'Singers and Musicians'

Subject: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:29 AM

Am I alone in being irritated when I read the description "Singers and Musicians". I consider myself a musician, although at folk clubs I sing unaccompanied.
If the term used was "Singers and instrumentalists" I could understand the qualification.
The latest example of this was spotted when I was browsing for a Folk Club near Newcastle & I came upon Tynefolk:
Each Thursday, we welcome folk singers and musicians alike, with guest nights every three weeks or so...
It does seem to suggest that folk singers aren't musicians.

I hope it's not just me . . .

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:35 AM

Let's face it. Most of them aren't.

;-)))))))

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:38 AM

😆

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:40 AM

For a more a serious response, I'd suggest that many of us aren't. I'd rather describe myself as player of music as opposed to being a musician(including singers).

The term to me either tends to indicate that some forms of training or musical education has been received or that it is one's profession.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:51 AM

in this context I think that the word ' musician ' applies to people with instruments who don't sing.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:51 AM

It's quite ambiguous.

I would or could have read that as
folk singers = accompanied & unaccompanied, trad or modernish 'folk'

and
musicians = someone wanting to play an instrumental piece, folk/ blues/classical-ish/jazzy even.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Will Fly
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:52 AM

Depends on the context. Some clubs/sessions are predominantly instrumental but don't mind the odd song. And some are predominantly unaccompanied song but don't mind the odd instrument player.

I think the term "Singers and Musicians" makes it quite clear that you're happy with people who sing unaccompanied and those who carry an instrument, particularly in view of the bias or slant of many clubs, even in this day and age.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 06:55 AM

No, it doesn't irritate me as a label.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Johnny J
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 07:15 AM

Will says "Even in this day and age".

Sadly, I think things are far more polarised now than ever. Especially up our way.
In many sessions and clubs, instruments are "accepted" but more for an accompaniment. The "You'll have had your tune" attitude is still very prevalent.

Yes, there were always more singers in the early days but only because tune players were actually fewer. However, in those days everybody was actually welcomed and encouraged.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 07:16 AM

I think you are splitting hairs Nigel although I concede it seems as if the term could be interpreted in more than one way...

Personally with that line for a folk club:

I'd assume singers to mean anyone giving a song regardless of whether they used instruments for accompaniment.

And musicians to mean someone(s) just doing a tune a jig or reel etc.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 07:25 AM

"Singers and players" would be better, unless the text is about a casino.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:15 AM

Johnny J,

On the session subject, of the three current ones that I'd sometimes (I don't get out much at the moment) get to, one is pretty strictly no songs and fairly "serious" Irish traditional. Another is mostly Irish, can take the odd song and is a touch more "relaxed" in terms of what fits. The other is more sing/tune around with things passing round the room.

There can be a lot of debate about divisions and restrictions but my own view is that I appreciate the variety available and think it is good that people and find their own more "specialised" niche if that's what they are after or go for the more general - or as, in my case, manage to feel comfortable in more than one type of setting.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Leadfingers
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 08:36 AM

Having been a professional entertainer for far too long , I tend to describe myself as a vocalist and an instrumrntalist

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: leeneia
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 10:25 AM

Let's see. The organizers give their time and money. They find a location, do the publicity, set up the chairs and put them away. And your reaction is to criticize their word use?

How about a little appreciation? How about being glad for the chance to share music?

I know, I know. No good deed goes unpunished.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 01:14 PM

Most of the sessions I go to are mixed, i.e. songs and tunes, and songs may be accompanied or not (preferably as the singer prefers!) We advertise the sessions as being "songs and tunes": most, but not all, of the instrumentalists who come enjoy the songs, whether they themselves sing or not, otherwise they'd be off to a "tunes only" session.So "Songs and Tunes" or even "Tunes and Songs" would be my preference for promoting these sessions.
I am equally happy singing a song I know unaccompanied, if it is a strictly "unaccompanied singing" session, though I have come across people who can NOT sing without their accompanying instrument to hold them on key or get the support of the riffs between lines of the song to hold it together. (Ever noticed how some unaccompanied singers shorten the long notes at the end of lines?) And I would challenge any notion that singers are not musicians when you hear some of the amazing harmonies that erupt spontaneously in such sessions.
I don't object violently to the "Singers and Musicians" label, tho' I'd say we are ALL musicians of sorts (even if not professionally trained, JJ).

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 02:45 PM

leeneia, I play in several sessions at different pubs, there is no organising involved, we just go in get a drink, sit down and play.

This is the usual format for sessions all over the UK

Dave H

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: GUEST,Peter
Date: 06 Mar 17 - 03:35 PM

Dave - the OP refers to "clubs" not "sessions"

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 03:33 AM

' singers and musicians ' usually applies to sessions, folk clubs usually book a guest or call it a ' singers night ' incidently I've been going to both for 49 years.

Dave H

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Mar 17 - 02:36 PM

As long as I dont get described as Bernard Miles, Michael Miles,or Sarah Miles, I am not bothered and if i was i would try and make a joke out of it

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: GUEST,FloraG
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 04:04 AM

I regard a musician as someone who can join in with others and add to the collective sound. That rules out a number of singers.
F.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: GUEST,Some bloke near Doncaster
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 04:41 AM

Hope you are ok Nigel.

Last night at a folk club everybody was singing unaccompanied except me the guest, (who took his six stringed crutch as usual.)

Without any hint of irony, the organiser introduced me saying "it's nice to have musicians come along too."

I suppose I don't help matters because if I am complimented on my playing (it happens, ok? Well, usually towards last orders but I digress) I say I don't play a guitar but I use it to accompany a song in folk circles. If I'm playing blues or jazz, then I play a guitar as the guitar is the star. In folk, the song is hence singers are very much musicians bybthe silly definition this thread concerns.

I see another distinction used when musicians are classed as sitting in a circle all playing together whilst singers sit in a circle listening to each other. Again, a better choice of words would help but at least you don't end up in a diddly doo session unless you want to.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 06:35 AM

I regard a musician as someone who can join in with others and add to the collective sound. That rules out a number of singers.
It probably also rules out a number of instrumentalists as well. But by that definition, many singers would be thought of as adding to the general sound (positively)so they are musicians.
It's the fact that using the expression "singers and musicians" seems to suggest that someone can't be both.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: GUEST,Desi C
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 06:41 AM

Good point, for many years I was an Acpella singer and only in my 50's learnt an instrument, but vocalists are certainly musicians too

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Will Fly
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:31 AM

It's a moot point, isn't it?

If you put an ad in a local paper saying, "Musicians wanted...". what response might you get? My guess is that you wouldn't get singers.

I still think the context is important.

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: The Sandman
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 10:46 AM

here are singers and musicians https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm_oaqW_qRM

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 06:08 PM

We were asked to provide some music for charity fundraising before Christmas: the generic emails repeatedly referred to "your choir": we told them more than once that we would mainly be playing tunes, but if anyone wanted to sing along they were welcome to. Thanks to my school and Sunday school education many many moons ago, I can play "Good King Wenceslas" and sing all 5 verses from memory at the same time!

Subject: RE: 'Singers and Musicians'
From: michaelr
Date: 08 Mar 17 - 06:30 PM

Old joke: What do you call a guy who likes to hang out with musicians?







A: A drummer.