BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot

Subject: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: leeneia
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 02:24 PM

After brunch today the DH and I were discussing physics, and that led to Hercule Poirot and his faith in the "little grey cells."

The DH stated that his name is pronounced Pwa-ROH, but I remember a story where a working man (or a dancer) consults Poirot, and Agatha Christie wrote that he carefully pronounced the name correctly as PWA-rit. I think the story revolved around a missing ballerina, who was alleged to be of the Russian nobility, but actually her father drove a lorry in Moscow.

Does anybody remember that story?
=====
About the physics. Entropy is kaput. I never did believe in it.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: keberoxu
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 02:27 PM

What I recall is
"Murder on the Orient Express,"
given the Hollywood treatment,
with Albert Finney as the fellow.

The murder victim has a conversation with Poirot.
The former is a crass wealthy American
with no idea how to pronounce French.
It's played for laughs.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: MikeL2
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 02:33 PM

Hi

Although Poirot is in fact Belgian his name is usually pronounced as if it were French.

This would be more like Pwarwo with the last "W" soft.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 02:42 PM

leeneia, the story you refer to is from 'The Labours of Hercules', the story called 'The Arcadian Deer'. I've got the book in front of me now, and here is the line you remember reading:-

"Er - excuse me sir - but it's true isn't it, that you're the detective gentleman - you're Mr Hercules Pwarrit?" He said the name carefully.
Poirot said, "That is so."

I can't fathom this out, because Poirot would be pronounced Pwa-ro, and certainly not Pwarrit. I'm surprised Poirot didn't correct the lad, as usually he was very touchy about this!

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 02:45 PM

By the way, the lad did actually say "Hercules" with an 's' at the end. I think it was Christie emphasising that Poirot represented Hercules in her story. But the French name is 'Hercule' without an 's'.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Monique
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 02:46 PM

I agree with Leeneia's DH and partly with Mike, it should be pronounced pwa-ROH and Hercule should be "air-KUL" with a Fr. "u" (= "ee" pronounced with very rounded lips, almost as if whistling)

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Monique
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 02:48 PM

Cross-post!

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 03:50 PM

It's Hercules Parrot, live with it.

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 04:38 PM

If you want to hear audio of it being pronounced (though not by a parrot), look it up on forvo.com

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Mrrzy
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 05:35 PM

Accent on the second syllAbble pf Poirot and of Hercule

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 06:45 PM

It's British pronunciation of French (Poirot lives in England) - same way they pronounce "claret" CLArit as opposed to claREH.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 06:57 PM

As a child in the fifties, I was taken on seaside holidays (UK) and there was often a 'pierrot concert party' on the promenade. It was always pronounced 'pee-yair-oh'. No-one ever said 'peer-rot'.

Agatha Christie's novels were read extensively (her first ones were published in the twenties) and everybody pronounced the detective's name in the French way ('pwa-roh)

However, claret and valet have the 't' sounded.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 11:17 PM

Claret yes, but valet? Surely most UK English speakers would pronounce the person as valley, with the syllables equally stressed, but the verb as valet, with the stress on the val?

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Apr 17 - 11:18 PM

And on this side of the Atlantic a fillet steak is pronounced as written in English, whereas the Americans say (or used to) fillay.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Jos
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 02:46 AM

From Leeneia, from memory but without checking the book itself:
'he carefully pronounced the name correctly as PWA-rit'

From Senoufou, who did quote the book itself:
'"... you're Mr Hercules Pwarrit?" He said the name carefully'

Agatha Christie said that he pronounced the name carefully - but not that he pronounced it correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Monique
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 03:12 AM

From there:
SNIP
In The Disappearance of Mr. Davenheim, a deliveryman says that the parrot is "for Mr. Poy-rott". Poirot tries correcting him with his own pronunciation of his name, but the deliveryman now calls the parrot "Poirot" while STILL calling Poirot "Poy-rott".
Same thing happens in The Affair at the Victory Ball when a receptionist calls Poirot "Hercules Poy-rott".
SNIP

I have no time right now to watch any on YouTube.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 04:40 AM

Exactly Monique. Poirot usually sets people right immediately if they mispronounce his name. (I have all the Poirot books and most of Christie's other ones too!) He positively bristles indignantly about this normally!

The correct pronunciation of 'valet' is indeed 'vallett' with the 't' sounded. It's often mispronounced though. It's originally a Middle English word, though of French origin, and has been pronounced 'vallett' since then.

There are several examples of sounding the 't' at the end of an apparently French word. As Thompson says, 'fillet', and 'divot' (a clod of earth) 'billet' (a lodging) 'claret' 'turbot' and so on.

But in 'ballet' one doesn't. Or 'duvet' or 'gilet'.

There's no one rule fits all!

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 08:23 AM

Don't think you sound the H in 'Ercule Pwaroh?

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 08:24 AM

Oh an' dinnae forgit tae roll yer ares!

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 08:29 AM

1) he is a fictional character and can't be offended by however you say his name
2)he has been mispronouncing the English world 'little' for close on a hundred years, 'leetle grey cells' - my arse!

3) if he can't get his pronunciation right - why should we give a bugger?

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 08:54 AM

Hahaha Big Al! He also drinks ghastly tisanes instead of good old tea, and is weirdly particular about his clothes, wearing patent leather shoes and spats even in the snow. I reckon he has OCD, because he's forever adjusting ornaments and furniture around his flat so that they're exactly symmetrical and in the right place. He's inordinately proud of his enormous, waxed moustache, and horribly patronising to his friend, Captain 'astings.

I much prefer Miss Marple. :)

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Monique
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 09:37 AM

Here you have it at the very beginning first pronounced by "himself" then pronounced by David Suchet as David Suchet.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 10:20 AM

Well done Monique!

I really adore David Suchet, especially in that role. There was a documentary about the actor, in which he travelled on the Simplon-Orient Express, where the train staff were wonderfully welcoming and he got a little bit tearful. They showed clips of the film 'Murder On The Orient Express' and found the exact carriages and corners on the train where the action took place.

I personally think 'The Labours Of Hercules' to be Christie's worst Poirot novel of all. It's too contrived, trying unconvincingly to fit the Greek legend into the book.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 11:23 AM

I am more impressed with the careful use of costume, vehicles and architecture in the TV series.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: leeneia
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 12:41 AM

"you're Mr Hercules Pwarrit?" He said the name carefully.
Poirot said, "That is so."

Who am I to argue with Mr. P himself? Remember, he isn't French, he's Belgian, and Belgium is a place where french and germanic languages rub elbows. I'm not convinced by actors' pronunciation, since they don't know any more than I do.

I believe Agatha Christie once said she wished she hadn't invented a Belgian detective, as she knew nothing of Belgians.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 09:53 AM

Going back to the link provided by Monique - 
Date: 28 Apr 17 - 09:37
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FX3ITew9Mpw 
it is spoken by the Belgian writer Stan Lauryssens - @ 31:47
and @ 33:20

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Wikipedia has
Hercule Poirot (/ɜːrˈkjuːl pwɑːrˈoʊ/;
French pronunciation: ​[ɛʁkyl pwaʁo])
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hercule_Poirot

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: JHW
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 11:59 AM

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's duvet

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: mayomick
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 01:57 PM

Maybe Poirot acknowledged that the peasant was adhering to an older pronunciation of the name . The "t" at least would have been pronounced at one time, surely?

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Senoufou
Date: 29 Apr 17 - 02:33 PM

I've just re-read the whole story (It isn't very long, as it's part of a collection of very brief situations mirroring the Twelve Labours of Hercules) The lad in question represented Adonis (!) although he was actually a car mechanic, who had much pleased the great detective by diagnosing a problem with his car.

The fact is that education in the twenties for the 'lower classes' was based on the three 'r's, and certainly did not include a foreign language, either French or anything else. People had no idea how to pronounce foreign names, and indeed were suspicious of 'foreigners' in general. The young man said he'd read about Poirot, and the clever things he had done (his words). So he was improvising how to say the name from the written word.

Poirot was in fact very kind to the lad, who had fallen in love with a mysterious young lady. I won't spoil the ending, but he travelled across Europe on behalf of the boy, and indicated that he wouldn't charge him for his services. The book says he fully appreciated the lad's beauty (!) from an aesthetic point of view. So it seems he felt compassionate towards him and wouldn't have corrected his abysmal pronunciation of his name.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Thompson
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 04:38 AM

The whole point about the continuing trope of Hercule Poirot's name is that Poirot is a ridiculously spiky little caricature - the huge moustache, the tisanes, the name - and the mispronunciation of the name and Poirot's reaction to it (whether tactful or not) is part of the joke. Christie wrote him as a ridiculous character, who was also a brilliant detective with an incisive mind.

One of the T-ending words that catches people is bergamot ('mott', a bunch of haute-bourgeois ladies chorused when I mispronounced it at a gardening course); another is the opera Turandot (also 'dott').

The best statement on it is the probably apocryphal quote by Margot Asquith; she met the film star Jean Harlow at a party, and Harlow was using the informal American custom of calling her by her first name, but pronouncing it 'Margott'. Asquith supposedly sniffed "The T is silent, as in Harlow". What a cow! Except she probably didn't say it.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: leeneia
Date: 30 Apr 17 - 07:41 PM

Yes, Senoufou, you are probably right.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Jos
Date: 01 May 17 - 02:34 AM

With so many people being diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome lately, perhaps Poirot would also be a candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Mr Red
Date: 05 May 17 - 03:23 AM

Asquith - Harlot legend or is it myth?

Might have been Margot Grahame, but the joke remains the same.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 May 17 - 05:46 AM

"But in 'ballet' one doesn't. Or 'duvet' or 'gilet'.

There's no one rule fits all!"

I think English is pretty near impossible S. English is the only language I speak but I make mistakes. I can't think of an example off hand but it could be a word I've learned from ("simple" - Rufus and Everyman is about as far as I go) crosswords. You say the word and get corrected...

I can't remember much of my O level French but of the other language where I know a few words, I can get things wrong but I'd say Welsh can be easier than English - a few rules and you certainly would not be making a stab at a village I lived in being "Pie Dew" or the house I live in being "Co-ed Fa". They complicate things with mutations (which I gather are natural to a first language speaker but I've never got my head round) though.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Welsh/Mutations

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 05 May 17 - 06:29 AM

Does any one know of a simple route to Irish pronunciation?

I have played "Grain's" jig (actually I believe Grainne is a female name pronounced more "gron ya") and the "Cliffs of Mohair" (Moher) and have embarrassed myself a few times...

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 05 May 17 - 10:10 PM

Jon Freeman, as a speaker of Hiberno-English, I recommend the following site to hear names pronounced by the late Frank McCourt, a native speaker of Irish (Gaelige; NOT "Gaelic" which is Scottish).


Baby Names or Ireland w/audio pronounciation


If that site can't help, sometimes simply googling "how to pronounce _____ in Irish" and hitting enter will lead you to an audio file, often on youtube by native speakers.

Subject: RE: BS: how to pronounce Hercule Poirot
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 06 May 17 - 05:05 AM

Thanks DW. I've bookmarked that one. I like the way he gives a bit of background to the names as well as the pronunciation.