event can be singled out or commemorated without considering and deeply pitying the victims of all the others. Each death hurt and agonised the immediate family of the deceased. Multiply that by 60 million. Appalling isn't it?
However, some of those events were frankly evil and showed human beings in the worst possible light as monstrous and wicked. I have my own ideas as to which events they were...

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Joe Offer
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:59 AM

Stu says: Jim's assertion that the dropping of the bombs on Japan was the greatest crime of the 20th century is debatable

I think I'd agree with Jim's assertion. I think that many or most Americans would agree that the dropping of atomic bombs on Japan was indeed the most horrific thing that has ever happened in the history of humankind. I certainly think it was.

Still, the attack on Pearl Harbor was a tragedy, as was the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center. We humans need to remember and honor all these tragedies, and not try to lessen one by bringing up another. December 7 is a day to remember Pearl Harbor, nothing else. September 11 is the day to remember the attack on the World Trade Center, nothing else. These two dates should be respected as times for Americans to mourn those lost in these two great tragedies. Other nations have other days of mourning. Those days, too, must be respected.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Stu
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 05:19 AM

I don't disagree that dropping the bomb was a crime, but was it a greater crime than the holocaust? To me, the Holocaust seems a greater crime and thinking about this has made me question why I think this, but perhaps this thread isn't the place to discuss it.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 05:52 AM

That's a very interesting comment Stu. And also Joe's. One can't really compare atrocities. One can count the dead, examine the methods of extermination, judge the mindset of the perpetrators etc. But it all boils down to Man's Inhumanity to Man doesn't it? Whether it's one man against one, or a whole country against another. And I suppose motive comes into it. My father used to say it was 'necessary' to drop the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or the Japanese would have continued to torture and starve their prisoners of war, and bombing Germany helped to bring the war to a close. He had no qualms about any of it, and thought pacifism and over-fastidiousness about killing rather lily-livered and weak. I just don't know. One can't give enemies free rein, but nuclear warfare, 'ethnic cleansing' and concentration camps etc are still barbaric and, in my opinion, evil.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Andrez
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 06:07 AM

I agree with Senoufou and Joe too!

Cheers,

Andrez

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 06:30 AM

"and showed human beings in the worst possible light as monstrous and wicked"
Would agree with come of what you say, but would adapt this to "and showed OUR LEADERS in the worst possible light.
Human beings don't make war - our elected representatives do - and stay hat home while we do the killing and dying.
"This is the futility of insight."
And not doing anything to change it.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 07:41 AM

Were our leaders wrong to make war on Hitler's Germany Jim?
The people overwhelmingly supported it, as they did with German aggression in WW1.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Senoufou
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:13 AM

Ah, but a leader on his/her own can't do much in the way of killing can they? And the death camps, for example, were managed and run by a myriad of people. Must have been to successfully exterminate 6 million Jews. I totally agree that Everyman was ordered to kill and maim by a leader, but couldn't Everyman have refused? It's very difficult to take a standpoint on this. Would I be brave enough to flatly refuse to participate in killing, and risk execution by firing squad? Probably not. But then, my actions would be forever on my conscience.
And when/how does one decide to take action to defend one's country and territory? What counts as 'fair tactics'? Military battle? Killing civilians? Nuclear attack?
This applies in a very small way in everyday life too. How much should one 'turn the other cheek' or should we be proactive in demanding our rights and respect?
I've always found these questions very difficult to answer. I studied Moral Philosophy at Uni as a side-subject, and never did manage to come to any conclusions!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:15 AM

"Were our leaders wrong to make war on Hitler's Germany Jim?"
Been here before Keith
The rise of fascism was preventable but mainly ignored by Britain until it was too late - some leaders, Churchill included, described Hitler's Germany as "the bulwark against Bolshevism".
Britain did nothing to stop the rise and when there was an opportunity to do so in Spain, those who had a try were penalised and described as "premature anti-fascists - and given MI5 records for their bravery.
Of course the people supported it - when there was no alternative to do otherwise, but the point remains, British people had no quarrel with German people - politicians and big business cause wars - not human beings
We've been through this ad nauseum and I have no intention of doing so again with you and nausing up another thread
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 11:02 AM

September 11 is the day to remember the attack on the World Trade Center, nothing else.

Wrong, Joe.

You seem to have forgotten Kissinger's Coup - which resulted in a significantly greater loss of human life and greater amount of human misery.

This ain't an attempt to "compare/equate atrocities". Its stating fact. There's more to the world than the U.S. of A.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 01:19 PM

"Kissinger's Coup"
Estimated dead of Chilean coup
15,000 killed and 2,000 disappeared.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 01:37 PM

The irony is that, for Britain, Pearl Harbour was a very positive development. Churchill wrote later of that day "I went to bed and slept the sleep of the saved and thankful,"

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 01:03 PM

What Pearl Harbor and the dropping of the A bombs and the Terror Attack on the World Trade Center and 7/7 and the Election of Trump, have in common is that they were sharply definitive.

There was a day before (of nostalgic innocence), the day of (What happened, can you believe what happened?), and the aftermath where everyone discusses or argues what it all meant.

The rise of Fascism, the Concentration Camps, the current conquest of Aleppo are also definitive, but not so sharply. There are more events to choose from and each is less individually comprehensive. Which Trump rally made the difference? Was it the rise of fundamentalist Islamic preachers in the London mosques that seeded 7/7? The publication of Mein Kampf that led to the Camps? Lenin's attempted assassination that led to Stalin? The Wannsee Conference that led to the Final Solution?

A "Day of Infamy" is not that common a thing. That's why the dates themselves become a reference.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:19 PM

Some Brits expressed pleasure at Pearl Harbour for forcing America into the war - as sick as that seems.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 02:12 AM

In the closing days of 1941 - I would have thought the expressions would be more accurately described as being more of "relief" than of "pleasure".

FDR had already bent every rule he could, as far as he could to help Great Britain. With the USA's entry into the war on the allied side it guaranteed the outcome and shortened the war.

As with every instance and event in the past you have to have some understanding of what those who were living through it felt and perceived the situations and circumstances they found themselves in.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:28 PM

I'd be careful of framing the British reaction as pleasure when it was clearly relief.

More definitive fallout:
Here was more convincingly a case of pleasure

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 03:05 AM

"I'd be careful of framing the British reaction as pleasure when it was clearly relief."
There was definite pleasure as I understand it, still re-echoing in sayings like "Over-sexed, overpaid and over here" a year later.
Not the way allies should have been behaving
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 10:31 AM

The way allies were actually behaving

Usual lack of perspective from a well known usual suspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 10:41 AM

"Usual lack of perspective from a well known usual suspect."
Usual sanitised view from the self-appointed spokesman for the establishment line.
THE OTHER SIDE OF THE STORY
As I have made clear (for all who care to listen), I take no view on this - I merely point out the reality of the situation.
Carry on camping!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 11:21 AM

Enjoyed the link Jim - totally risible - not surprised that you would believe it, not surprised at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 11:38 AM

thetruthnews.info

Lololololol!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 12:48 PM

VIEW FROM THE TOP
In Britain, meanwhile, few people had anything but contempt for Americans for absenting themselves from the struggle against Hitler. 'I have little faith in them,' a Battle of Britain pilot wrote. 'I suppose in God's own time God's own country will fight.' But he wasn't holding his breath.
Hitler
Little faith: The British despised the Americans for not joining in the struggle against Hitler
Bitterness and suspicion came from all levels of society. Lord Halifax, Britain's ambassador in Washington, admitted in private that 'I have never liked Americans.' Many Tory MPs shared his distaste. One wrote: 'They really are a strange and unpleasing people. It is a nuisance that we are so dependent on them.'
Even Churchill was heard to refer to 'those bloody Yankees'.
Yet he perceived with a clarity that eluded most of his fellow countrymen that U.S. aid was the only thing that would make an Allied victory over Hitler possible. On its own, the best Britain could do was to avoid defeat. Not until the U.S. joined the war could winning be a realistic aspiration.
Thereafter, Churchill wooed, flattered, charmed and strong-armed the United States with consummate skill as he fought to persuade Americans to set aside their caricature view of Britain as a nation of stuffed-shirt sleepy-heads and to see her people instead as battling champions of freedom.

Or this interesting aspect (can't clikeie)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/world-war-two/12035018/Revealed-How-Britons-welcomed-black-soldiers-during-WWII-and-fought-alongside-them-against-racist-GIs.html

CONFIRMED by THIS

All somewhat different from that of somewhat conservative East Anglia
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 01:05 PM

I suspect that even if the Americans hadn't come in, the Russians might in the end have beaten Germany. But it would have taken longer - and if in the meantime if Germany had succeeded in developing atomic weapons...
......
One point worth considering is that the essential reason why the attack on Pearl Harbour was called a "Day of Infamy" was that it was carried out without any declaratiin of war. But these days it seems there is no such thing as a declaratiin of war, by any country. Wars just get started without any such formalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 01:33 PM

Good Heavens Jim - YOU - Quoting an article by Sir Max Hastings in the Daily Mail??? After all your arguments as to what a charlatan he is.

As for the other link The Heretical Press I'd advise folks to take a look at it their Home website and make your own minds up.

You must be desperate indeed Jim.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 02:26 PM

Jim Carroll post of Date: 15 Dec 16 - 12:48 PM

has a link "CONFIRMED BY THIS" to an anti-semitic wacko website. I question anything in or linked from this website.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 03:05 PM

"to an anti-semitic wacko website"
If it is, I apologise,
I make it an article written by an anti monarchist who occasionally writes for the Guardian
Unfortunately, the term "antisemitic" is thrown around like confetti since Israel monopolised it to defend its war crimes.
Doesn't matter anyway - the racism among G.Is reall doesn't need confirmation - it's a well-established fact, known also by the Daily Telegraph
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 03:36 PM

Trump couldn't have done it better, Jim.
The non apology apology, the utter unconcern with one's sources because one is sure of the assertion of 'fact-like objects'.
Signs of the times.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 07:27 PM

"The non apology apology, "
It was a qualified apology - don't be ungracious, there's enough of that on this forum
I usually check sites I quotebefore I draw from them - I did on this occasion and I found what I said I found
You can accept that or not - you are also free to provide proof for what you claim - in which case, my apology stands and I withdraw my reservations
Otherwise, I assume all this is about avoiding the points I put up on how the G.Is were regarded - perish the thought!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 08:38 PM

Jim: This was your link:
http://www.heretical.com/smith/w,war2.html
which was a screed by author Graham Smith from his book (see below)

I went to the 'root' http://www.heretical.com/ which was titled "The Heretical Press" and had several sections attributed to Simon Sheppard. The FAQs for Simon Sheppard are mostly concerned with his views on women. But the third Q and A were:

http://www.heretical.com/sgs-1998/faq-etc.html

Question: Are you a Nazi?
Simon says: No. Hitler was Austrian, and hence had no right to lead Germany. But Hitler's writing about 'The Big Lie' certainly seems a good appraisal. Churchill was a chronic drunkard, in hock to the Jews and instigator of the "terror bombing" of civilians; Roosevelt was a non-entity and cripple with a chip on his shoulder, also completely in the Jews' pocket; and Stalin was a malformed Georgian psychopath. Of the four dominant men in that insane period of World War II, Hitler was definitely the best of the bunch.


Sheppard has several screeds on various Jewish subjects, he seems to draw a real bead on Anne Frank who was both a Jew and a Woman.
Meanwhile, the quotation you linked to was from author Graham A. Smith "When Jim Crow Met John Bull" published in the 80s and about the large amount of American black enlisted men who were sent to Great Britain among the host of American troops in general. It is supposed to be groundbreaking history but I can't find any other references or reviews of it.
So while your 'author' mightn't be a prejudiced person, he confirms nothing, and the source of linkage most certainly is a prejudiced person, and how.

Got my eye on yah, J C.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 04:05 AM

Jim Carroll - 15 Dec 16 - 03:05 PM

If it is, I apologise,

No effin' IF about it!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 04:18 AM

Brings 'em amm together in a pack, doesn't it
Take it like a man Teribus - who knows, there might be other times!!
Robo.
I should not have selected that particular site and would not have done had I realised its nature - I was wrong for doing so.
But that does not alter the point I was making - racism was endemic among American serviceman and, as the Daily Telegraph article says, it was a cause of friction between wartime British and Americans.
Perhaps you should apologise for refusing to comment on that fact - let's see, shall we?
Hurry up - I can hold my breath for only so long!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 04:47 AM

INTERESTING PIECE HERE
I apologise in advance if I the New York Times is antisemitic
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 04:59 AM

Now instead of lashing out right, left and centre, in a rather poor attempt to "big up" your take on things, why not try applying a bit of perspective and look at the whole picture.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 05:20 AM

"why not try applying a bit of perspective and look at the whole picture."
Exactly what I've done, instead of using the selection of an iffy writer as an excuse for not facing facts
How about you responding to the fact that your extremely rare link was utter romanticised twaddle?
Might be good start
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:00 AM

"How about you responding to the fact that your extremely rare link was utter romanticised twaddle"

Ah you mean reference to Jackie Stewart's degree dissertation that was recognised as being such a unique social history of the area and period that was so well critically peer-reviewed that she was persuaded to publish it as a book?

Your links on the other hand came from a paper you regard as being right-wing fascist mouth piece owned by the descendants of Lord Rothermere Hitler's biggest fan and written by a man you regard as a journalistic hack possessing no credentials at all as a historian. Your second link from "The Heretical Press" a rabidly anti-Semitical website. The third from the NYT is primarily concerned with application of the US military code of justice within the European theatre of war during the Second World War.

Perspective and the whole picture?

British, American, Canadian, French, Polish, Czechs, Dutch and Norwegian forces all based in Great Britain trained together, co-operated and fought together against the armed forces of Nazi Germany and succeeded in liberating western Europe from Nazi occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 07:00 AM

The picture you presented was romantic twaddle in the face of the facts.
The discussion here is about how G.I.s were received by the Britons during WW2 and how they actually behaved.
It was an observation made in passing on my part which has developed into a denial and defence of verified facts - I certainly had no intention of taking it further - you people have highlighted it.
The fact that those links were from right wing papers was exactly my point - if I had put up left-wing links you would be up on your chair with your skirts up screaming "mouse"
Where do you put The New York Ties - fascist right or lying left.
You don't only refuse to give information , but you attempt to suppress and smear it when it doesn't suit you.
You have no case - as usual - hence the old usual bluster
You want to disprove the facts - produce facts of your own - though it's noticeable that the few times they have they have invariably blown up in your face
You have my apology for inadvertently using a bad site - you will continue to milk that slip dry because, basically, you lack both the imagination nor the knowledge to do anything else.
You are as transparently pathetic as those you run with
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 12:17 PM

"The discussion here is about how G.I.s were received by the Britons during WW2 and how they actually behaved." - Jim Carroll

No it is not, that is the slant you introduced in your post - Jim Carroll - 15 Dec 16 - 03:05 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 12:52 PM

My first statement was this - "Some Brits expressed pleasure at Pearl Harbour for forcing America into the war - as sick as that seems."
13 Dec 16 - 02:19 PM
It developed from that when people like you tried to disprove it - it was an accurate description of the situation, as my examples have shown.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 01:52 PM

The Japs were arguably as hideous as the Nazis as far as WW2 atrocities are concerned..................

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 08:11 PM

"The Japs were arguably as hideous as the Nazis as far as WW2 atrocities are concerned"
And your persistent trollism caps them both
Grow up, for fuck's sake - you impress nobody from your cowardly anonymity
Any moron can cyber-troll - as you have amply demonstrated
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 03:07 AM

Jim Carroll - 16 Dec 16 - 12:52 PM

"My first statement was this - "Some Brits expressed pleasure at Pearl Harbour for forcing America into the war - as sick as that seems."
13 Dec 16 - 02:19 PM
It developed from that when people like you tried to disprove it - it was an accurate description of the situation, as my examples have shown."

But Jim reading through your linked "examples" they seem to indicate the exact opposite of the "Brits expressing pleasure".

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 04:18 AM

But terribus
As those who can would not hear a bad word sploken about America, I decided to check something I had always believed, I was inspired to check - and guess what!!!
THere's a lesson to be learned by those who are not content to let sleeping dogs lie, doncha think?
I was quite happy to go on believing what I did and lo and - behold, it was worse than I imagined.
You should have left it where it was, shouldn't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 08:16 AM

It seems that like numerous other raving lefties, anyone who doesn't agree with Carroll is a troll - well what a surprise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 10:02 AM

"anyone who doesn't agree with Carroll is a troll anyone who doesn't agree with Carroll is a troll "
No - anybody who behaves in a cowardly hit-and-run manner with your racist statements if a troll
You've been awarded a badge for it Bozo
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 12:45 PM

Oh dear, the "usual suspects" are no longer challenged on this forum by just a few. Jim Carroll's default position as always is to lash out blindly. Carroll you are a liar, a bigot and a racist.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 04:25 PM

That is the default position of ideologues, their lies are continually debunked, leaving them with no rational challenge to overwhelming evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 05:07 PM

This is a pretty pointless squabble. I would suggest there is no actual dispute about facts.

The attitudes of people in Britain towards Americans - and vice versa - were varied and inconsistent during the war, as in fact they still are. Liking, disliking, admiration and contempt, gratitude and resentment - even within the same people. For every example of affection you can find hostility, and the other way round. That's how human beings deal with each other. Pretending it's all one way is just foolish talk.

It was natural that Pearl Harbour, and the subsequent declaration of war on the USA by Germany, was seen by people in Britain as a welcome development, in the same way that Germany's invasion of Russia was. In neither case would this have had any basis in ill will towards those countries, rather than in a recognition that these were favourable to Britain's hopes of survival. But in both cases there would have been an element of satisfaction on the part of some - so much for American non-involvement and for the Nazi-Soviet Pact.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 03:44 AM

Very well put Kevin, I agree entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 04:01 AM

as always is to lash out blindly.
I put my position clerly at the beginning - I told it as it was - it was you who lashed out by denying the facts, as has been shown.
Mac puts it perfectly, which is a long way from your Americans being welcomed with open arms.
The fact that you chose to lash out led to my producing things I hadn't realised - I suppose I should be grateful, but I'm sure that wasn't your intention.
I've learned something from this - I have no doubt you have not.
Now - let's move on
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 05:04 AM

Have you read the same MGOH post that I did Jim? What part of this did you fail to understand:

"It was natural that Pearl Harbour, and the subsequent declaration of war on the USA by Germany, was seen by people in Britain as a welcome development, in the same way that Germany's invasion of Russia was. In neither case would this have had any basis in ill will towards those countries, rather than in a recognition that these were favourable to Britain's hopes of survival.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 06:47 AM

"What part of this did you fail to understand:"
None of it, just the contradictory (and very rare) link you put up.
"The way allies were actually behaving
Usual lack of perspective from a well known usual suspect. "
Which bit of that did I fail to understand?
Contradicting yourself seems to be one of your fortes
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 04:09 PM

Continue your flapping and floundering Jim - quite amusing.

the subsequent declaration of war on the USA by Germany, was seen by people in Britain as a welcome development

Nicely sums up the Alpha and Omega of the matter.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: bobad
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 04:26 PM

Carroll appears disappointed that Germany was defeated by the allies.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 16 - 04:45 PM

J C is acting as a troll and obviously enjoys rolling in the muck with those he draws in. I will come back to this thread when I have something to contribute to the TOPIC.

Subject: RE: BS: Day of Infamy 75 Years On
From: robomatic
Date: 25 Dec 16 - 02:51 PM

Prime Minister Shinzo Abe is going to visit Pearl Harbor, Hawaii as reported in The New York Times.

I remember my own visit to the Arizona Memorial some time ago. You have to go out there in a Navy launch. In my case it was made memorable that there were German tourists along and the boat was steered by a young black female ensign.