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BS: UK General Election

The Sandman 11 May 17 - 04:54 PM
DMcG 11 May 17 - 05:19 PM
Steve Shaw 11 May 17 - 06:40 PM
Teribus 12 May 17 - 03:23 AM
Big Al Whittle 12 May 17 - 04:31 AM
Steve Shaw 12 May 17 - 05:26 AM
DMcG 12 May 17 - 12:21 PM
Big Al Whittle 12 May 17 - 01:46 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 May 17 - 04:54 PM

The usual pack of nonsense from teribus, no one considered the uk to be on its last legs they were just pissed off with a dustmans strike.
Thatcher did not turn anything around and further more she was corrupt.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG
Date: 11 May 17 - 05:19 PM

"Costs Labour cannot quantify"

We may have an opinion but all we know so far is that the way the policies are to be paid for has not been leaked; the text of the manifesto has been leaked but if i was producing it the text would ne in Word or equivalent and the costs in Excel or similar. There is no inherent reason that people who had access to the one would also have a copy of the other.

So when it comes to costs all we can say at the moment is "not proven". We have been promised costs in the full manifesto in a few days. It is silly to argue about costs until then.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 11 May 17 - 06:40 PM

Well,Teribus, in 2010, after 13 years of Labour, we had a health service in pretty good nick. Everyone was being seen by a consultant within 18 weeks. All gone. Cancer patients were all being treated well within the 62-day time scale. All gone. The A&E waiting time was always met. All gone. Apropos of costings, we were told by Osborne, friend of the City, the non-doms and the tax-avoiders, that the deficit would be banished by 2015. We were "all in it together." Not a bloody chance. A pipe-dream and a massive lie. There is no end to this deficit. Don't give me all that shit about Labour's costings. The Tories' "costings" have been diabolical, and the people who suffer most are those public sector workers who have been getting next to no pay rises for a decade, the nurses who have to use food banks and the disabled who have had their benefits devastated.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Teribus
Date: 12 May 17 - 03:23 AM

Shaw - you obviously read a different 2010 report on the status of the NHS than I did.

DMcG - Corporation Tax seems to be Labour's answer to every question related to costs. That and tax those earning £80,000 more (Valid point made on last night's "Question Time" by a member of the audience in Edinburgh - That will not cover it by a long shot, to raise what is required she pointed out that the line for more stringent taxes has to be set much lower at around the £30,000 per year mark - The lady was right, ask Francois Hollande how effective his swingeing tax hikes were in remedying France's problems)

Sandman - So 1979 "just pissed off with a dustmans strike"

Back in 1979 people had to wait six months to get a telephone, were banned from taking more than £50 abroad and were at the mercy of union leaders for jobs. Hospital porters decided if you could be admitted to hospital for operations and Liverpool Corporation were considering burial at sea to solve the problem of the dead piling up in mortuaries awaiting burial.

The economy was crippled by rampant inflation, punitive taxes and a 98pc levy on investment income that crushed entrepreneurial initiative. In 1977, Britain had to accept a handout from the International Monetary Fund (IMF), like Greece or Cyprus today.

The Government owned the telephones and railways, but also British Airways, Thomas Cook and Pickfords. Each was paralysed by inefficiency and bureaucracy, "customer service" was a little-known skill. A once proud industrial base was crumbling with low productivity, over-manning and a reputation for poor quality goods.

A total of 29m working days were lost to strikes in 1979, compared with 2m in 1990. Power cuts were standard and industries were limited to a three-day working week to conserve energy. The candle was almost a unit of currency.

Throughout the 1970s successive governments wrung their hands and pursued policies of conciliation with the unions, which basically meant capitulation. The demands from increasingly militant leaders grew; more money, more pay or paralysis.

The decline had started long before. Harold Wilson, the Labour prime minister, closed 253 coal mines. Lady Thatcher closed 115. Despite the claim Lady Thatcher abandoned "rust-bucket industries", Britain's manufacturing production rose 7.5pc during her premiership.

At the start, Thatcher's economic policies pushed Britain into a painful period of adjustment. In Thatcher's first two years GDP shrank 3.5pc and unemployment rose by a million. Her government attacked hyperinflation with blisteringly high interest rates, raised from 12pc to 14pc in 1979 and then to 17pc in 1980. Manufacturing was hard hit and the recession at the beginning of the 1980s was the worst since the Great Depression.

Yet her firm stance, radical action and strong leadership led to marked improvements. Howe's first Budget in 1979, the top rate of income tax was cut from 83pc to 60pc (it was later cut to 40pc in 1988) and the basic rate was cut from 33pc to 30pc. The basic rate was also cut for three successive budgets, to 29 percent in the 1986 budget, 27 percent in 1987 and to 25 percent in 1988. Subsequent governments reduced the basic rate further, to the present level of 20 percent in 2007. Tell me Sandman would you cheer a basic rate hike on income tax of 15% to get back to your beloved 1979 level, if so you might well be on your own.

The moves sent an unmistakable pro-business, pro-aspiration message. Thatcher's mantra was that businesses created wealth, not governments and the privatisation of state-owned industries was one of her most lasting legacies.

State ownership of businesses, in Britain and abroad, had been the dominant practice since 1945. A sell-off was originally planned as a cash raid for the Treasury, but by the time Lady Thatcher left office, it had snowballed into a philosophy that swept across the world.

Between 1984 and 1991, 33 major companies were privatised in what the old guard, such as Harold MacMillan, called "selling off the family silver". Associated British Ports, British Airports Authority, British Airways, British Gas, British Steel, British Telecom, 17 electricity companies and 10 water and sewerage companies left public ownership.

According to the Centre for Policy Studies (CPS), the state companies went from costing the Treasury an average of £300m each a year in subsidies to contributing between £3.3bn and £5.8bn a year in corporation tax from 1987 onwards.

British Steel needed £1bn of Treasury support in 1980 on a turnover of £3bn, earning itself a place in the Guinness Book of Records for inefficiency. Soon after privatisation it was profitable and contributing £200m a year in taxes.

British Telecom had a £300m cash injection in 1980; in 1995 it paid £1.1bn to the Exchequer.

The consumer also benefited. By 1995, domestic gas prices fell 25pc and commercial gas costs were 50pc lower. Telecoms charges fell by 40pc and airport charges dropped 10pc.

Anyone wishing to return to the chaos of the 1970s can only be described as a complete and utter f**king idiot.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 17 - 04:31 AM

well.....

theres a grain of truth there. many of those shortcomings we had as a country got a lot of publicity.

however i was a teacher at the time, and none of the kids left school and were unemployed who didn't want to be.
there were no beggars on the street.
there were virtually no hard drugs on the street, and i was working in the inner ring of brum.

okay ...you didn't have to wait for a phone, but we lost stuff as well, because the tories didn't believe there was such a thing as society.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 May 17 - 05:26 AM

Well maybe the report I read was the real one. Those things were in place in 21010, just as I said. Those are the things that matter to people who become in need of health care. Sure, the NHS was, and still is, a top-heavy and clumsy bureaucracy. But it was broadly delivering what people wanted and needed, and now it isn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: DMcG
Date: 12 May 17 - 12:21 PM

DMcG - Corporation Tax seems to be Labour's answer to every question related to costs. That and tax those earning £80,000 more (Valid point made on last night's "Question Time" by a member of the audience in Edinburgh - That will not cover it by a long shot, to raise what is required she pointed out that the line for more stringent taxes has to be set much lower at around the £30,000 per year mark - The lady was right, ask Francois Hollande how effective his swingeing tax hikes were in remedying France's problems) I watched Question Time as well. My point applies there as well as here. It is only a few days until we have the statements how things will be paid for. Once we have that written down and cross referenced we will be able to check for ourselves what is paying for what. Until then it is idle speculation. (And yes, I know the Labour rep had been at the meeting authorising the manifesto.) But actually, I dont set that much store by the details in any parties manifesto. Partly because we know "Events, dear boy" can change all the promises. So the tone and vision is at least as important as the detail. It is also because politicians insist people voted for the entire manifesto commitments whereas in practise any individual vote only partially supports the manifesto. The dilemma was well illustrated on question time by the woman who agreed with almost all Labour's manifesto but wanted independence for Scotland. She feared a vote for Labour would be treated as a vote against independence. SNP would answer her independence wishes, but not the rest. It is the same for all of us, more or less. A 100% support of your preferred party's stance is rare.

It is also important to see virtually every commentator has agreed that for the first time for many years voters are being offered very distinct views. That is how a democracy should be, whichever side you are inclined towards.


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Subject: RE: BS: UK General Election
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 12 May 17 - 01:46 PM

oh by the way did you hear my Jeremy Corbyn song?


https://soundcloud.com/denise_whittle/jeremy-corbyn-song


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Mudcat time: 25 May 7:47 PM EDT

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