BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !

Subject: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 05:09 AM

Beware USA. Theresa May does not present as a bully. Whereas Trumpy....

Just heard a story on BBC R4:
An aide had remarked to our new Prime Ministress "I can't believe how much your trousers cost"
the reply came swift "Your job". And she is now one duly sacked aide.

The price of the PM's trousers was the subject of speculation recently.

Hold on tight folks, Brexit is going to be one hell of a roller coaster!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:04 AM

Like the old story of Thatcher dining out with her Cabinet
She orders steak and when asked, "and the vegetables?" by the waiter taking the order, she replies, "They'll have the same"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:28 AM

Spitting Image sketch Jim.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:41 AM

That's bloody funny is that one, Jim. Never heard it before! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: G-Force
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 09:30 AM

Actually a very old joke. We told it at school in the early 60's, long before Thatcher, in a sick and non-PC form which I wouldn't repeat now.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 09:35 AM

They were showing the top ten banned-by-the-BBC records on TV last night and the tenth one was 'Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead'. I could see the point at the lack of 'grief' by large sections of the population at Mrs Thatcher's demise, but a person had died and presumably her family was very sad, so in my view it was right not to play the record, in spite of it heading up the charts.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 10:04 AM

" but a person had died and presumably her family was very sad,"
Wonder if they were as sad as all those miners whose livelihoods she destroyed (not to mention the many thousands of people she laeft unemployed and left homeless when she dismantled British Industry.
This piece of work was a sl=elf declared fascist when she described the mass-murder of Chilean youth as her kind of democracy.
She needs to be remembered for what she was - I bet Trump reveres her memory.
Don't care how old the joke is - it is very funny
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Stu
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 10:36 AM

May's trousers cost £995. Why people think a tory would be insensitive and bullying is beyond me.


""but a person had died and presumably her family was very sad"

What sauce for the goose; although I didn't buy it because I don't like celebrating the death of a person. I can fully understand why others did. I'm sure the likes of Carol and Mark Thatcher didn't suddenly start giving a shit about what us proles think just because she'd popped them.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 11:33 AM

"I'm sure the likes of Carol and Mark Thatcher didn't suddenly start giving a shit"
Her going seems to have left MARK THATCHER'S arse well covered.
I don't usually celebrate the demise of an individual, but I'm willing to stretch a point this time
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 12:14 PM

Why people think a tory would be insensitive and bullying is beyond me.

excuse me, I was highlighting the insensitivity of one Prime Ministress to the point of sacking one of her chosen for honest enquiry.
Extrapolating that to a cohort of politicians is not in the OP. But Trumpy has far more form so it is up to the reader to decide on a case by case basis. How many cases can you spot?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 01:07 PM

Jim,employment in the coal industry declined from 1 million in 1908 to 6,000 today. To blame Thatcher for the demise of uk coal mining is a bit of a gross simplification. Cheaper sources of energy were coming to the fore, as were cheaper imports. Coal mining is also the most dangerous industry, apart from the long term health risks such as silicosis. Some would also argue the unions were attempting to usurp the role of government and no government will tolerate that. To say Thatcher could have done more to help mining communities is a fair criticism but to say she killed the mining industry is simply not true..

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 01:26 PM

"To blame Thatcher for the demise of uk coal mining is a bit of a gross simplification."
Not really Iains
There's enough documented evidence to believe that The Miners Strike was deliberately engineered by her and McGregor to break the Unions - read 'The Enemy Within (The secret war against the Miners) or The Miners' Strike by Geoffrey Goodman.
Miners strike aside, the destruction of British industry by the Thatcher regime has left Britain totally dependent on foreign goods and jobs
I was there and saw things happening on a daily basis and, being from the North of England, know exactly the effects and who was efected
My family is still feeling the results of those balmy days!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 03:18 PM

To quote my old boss's boss:

"Power corrupts, but it absolutely rocks."

Doonesbury Strip from the 70s, about Mao-tse Tung (MauzAyDong?)

"Speaking of vegetables, how is the chairman?"

"There is chaos in heaven, and his pulse is normal."

That second line became a byword for questioning normalcy for a few years.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 04:33 PM

I would say that to rise high in politics one is probably already slightly corrupt. Once in power, it must be practically impossible to resist the goodies one has access to.
African republics are a good example. Laurent Gbagbo of Cote d'Ivoire and at the moment Yahyah Jammeh of Gambia have milked their countries for all they're worth while in office and in both cases refused to leave when voted out. Their families have been housed in flagrant luxury abroad in Europe. Corrupt hardly begins to describe it. I don't believe there's a single African leader who is pure as the driven snow.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Senoufou
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 04:35 PM

Ha! That should say Yahya Jammeh!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:04 PM

I agree with your last post Iains, but trying to explain politics on this forum is bashing your head against a brick wall.

This place is all about social non issues. I never voted for Mrs Thatcher but she was a brilliant PM for this capitalist system, that is what these people don't understand, they vote consistently for "reformist capitalism" yet don't seem to grasp the fact that it is a profit based system which to survive demands ruthless efficiency, which in Mrs Thacher's case involved the winding up of most of the UK's manufacturing and heavy industry.

The only way to avoid it would have been to adopt a socialist system with Tax rises and lower wages for everyone especially the middle class.....I suppose all the ex-teachers, medical consultants and college graduates on here would be rushing to vote for that....bloody hypocrites.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 06:53 PM

You are absolutely in denial, Iains. Thatcher hated the unions and set out to bust the industries in which they were strong. As plain as the nose on your face. Once that was done and dusted she set out to deregulate the City and the banks in order to give them total free rein. Compliant capitalists were far better for Tory Britain than manufacturing industries with those pesky union leaders. She was the biggest vandal ever to be let loose on this country, even worse than Beeching, rot him. What a shame that New Labour rode the same wave. For ten years with them it was meretriciously hunkydory (though don't ask the poor, who saw the wealth gap ever widening). Then look what happened. Rampant, unregulated Toryism wrecked the planet. Thanks for that legacy, Maggie. I for one was happy to see you go to join the choir invisible. I didn't dance in the street but I definitely raised a glass.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:06 PM

Steve Shaw wrote: Thatcher hated the unions

A convenient rallying call but not a truth. The Minor's Union declared the intent of bringing down the Government. As a response to that the Government had a duty to it's electorate to defeat the Minor's Union. Any other response would have been a dereliction of duty. It's true that Thatcher had played the long game. She had seen the damage that the Unions had done to Ted Heath's government and postponed the conflict until she had stockpiled sufficient coal reserves. The minors could have stepped back from the brink but they did not. Had the Minors won the UK would have ceased to be a democracy. Would you prefer that?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:13 PM

Had the Minors[sic] won the UK would have ceased to be a democracy.

Say what? What about the Majors?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: robomatic
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:20 PM

To me politics is not necessarily corrupt but for someone such as Thatcher to obtain political control over you lot took some sort of skill, so politics I think has been accurately described as "The art of the possible."

One of my favorite reads is the Lives of Plutarch, which contains stories/bios fully as wild as anything we have seen in our lifetimes.

This stuff isn't all happening for the first time, just the first time with nukes.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:25 PM

I would say that Barack Obama did an admirable job in a position of power, given the circumstances - and I do not believe he was corrupted in the process.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 Dec 16 - 08:48 PM

I agree, Joe, though his "power" seemed forever compromised. There's a nice piece on Obama's legacy in the Saturday Guardian. I don't understand how to make links to such things but a good google should get you there.

Stanron, that is just utter revisionism. Simplistic in the extreme. There is no way that a miners' victory would have ended democracy and you know it. That's almost as bad as Mother Teresa saying that abortion was the biggest threat to world peace. On top of that, I'd suggest that Thatcher was more than happy to see Heath wallow in his inept handling of the miners. Can't argue that the miners adopted brilliant tactics, but the very fact we can talk about tactics in an industrial dispute into which the government waded demonstrates a failure of the government to engage with its workers in a constructive dialogue. Which is their job. And if you don't think that Maggie hated trade unions, try explaining away the mass of anti-trade union legislation that she instigated.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Teribus
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 02:33 AM

Both Stanron and Iains have given you a fairly accurate and objective picture of the "Nation v the Miners/Militant Trades Unions". Trades Unions exist to fight the case and look after the rights and working conditions of their members - they are not there to challenge the Government of the Country elected by the people of the country.

Most idiotic thing stated on this thread so far, considering that as Akenaton says we live in a capitalist economy, belongs to Steve Shaw:

"Thatcher hated the unions and set out to bust the industries in which they were strong."

The EU which all the "usual suspects" seem to support had rules related to Government subsidies keeping industries afloat. Perhaps Steve Shaw can detail how profitable the NCB was. Perhaps he can tell us how much the NCB cost the country per day just to keep going and then he can explain what the law of diminishing returns is and how following it results in a situation that is unsustainable and ruinous for all.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:36 AM

The traditional heavy industries were in decline and had been for a considerable time. Thatcher inherited a problem ignored by at least the four previous PMs of both persuasions. She solved the problem and rationalised the system. So far automation has only wiped out unskilled jobs. Hear the screams when traditional white collar jobs evaporate due to computerisation. Much by rote teaching is better done in front of a computer. Do we really need all those flag waving sandal wearing teaches?
De regulation is another matter entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 04:34 AM

The word should of course be teachers above(before the man with the impeccable keyboard skills corrects me-again)

Steve Shaw. The idea that the Prime Minister of a capitalist country would deliberately set about destroying a vibrant part of the economy just to poke a union in the eye is a quaint idea even for you, and patently ridiculous. The industries were dying anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 06:24 AM

"The traditional heavy industries were in decline and had been for a considerable time."
Due largely to lack of investment
Britain had a fine shipping, textile steel and manufacturing industry but in order to maintain them needed good management and investment.
It became more profitable to buy shoddy abroad - that is what happened to British industry (described as "crap" by a contributor to this thread)- not natural selection.
The various governments of both hues supported the dismantling of British industy so, while the world was maintaining and establishing industrial bases, we were giving ours away without a regard for those who it would effect the most the workers in those industries.
The point we have reached is epitomised by our approach to textiles - we fill our shops with cheap goods produced in death traps of factories for pittance level wages - british jobs have disappeared and we are placated by blaming economic migrants who are coming to Britain to escape conditions we have helped to create.
One of the effects of Britain's de-industrialisation policy is the massive and growing gap between the HAVES and HAVE-NOTS in Britain.
The 'disappeared' industries were nort replaced with new ones to and the somewhat limited voice the worker had won for himself over the centuries was silenced, so they had no say in what was happening to their lives.
The benefit system was totally undermined, making it virtually impossible for many breadwinners to support their families an notice of dismissal was replaced with zero contracts
Higher education has been placed out of reach of the average British family by the introduction and gradual increasing of fees
Security of tenure destroyed by Thatcher's 'Right to Buy' con.
The only thing we have left from Labour's 1940s gift is a health service that staggers from crisis to crisis because of underfunding and concentration on bureaucracy rather than health care.
No industrial base - a dependent nation with no secure future.
Britain's highest export, as things stand, if finance - to the tune of 30 odd percent
A Britain to bring children up in!!!
THATCHER'S HATRED OF TRADE UNIONS
"I agree with your last post Iains, but trying to explain politics on this forum is bashing your head against a brick wall."
One more posting by someone whose entire input is in attacking other's conceived politics without offering a shred of argument - how can you when your postings seldom exceed three sentences of text
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 07:00 AM

Does every politically-based thread on Mudcat have to come down to a discussion(?) about Thatcher?

The opening question is general and one which,by and large, I agree with.

There are exceptions, Barrack Obama is quite possibly one of them, but there are far more examples where it's true. Robert Mugabe, Chairman Mao are two candidates.

How about a discussion as to whether or not this is the case and, possibly, could it ever be different?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 07:02 AM

Obama was a a one-off. A rarity. But it has to be said, the measure of the man is that the weight of expectation was upon him. He delivered.
History will re-write his stature but it will have a hard time diminishing it.

FWIW I came across an American song called "Pneumoconiosis Blues".

BTW Miners suffer from pneumoconiosis (in America Miner's Lung), pottery workers silicosis (silicon dioxide being the principle irritant there). I have a little experience working in coal mines. The militant nature of the workers did not square logically with consensus politics. Certainly in King Arthurs demesne. If that man hadn't had (not even covert) aspirations in Westminster and Thatcher had not had a clear majority.....................

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:26 AM

"Does every politically-based thread on Mudcat have to come down to a discussion(?) about Thatcher? "
Where relevant yes - she was the nearest Britain ever got to a Fascist head of state - that fact alone makes her totally relevant to this topic
Why should she not be part of this discussion?
Discussion

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 08:58 AM

she was the nearest Britain ever got to a Fascist head of state - that fact
That wording makes clear that you do not consider that she actually was a fascist head of state, so why even introduce the term into the conversation?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:23 AM

"The traditional heavy industries were in decline and had been for a considerable time. Thatcher inherited a problem ignored by at least the four previous PMs of both persuasions. She solved the problem and rationalised the system. So far automation has only wiped out unskilled jobs. Hear the screams when traditional white collar jobs evaporate due to computerisation. Much by rote teaching is better done in front of a computer. Do we really need all those flag waving sandal wearing teaches?
De regulation is another matter entirely."

Hmm. What a pity you didn't pay a bit more attention to your sandal-wearing teachers. You might have avoided all those errors of grammar and punctuation, and your assessment of recent history might have turned out to be a little more sound as well.

And I see from Teribus that the only way to assess the success or otherwise of an industry is by measuring how much profit it makes. The greater good of the country can go hang. Still, as long as we don't mind relying on unstable foreign regimes for our energy supplies...

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:42 AM

Still, as long as we don't mind relying on unstable foreign regimes for our energy supplies... The alternative used to be allowing the unions to hold us to ransom by withholding fuel supplies.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:47 AM

Jim. Part of the discussion - yes, but these things seem almost always to become virtually entirely given over to discussing Thatcher, and very little of it is new. So we get nowhere

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:55 AM

I would say that Barack Obama did an admirable job in a position of power, given the circumstances - and I do not believe he was corrupted in the process.
-Joe-

I agree. And it's because Obama understands the limits of executive power. Even when stonewalled by a recalcitrant Congress, he has not overstepped his authority. Yes, one or two of his executive actions have been shot down by the courts, but that's part of the give and take between the governmental branches. The executive powers enumerated in The Constitution are few. Most have been established by judicial decision or legislative action. (i.e. the ability to wage war: The Constitution specifically grants the authority to declare war to Congress, but Congress has ceded much of that authority to the President. The US has not fought in a "declared" war since WWII.) I don't believe Mr. Obama has taken an executive action which he knew beforehand was beyond the limits of his authority.

I fear that the person slated to replace him has no such understanding. I think he actually believes the US President can do pretty much anything he wants, and I don't see him surrounding himself with advisors who are likely to tell him otherwise. The first time Congress refuses to rubber-stamp a Trump legislative proposal, or the courts declare one of his executive actions unconstitutional, he is going to seek a work-around. He's a person who hates to lose, yet he has sought and accepted a job in which nobody ever has or ever will win 100% of the time. He will seek to win at all costs, legality be damned.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:58 AM

"That wording makes clear that you do not consider that she actually was a fascist head of state"
She would have been had she been given the opportunity - but she made her position quite clear whan she described Augusto Pinochet's mass murder as democracy, held a rally in his support and described the British politicians who put him under house arrest while it was decided whether he should stand trial of "running a police state" - "from the mouths of babes and politicians", so to speak.
Thatcher put the welfare of the miners as an excuse for closing the mines as an afterthought - it was never the reason, and even if it was, you don't close down an industry around which many communities have been built for many generations and not replace them
Thatcher's concern for the miners was demonstrated perfectly at Orgreave and was reiterated by the present government's refusal to hold an enquiry, which occurred five years earlier than Hillborough and still has not been fully investigated.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 10:56 AM

I think he actually believes the US President can do pretty much anything he wants

As does his White House Counsel, and his Cabinet of Turds.

Remember the Republicruds' whining about Obama's "unconstitutional excesses of executive power"?

You just couldn't make this bullshit up.

And you ain't seen nuthin' yet.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 11:58 AM

"Holding the country to ransom" is Daily Mail parroting and has been for decades. If anyone holds the country to ransom it's big companies who constantly threaten to pull out, forcing us to let them pay less corporation tax, and the mega-rich who have taken everything and who have armies of accountants to make sure they give nothing back. Sort the tax evaders out and the deficit would disappear overnight. But we can't do that, because, why, they're holding us to ransom! But you'd rather think that it was the bloke with poor wages who knackers himself underground every day in filthy, dark and dangerous conditions just to keep your lights on who's holding us to ransom when he fights for better conditions and a wage rise, using the only tool in his armoury, his labour. You have a very peculiar way of looking at things to say the least.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 12:31 PM

"ransom"
By closing down industries wholesale and forcing skilled tradesman and craftsmen to take lower paid, lower skilled jobs or receive no unemployment to feed their families is the most viciously inhuman form of "holding to ransom" there is.
I would strongly recommend a visit to Ken Loach's 'I, Daniel Blake' to see an accurate depiction of what is happening in Britain today.
Holding Britain to ransom - my arse.
If incompetent and avaricious bankers can receive massive government bailouts from the public purse which they use to pay themselves obscene rewards for clearing up the mess they have made of the national economy - why cannot workers demand reasonable wages for the work they do well?
Talk about double-standards.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 02:50 PM

Mr Red.
Thanks for the correction.

http://thorax.bmj.com/content/53/5/398.full

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:12 PM

Hmmmm mr Shaw we are being sanctimonious today, Is that you in full schoolmaster mode. If so please spare us.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 03:46 PM

I'll spare everyone else except you, in your case until you stop being so pretentious. The only reason you can write anything at all is that you had teachers. It seems that you were a bit too obsessed with their footwear for your own good.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Dec 16 - 09:14 PM

My dad always used to refer to the attitude of people who dissed teachers as also-rans and who claimed that you could "get your degree in Common Sense at the University of Life" as the cult of the philistine. Seems that Iains has finally signed up with the great cult leader Teribus.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:03 AM

Another leader who wasn't corrupted by power was Mikhail Gorbachev. I'm also impressed by the fact that Gorbachev loves to sing. (click)

And one could certainly argue that Nelson Mandela and Desmond Tutu never showed any signs of corruption, despite the fact that the African National Congress has had much corruption. And Winnie Mandela proved corrupt, too.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Teribus
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 02:36 AM

Just as well then Shaw that, according to you, the coal mines were closed (Far more were closed under Labour than were closed by the Conservatives) so that the following is now no longer the case:

"the bloke with poor wages who knackers himself underground every day in filthy, dark and dangerous conditions just to keep your lights on"

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 03:20 AM

There is another saying Steve. It has a far greater ring of truth. Those that can, DO. Those that can't, Teach.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 03:37 AM

Why is it that anyonre taken to task for ridiculous statements counter attacks with personal insults? Is it because they have run out of anything sensible to say?
Hello Steve. Are you listening?
I have introduced a couple of spelling mistakes for you to correct, just to make you feel better. Then you can jump back into that little cocoon that you have convinced yourself is reality.
I actually feel quite sorry for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: BobL
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 04:09 AM

I seem to remember, just before Thatcher's premiership, something called the Winter of Discontent. Didn't the Labour government virtually bankrupt the country trying to keep the old industries afloat? And the unions - the ones that got the publicity at any rate, although we must take empty barrel syndrome into account - weren't much help.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 04:15 AM

" so that the following is now no longer the case:"
Why on earth not - does it matter which bunch of self-serving politicians destroyed the mining communities and left them without livelihoods?
The mess that these people have left the British workers in is the same, whoever was responsible.
RUINS LEFT by THATCHER
I watched 'Mandela, Walk to Freedom' last night - what a brave, dignified man - I seem to remember Mrs T (Augosto Pinochet's favourite democrat) described him as "a terrorist".
Funny how opinions differ!!!
How I'm happy to remember her
Jim Carrroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 04:22 AM

Those of you in the United Kingdom have had your Mrs. T. I predict she won't hold a candle to our Mr. T. He hasn't even taken office yet, and already he's a national embarrassment....

Tweet!!

Maybe Maggie would have been worse if Twitter had been invented by the time she was in office...

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:04 AM

Those that can, DO. Those that can't, Teach (GBS to Mrs Patrick-Campbell)

Hmmmm ......... & just for the humour:
Those that can't teach, teach teachers.
We elect the rest!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:15 AM

Thing is though, Joe, some of the relatively virtuous wielders of power you've mentioned - Obama, Mandela, Tutu, Gorbachev - for various reasons to do with the vicissitudes of their time enjoyed compromised power only. Maybe that's the way it should be. The horror that was Thatcher made sure via her undoubted charisma that she was surrounded by a cabinet of brain-dead sheep. That gave her in her own mind the illusion of near-dictatorship, at least within her own party. She was starting to forget that she was living in a democracy. Like most people of that ilk, she eventually miscalculated and was brought down in the end by one of those erstwhile "sheep." John Major after her lacked the charisma to bring it off and was eventually driven to castigate the "bastards" in his own ranks. Blair was a far better politician (I use that term in the very narrow sense). Cleverly, he handed the poisoned chalice he'd created to Gordon Brown in the nick of time.

Trump starts with a clear run and a ton of hubris. Let's hope that his inevitable miscalculation comes sooner rather than later.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:26 AM

Iains, I would hardly call anything you've said do far as "taking me to task." Of course, teachers are easy meat for the ill-educated. You've demonstrated a fair bit of failure of focus here, along with a less than fully-literate writing style, that makes me suspect that you should have listened more at school. I've been called a bitter ex-Catholic a few times. Perhaps there's such a thing as a bitterly-ungrateful ex-pupil, typified by you and Teribus, who feels the need to constantly attack those with whom they failed to cooperate in school, stooping even to ridiculing their footwear (you haven't mentioned leather elbow patches yet, by the way). I have this mental picture of you and Teribus sitting on the back row in class flicking bits of paper at each other, in between bouts of more personal distractions...

The last person I knew who used to proclaim loudly that he didn't need no education because he'd learned all his common sense from real life died of alcoholism. It's true!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 05:34 AM

Thatcher's cabinet were in awe of her, I have seen it said that they were attracted in the bizarre sexual way that is the human condition. Not Eggweena, she wasn't and was a threat.

Lighten up folks and remember: "She was only a grocer's daughter but she taught Sir Geoffrey Howe"

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 08:17 AM

Well I've been a teacher all my life. I have never worn sandals to school. I am not an ardent liberal. I am not illiterate nor do I write ungrammatically. I have learnt much from the so-called University of Life in addition to a real University, having travelled extensively and met all types of people in many lands. I can definitely 'do' as well as 'teach', even though I have actually taught teachers. I would say I have quite a large experience of life.
There are many kinds of teachers, some similar to me, others very different in outlook and character. One can't stereotype the profession, or generalise.
I would say I had a true vocation to teach, and I am proud of that. Please do not insult me.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 09:53 AM

Well said, but I wouldn't worry about the insults too much. People like Iains and Teribus who hurl stereotypes around about teachers are saying a damn sight more about themselves, generally negative stuff, than they are saying about the poor old teachers who had to endure them at school. Quite often it's all about their personal failures along the path of learning. I've met my share of good, average, poor and utterly inspiring teachers, at school, at university and as a teacher myself. It's a diverse profession that is very resistant to being stereotyped. Of course, you can't tell some people that. When people unreasonably diss teachers online, my favourite evil pastime is to pick holes in their posts in order to show that they should have listened harder at school... 😈

And I do admit to wearing sandals. Nothing to do with my wanting to conform to the stereotype, everything to do with the fact that I'm a hot-bodied sort of chap.

Down, girls!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 09:59 AM

Actually, Senoufou, the country with the highest-achieving pupils in the world, Singapore, also lays great store by the quality of its teachers. Only the very best people in their fields get to stand in front of a class. "Those who can, teach!"

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:04 AM

Trump starts with a clear run and a ton of hubris

And a cabinet of brain dead sycophants, racists, billonaires and science-deniers..

Keep yer heads down.........

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Senoufou
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:10 AM

Thank you for that Steve. And interesting that you have a 'hot body' :)

I'm accustomed to it now, but I used to get a bit cross when my young sister, quite rightly, received respect and admiration for being a doctor, while I hardly dared admit to being a teacher.

It's odd about the stereotype, because I've had many colleagues over the years, a diverse selection, and I'd find it hard to categorise them in any way. Some were young and keen, some a bit older or set in their ways, all had differing political loyalties, some were deeply religious,others atheists and so on. No professional group can be stereotyped.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 10:33 AM

" I have never worn sandals to school. "
Referred to affectionately as "Jesus Boots" in my home town of Liverpool
Off topic completely:
Lovely observation by Liverpool teacher, Peter Moloney, who actually put together an album of them in the 1960s
Two schoolboys waking past Childwall Abbey in South Liverpool, encountered a bearded, bald monk, in monkish regalia,
One enquired (in very broad Liverpoolese "Ey father, were you in the Ark?"
Ourages, the monk replied, "Of course I wasn't boy"
"Why weren't you drowned then?"
Sorry for the interruption.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 11:02 AM

It's a diverse profession that is very resistant to being stereotyped. Of course, you can't tell some people that.
You can tell anyone that. Some may not believe you, but that doesn't stop you telling them.

Remembering Father Kenny Martin, my physics teacher, who, if asked "Can I go to the toilet" would carefully point out the difference between the pupil's ability, and the teacher's willingness to grant permission.

If you didn't wish to be unduly delayed, you would learn to ask "May I go to the toilet".

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Dec 16 - 12:09 PM

That is depressingly common. It's perfectly fine to ask if you can to the toilet. It's better not written down that way, though. Teachers who indulge in that silliness are legion. Confronted with that response you'd be right to feel irritated.

When I say you can't tell some people that, it means that some people just won't take it in. I think you already know that. I'm not writing legal documents when I type stuff here and it would be better all round if you avoided that kind of nitpicking, thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:09 AM

So Mr Shaw can nit pick to his heart's content but:" and it would be better all round if you avoided that kind of nitpicking, thank you."

A case of do as I say not as I do is it? Of course you are the font of all knowledge being a teacher, although judging by you actions here your pupils must have found you as insufferable and sanctimonious as I do.

You must have an ego the size of a bus trying to dictate what others do, or think on this forum. With your conceit I would have thought you would create your own blog instead of trying for the world record of ranting on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Joe Offer
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:22 AM

Mr. Red ses: Thatcher's cabinet were in awe of her, I have seen it said that they were attracted in the bizarre sexual way that is the human condition.

Wait! Wait! Wait!

I'm not sure I can handle this. Margaret Thatcher as sex kitten?

And Steve Shaw with a "hot body"?

Maybe the two of them were meant for each other....

Then again, maybe not. ;-)

And then where do we fit Donald Trump into this conjugation?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:26 AM

On a nitpicking home run. If I may. can I?
Language is all about communicating ideas. Sender & receiver need a common set of concepts. Not that common on this thread!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Stu
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 04:39 AM

"Margaret Thatcher as sex kitten?"

Believe it or not, true! It's odd, but men were attracted to her and more than a few found her... sexy. There's no accounting for taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 05:24 AM

"I'm not sure I can handle this. Margaret Thatcher as sex kitten?"
Didn't you see the wonderfuls cartoon depiction of Sexy Maggie and Beefcake Ronnie taken from the
GONE WITH THE WIND poster Joe?
As big a classic as the film
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 05:54 AM

I am surprised Winston Churchill has not had a mention yet. Now there was a hands on man.
Sending troops to Tonypandy to sort out striking miners.
Sending   troops to end the sidney street siege
Creating the Dardenelles fiasco WW1
mobilising blackleg labour to break the dock strike in the 20's
He is reputed to have said during the General Strike: "a little blood-letting" would be all to the good
Recommending using poison gas on Iraquis
All this before becoming Prime Minister.

No wishy washy PC behaviour from him. He saw the problem and pursued the solution. Even during his wilderness years his rhetoric was a force to be reckoned with.

Today he would be treated as a pariah. He was a man of his time.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:13 AM

I can (may?) nitpick if I like. So can you. Good idea to be careful how you nitpick. Even MGM Lion once nitpicked me, to his cost!

Fortunately, Joe, my hot body syndrome didn't set in until Maggie was well past it. The twain never met.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:38 AM

"He saw the problem and pursued the solution. "
Summed up beautifully when he and others described Nazi Germany as a "bulwark against bolshevism"
Who was it said we get the leaders we deserve?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 07:09 AM

I am not quite sure what you are saying there Jim. Are you saying that had Nazi Germany not existed that the capitalist societies of western Europe would have peacefully coexisted with Bolshevism? I think the different ideologies would have clashed at some point. Perhaps you hold a different view.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 08:42 AM

Iains
Capitalism waged war on Bolshevism from day one - 24 countries sided with the opposition forces in the Russian civil war, spying and sabotage was legendary for those old enough to remember, the serial 'Reilly, Ace of Spies' was based on a real individual.
The fact is that Russia had little chance of succeeding anyway - a massive Empire spreading from Europe into Asia, largely feudal, no industries to make an easy transition from capitalism to socialism.
The revolution was sparked off by the soldiers walking away from the war and the people pissed off with the conditions the war had caused.
The alternatives they were given was to go back to the front and put up with starvation (and keep the Tzar) or change society - the Bolsheviks won the argument with their slogan, 'Bread, Peace and Land' and embarked on a massive job of uniting the disparate groups and building first an army and then an industry - hampered by civil war within and outside interference.
Ideally, Germany should have been the first to attempt to change society, but their revolution was crushed, the leaders murdered and fascism eventually took over.
That fascism was welcomed by the western leaders as an opposition to any change in the international status quo hence the "bulwark against Bolshevism" policy.
All a bit simplistic, I'm afraid but 'The Kings Depart' is a wonderful gap-filler
It's always fascinated me that the father of fascism in Germany was 'Noske 'the basketmaker'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 10:35 AM

Jim, thanks for that clarification. Maybe it is me but I found your previous post a little cryptic.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 11:31 AM

"Maybe it is me but I found your previous post a little cryptic."
Sorry - I thought you were around when we discussed this last time - one of my favourite periods of history.
These subjects need to be examined in full context of what was happening elsewhere when "A spectre was haunting Europe — the spectre of communism." as Marx put it and the Empires had reached the point where there was no more places to conquer.
Ireland has been commemorating the first wobble of the domino this year - a fascinating time to be here.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 01:38 PM

Let us hope that the first wobble over here remains just that. Brexit could potentially open old wounds and create mayhem.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Penny S.
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 05:06 PM

I think the teacher problem stems from different experiences at school. Everyone of us had at least one abomination of a teacher who was useless at teaching us, and possibly took against us personally for some undefinable reason. Only some of us had an inspiring teacher who overcame that negative image.
If I had only come across the ones who did me down (one even had me creating sick days because I couldn't stand her - and I didn't realise it was because I was sensing what she felt about me), and not the ones who supported me, I too would have had a negative attitude. And I wouldn't have joined the profession, and wouldn't come across the occasional ex-pupil or parent who remembers me with kindness. (I am worried about the lad who claims that I am the reason he joined the profession himself, though.)
It is very sad that there are so many who did only come across the bad apples. and more so that they see fit to slag off all of us as their inferiors.

And, by the way, it can help not to be able to do certain things in order to teach them. You have to analyse what the problems are and thus are able to communicate to the children how to overcome them. I had maths teachers who were brilliant at their subject but absolutely useless and dealing with people with a blind spot. And I still don't know how to distinguish different minerals by their reflectance when seen down the microscope, because the tutor could only explain that things just were what they were. He could tell at a glance, but could not put into words what he was seeing.

And those who can't teach teachers, inspect.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:24 PM

Penny S
I think you hit the nail on the head with mentioning the ability to communicate. This surely is the key to good teaching.
Despite my tongue in cheek jibes at teachers I was lucky that I had teachers that for the most part were good and a couple that were excellent.
Your last statement about the microscope I can relate to. I initially had great problems with optical mineralogy for similar reasons. Now with inbuilt cameras the view can be displayed on a screen and properties can be clearly seen and annotated. It is also very handy when out in the boonies. With a satellite link you can upload images to anywhere and it saves a whole bunch of scribbling and cuts straight to the chase.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:33 PM

Good stuff, Penny. A doughty yet very honest assessment of the profession. And I see that enough of us have now leapt to the defence of teachers to get Iains to backtrack on his earlier rather inane parroting of Teribus's misplaced sarcasm. I won't dwell. I wore sandals in Truro today.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 06:50 PM

Well Steve among your other failings would appear to be both the ability to read and comprehend. It must be time for you to have your hot chocolate and go bed.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Dec 16 - 07:09 PM

You're frustrated, Iains. Bite your lip and try not to show it. Yours sincerely, sandal-wearing*, Guardian-reading, soft pinko liberal couldn't-do-so-had-to-teach-instead abject retired teacher.

Nice to see your Damascene conversion! Do 'ave a word in Teribus's shell-like...

*without socks. Call me anything you like but do NOT accuse me of wearing socks with sandals. Unless you want 100 lines and half an hour's detention, that is.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 02:17 AM

Actually Shaw if you look back through the posts, you will discover that you have the cart before the horse. It was Iains who described your view as that of a person (and I paraphrase) with a view seen through the rose tinted glasses of a sandal wearing teacher, etc, etc. I rather liked it as it seemed very appropriate and accurate representation of YOU specifically NOT teachers in general.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 02:59 AM

"Let us hope that the first wobble "
Think you missed the point Ians
It was the first wobble that brought down the system of Empire - that's done and dusted.
As far as British/Irish relations - trouble will threaten as long as the border remains -
Old law of history - draw a line across a country and you create two potentially warring sides.
The line was beginning to disapear - Brexit came along and reminded people it was still there, hence the politicians running round like blue-arsed flies trying to repair the damage.
Brexit was the most divisive thing to happen within Britain, certainly since Thatcher's creating the North/South divide in England - which has got worse rather than better.
****** Brexit - I was at a Ballad conference in Limerick shortly afterward with a group of people from different countries - all asking "Why/"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 04:16 AM

Permit me (as if you could do otherwise!) An observation.

But there is a certain power in forums (like we enjoy in this parish) that allows us to say what we want via the internet. And we are not corrected immediately. Indeed we could troll. Not return to the thread. If that was in a pub, the threat of a glass of beer in our faces (let alone a glass) would temper our delivery somewhat.

throws hat in ring and retires swiftly................

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but we do see a lot of that freedom being expressed hereabouts, and not necessarily uncorruptedly either.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 04:24 AM

???
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 04:56 AM

Jim, I think history will not be as harsh on Mrs Thatcher and her legacy as you are. Geology and Geography dictated the growth of heavy industry where it occurred. Initially by water, later to sources of raw materials(classically Ironbridge) Power generation was by water, wood and coal with coal becoming paramount. Post WW2 the landscape started to change rapidly and the changing economic climate hastened the decline of heavy industry. Many mistakes were made and investment squandered (TSR2 and Blue streak) The world class aircraft industry immediately post war should have been rationalised far sooner. The same with the car industry. Beeching rationalised the railways.
Huge structural adjustments were made over several decades.It can be argued if it was by design or purposeful neglect by government.Any industry that cannot compete must either die or be subsidised. It is debateable if additional investment would have enabled the survival of certain industries or merely postponed their inevitable closure. No one denies the impact it had on communities through the loss of employment and lack of apprenticeships. Where successive governments failed was in the fact that pathetic attempts were made to retrain workers and little effort made to create alternative viable employment opportunities. From the time north sea oil and gas came on stream there was a source of funding that could have changed the landscape in the north, Clydeside and S. Wales. It was a wasted opportunity by successive governments and Thatcher was just the last in a line of politicians that abandoned entire communities.
Could more have been done? Certainly.
    However forward planning by a government can only stretch as far as the next election and the long term problems are kicked into touch for the next 4 year cycle. The sad thing is that right on the horizon is potentially the biggest structural change in industrial history.
Robots have already automated many assembly processes. Numbers employed in banking are shrinking daily as most banking transactions can be done online.
    Much of the run of the mill white collar employment can be replaced by computerisation as soon as the software is created.
How many solicitors do you need when a comprehensive data base can be interrogated. One can do the work of ten. I would argue that teaching, accountancy and many other professions will face a dramatic shrinkage of payroll in the near future as computers take on the mundane tasks far more efficiently.
    Does Government ever talk about this, or even plan for it, or be looking at creating alternative business models and employment opportunities?
      The only thing I see that suggests the government see a problem over the horizon is the increasingly paramilitary appearance and behaviour of the police and the politicisation of the Head of the Metropolitan Police. This has gone on since the days of Robert Mark back in the early 70's
      If employment is the glue that holds modern society together the future road would seem rather rough and rocky and it certainly wont end in Dublin.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 05:47 AM

"Jim, I think history will not be as harsh on Mrs Thatcher and her legacy as you are. "
Being interested in history, I believe it has ways of sorting out the wheat from the chaff once the toes that stnd to be trod on have shuffled off
Thatcher was in essence a self declared fascist - she described the mass murder of opponents "democracy" and attempts to punish those crimes as "running a police state" - that's unequivocal enough for me.
She came to power on the slogan "labour isn't working" and proceeded to raise unemployment levels
She destroyed industries and left nothing in their place
Under the legacy she left behind technical progress is a threat rather than a benefit - can you possibly claim that advanced technology has proved a benefit to the majority of people in Britain?
Thatcher formalised the class differences in society, used them for the benefit of the wealth and began to dismantle the safety nets that workers had fought for for over a century.
Under her leadership, homes became potential investments, the rights to a voice in your place of work virtually disappeared, industry disappeared and was not replaced and greed was made respectable.
No amount of hindsight is going to justify what Britain has become and what part she played in making it
Just in case you believe I have any more time for irish politicians - forget it - Irish politicians are just as crooked and incompetent as are their British counterparts when let.
We have an electoral system that to some degree slow down their incompetence and corruption - but it can't stop it.
I am British born - that is how I describe myself when asked culturally it is what I am - I live here from choice, not by an accident of birth.
Don't tell me about the British Police, who admitted to institutional racism and did little more - go ask the Lawrence Family
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 05:58 AM

Maggie's destruction of the mining industry in particular and of trade unions in general was entirely ideologically-led. The long-term upshot of that is a bogus high-employment statistic (betrayed by the fact that productivity refuses to go up) that forgets to tell us that millions of jobs are now enforced "self-employed," part-time, temporary, seasonal or, worst of all, zero-hours contracts, and that vast numbers of unemployed young people are not allowed to claim jobseekers, instead forced on to fake apprenticeships where they will learn how to make tea and sweep floors. Every part of this is directly attributable to Thatcher's "legacy." That is the culture that she promoted, ruthlessly. We now live in a country that makes very little and which relies on an out-of-control "financial sector." We rely largely for our energy on outside sources, not all of which we should feel happy with. Millions of us are standing up in clothes that were all made in China. Catastrophically, Blair did nothing to reverse the trend, riding as he did a rather lucky wave of fake prosperity (Fake? He oversaw a massive increase in the gulf between rich and poor) until the whole unregulated house of cards collapsed in 2008. That's all Thatcher's legacy, mate. The icing on the cake was her cosying up to Reagan's detestable regime and her support for PInochet. She cultivated an extremely selfish devil-take-the-hindmost society so successfully that the country stands by as thousand of sick people are stripped of their benefits and thousands more are arbitrarily "sanctioned" (nice euphemism for having the bread taken out of your mouth) by arrogant jobsworths at job centres for the most trivial of bureaucratic transgressions. It all makes Scargill and Red Robbo look like a bunch of angels in comparison. Many large companies with respectable names that may be sewn into your underpants won't even recognise trade unions at all, their employees now at the mercy of management-led "staff associations." Come a long way from Grunwick, haven't we? All Thatcher's legacy. I'm all right Jack and sod the rest. Especially if they're sick, unemployed, mentally ill, old or foreign.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 07:31 AM

Jim both you and Steve make interesting points. But:

Good Governance requires a strong opposition to make the ruling party accountable, otherwise it will ride roughshod over everyone.
The government as an entity will survive no matter what the social cost. Do you seriously believe all the propaganda thrown out about the war on terror or is it just a subterfuge to enable the government to keep tabs on the citizenry. Why is this paramount? Is it because government sees a future when they can no longer hide the fact that jobs are evaporating far faster than they can be replaced? Could it be they are scared? It is very convenient to have Mr Putin as the neighbourhood bogyman as an excuse curtail freedom and spy on everyone. They have looked at the future and to quote the add, If it is bright and orange it is probably from flames fanned by an outraged citizenry.
We cannot return to the days of the Luddites, we have built a technological civilisation. The concomitant result of this is that as systems get more complex they require far less manpower and become far more vulnerable.
    Neither of you appear to distinguish clearly between economic cost and social cost- two very different entities.
What could be, should be, would be are entirely different animals when considered from the social and economic perspectives.
    There are conversations that should be in the public   domain to indicate why certain decisions are made and what social costs are attached. Unfortunately we have a political system where integrity and accountability are alien concepts and tomorrow is regarded as the same as yesterday and last year...... and forward planning is simply to be re elected. How does society remain cohesive when unemployment is rife and ever accelerating. How do people remain engaged, housed and fed?
    The low hanging fruit of cheap fuel has already been plucked and squandered, the climate is changing and further accentuated by human activity. We are destroying our environment and society is gently coming to the boil. We have massive migrations occurring because of drought and war(many of which revolve around energy and it's distribution)
      You can be certain that government is aware of these things.
What you should be asking is what are their nefarious plans for us?
If you feel certain sectors of society are being abandoned now,where do you think we will be when the scenarios above kick in?
It will nor be Mad Max but you can be sure it will not be utopia either.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 08:36 AM

"Good Governance requires a strong opposition to make the ruling party accountable"
Not sure of where Thatcher stands in this description
Good government has to work for all, not just the privileged, as it does now - and has, with a few notable blis, always done.
If it is not accountable to all, it has to be made to be - in my opinion, only a change in how they are elected and how accountable they are have to be built in to aby democratic system.
How are people to remain engaged?
A good start might be to make them engaged in the first place - they most certainly are not at present
You mention the Luddites - a perfect example of an entire voiceless class attempting to defend itself - brave, if muddle-headed man and women with an eye to their starving families.
I can agree with much of what you say, but it lacks conclusion and it is somewhat confused- how to change things and what to?
Survelence happened long before the artistically-named "war on terror" - and excuse to find out what we are doing and saying.
Terrorism has become a meaningless convenient label
The poor of the middle east and Africa who protested all became "terrorists" when they got no help and took things into their own hands - genuine terrorists took advantage of the support we never gave - now all are "terrorists" and monsters like Assad are on our side in the "War on Terrorism", backed by a Russia that has been "freed from Communism" - that's how nonsensical the term has become.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 12:08 PM

This thread has regressed into drivel.
"Maggie's destruction of the mining industry in particular and of trade unions in general was entirely ideologically-led."

Of course it was ideologically led, for fuck sake she was Prime minister of a capitalist economy, one which you twerps have voted for all your lives, her job was to make it profitable.
It wasn't Maggie's fault or even the swine Blair's fault....it was your fault; you intelligent well educated people should know that is how capitalism survives and when it can no longer survive it moves on as it has done now.....We can look forward not to regeneration but to third world status unless we wake up, curtail our wastefulness and start a bit of forward planning.
That is the trouble with the "liberal" left, whinging and complaining constantly....always somebody else's fault while living your comfortable lives on pensions that most of you never did a days proper work for.

Iians I applaud your posts, you are a great addition to the forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 12:53 PM

"This thread has regressed into drivel."
It certainly has now you've arrived
""liberal" left, whinging and complaining constantly..."
Spoken like a true "socialist"
"her job was to make it profitable."
For the already wealthy at the cost of working class jobs and standards of living
Socialist my arse
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 01:03 PM

You weren't doing too well before, Iains. Now you're in real trouble. Akenaton's become your best mate! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 01:05 PM

Now if we can just convince CowFart to put his oar in......

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 02:03 PM

Too late, Greg. They've already made friends on another thread, the one about panicking about getting hit by a fireball sent from heaven! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 02:19 PM

Mr Shaw you really must hide your jealousy, it is becoming embarrassing

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 02:27 PM

Oh, I know. I keep harassing myself with the thought "with friends like Iain's...."

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 02:58 PM

"you really must hide your jealousy, "
Please don't disillusion me by suggesting that anybody should be jealous of being friends with you - or anybody.
It really isn't what we're here for.
I have little doubt that Steve was being ironical - I hope you were.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: akenaton
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 03:24 PM

"Steve was being ironical"......irony requires a sense of humour and a little intelligence, neither of which Mr Shaw seems to possess.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 03:24 PM

I would certainly hope so too!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 03:40 PM

Well I'll just have to come over all enigmatic and tell you two silly buggers to work it out for yourselves, won't I. Get a grip, Iains. As for you, Ache, I always take great comfort from your criticisms as it proves I'm doing something right.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Dec 16 - 07:22 PM

".irony requires a sense of humour and a little intelligence, "
And honesty requres responses to point - none from you Ake - just dishomest and distortion of the English language
"I would certainly hope so too!"
Glad to hear it - you srike me as being better than that.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Iains
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 04:51 AM

Jim I would hope context would distinguish clearly when I am being serious and when I am having a little dig. Unfortunately some project a persona that positively invites retribution, as I have found out.
Such is life!

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 05:56 AM

""liberal" left, whinging and complaining constantly..."
Spoken like a true "socialist"

Jim lad, As I have repeatedly tried to explain, a true socialist is never a member of the "liberal" left. You people have no intention of changing the economic system....you are all much too comfortable for that; better to live out your days whining about the marriage "rights" of sexual minorities, our "duty" to accept unlimited numbers of economic migrants and suchlike nonsense.

I think they call it "posturing" but in modern parlance its paucity is betrayed by "transparency".

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:15 AM

You may have tried, but you have never actually managed to explain anything to anybody. You are one of the most confused people I've ever encountered, and, as you once again reveal in your post, you spice your confusion with both ignorance and bigotry. Detestable.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:27 AM

"As I have repeatedly tried to explain, a true socialist is never a member of the "liberal" left"

A "true socialist"? What does this mean exactly? Sounds like the sort of reductionist claptrap you'd expect from the alt-right; a term vague enough to mean nothing but sound a bit dismissive of people who hold a different opinion.

Socialism's a broad church, so what makes a "true socialist" would be interesting to know. Certainly not someone who supports Trump, Farage and Putin. C'mon Ake, enlighten us.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:44 AM

"Jim lad, "
For Christ sake Ake - can you not coome up with something better than an invention of a raving troll
Grow up.
" a true socialist is never a member of the "liberal" left."!
Your claim showsd an ignorance of the term liberal and of my politics.
I have asked you to identify your "socialism" - you refuse
I have asked you your opinions on basic socialist beliefs - you refuse to respond
You claim you don't have to be left to be socialist and contemptuously refer to "lefties" (having thrown a hissy-fit when you were accused of doing so)
You are not a socialist - I have never counted national socialism as anything but a misnomer - that is what you are.
You appear to be incapable of posting without displaying your homophobia
You never ever answer questions and you have ben exposed as aserial liar.
You are a mess - you are certainly in no polsittion to tell others what they are when you don't seem to know what you are
If you have anything to say on this subject, do so, but get out of my ****** hair - you are becoming a stalker.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 06:44 AM

Oh God, don't encourage him, Stu.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 07:12 AM

You gotta call out the alt-right.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 07:53 AM

"You gotta call out the alt-right."
Agree absolutely Stu, but from personal experience, these eejits are only worth so much time.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 10:56 AM

I know none of you are socialists and certain none of you have voted for or been members of a Socialist Party, but surely you are aware of the main tenet of socialism, which is the replacement of the capitalist economic system?

You are a bunch of pseuds, you walk the walk....etc.

I have been a member of a socialist party for most of my adult life.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 11:17 AM

I know none of you are socialists

How?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 11:26 AM

By the what they write and by the things they feel they have to defend GregF

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 11:50 AM

Ache's hand up your back, Mr T?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 11:55 AM

No, GregtrF, it is YOUR head up your ass.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 12:25 PM

"the main tenet of socialism, which is the replacement of the capitalist economic system?
That is a non sequitur - of course that is what it is - the question is TO WHAT State Capitalist, Fascist, feudal, nomadic rural... what a crass statement.
Socialism is a system run by the people as a whole, answerable to all and for the benefit of all.
It is, by definition - a left movement
The extremist right-wing philosophy you have persistently propounded runs exactly counter to all of these, if fact, you have dismissed them as undesirable or impractical.
You may have been a member of Socialist organisation all of your life, but you have learned nothing.
Perhaps you might clarify your stance by pointing out where we can find it documented and accessible.
Trump's Socialism - a sick joke?
I doubt if you know what any of us here have been members of or voted for and it is arrogance worthy of Teribus to make such a statement
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 12:46 PM

No, GregtrF, it is YOUR head up your ass.

Jeri?

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 12:50 PM

Sorry, GregtrF,

You have demonstrated that is where you keep your brain, where it can't be exposed to any reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Stu
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 01:20 PM

"but surely you are aware of the main tenet of socialism, which is the replacement of the capitalist economic system?"

You sure about that? There's more than one strand of socialism, you can't reduce such a diverse and disparate political creed into a single definition.

"I have been a member of a socialist party for most of my adult life."

Means nothing Ake, not a thing. It's actions, opinions and intent that attract us to whatever interests us, and I see nothing in your posts that indicates a disposition towards socialism.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 05:39 PM

I think you are getting confused Stu......don't you really mean

" I see nothing in your posts that indicates a disposition towards "liberalism"?   I regularly promote socialism on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: akenaton
Date: 16 Dec 16 - 05:42 PM

If the confusion does not clear up try reading some of the views of Jim Sillars, who is also a social conservative, just like myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Stu
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 12:14 PM

Like I say Ake, words. Your views are incompatible with socialism even in the broadest sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Power corrupts, absolutely !
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Dec 16 - 01:09 PM

Actually, Ache's views - especially in relation to U.S. politics- are incompatible with reality even in the broadest sense.