Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady

Subject: BS: Ian Brady
From: selby
Date: 15 May 17 - 06:04 PM

At long last the child killer Ian Brady has died the media are publishing obituary sent to him. The "gentleman refused to give details where his last victim lies and played the system for years. IMHO the bastard should have been executed years ago let's hope he'll exists and he suffers whilst he rots there

Subject: RE: BS: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 May 17 - 06:21 PM

There's a Wikipedia article on the Moors Murders, which took place 1963-1965. I never know how to respond to such things, but somehow I don't think execution is a just or effective response.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Obit: Ian Brady. Aged 79
From: GUEST,keberoxu
Date: 15 May 17 - 06:24 PM

suffer little children?

Subject: RE: Obit: Ian Brady. Aged 79
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 17 - 06:26 PM

Good riddance.

Subject: RE: BS: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 May 17 - 06:27 PM

I agree with Joe. Though my reaction is good riddance.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 May 17 - 07:04 PM

'Despite his mistakes in life...'

He tortured a ten year-old little girl and recorded her terrified, anguished pleadings for her mother for his later sexual pleasure. Then he slit her throat. The recordings were played to a shocked jury at his trial.

I wouldn't use the word 'mistakes' to describe his actions...

The families of his victims are still serving their life-sentences of grief and horror.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: alex s
Date: 15 May 17 - 07:11 PM

David O'Donnell, I think you made a typo.
RIH
Rot In Hell

"Mistakes in life"!!! Are you crazy??
Just read the foul deeds this monster did. If you can without vomiting.
Keith's mum died without knowing where he was buried because that sick bastard wouldn't tell.
Stick your sanctimonious crap where the sun don't shine.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 May 17 - 10:15 PM

I can't say that I'm sorry he's gone.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 15 May 17 - 10:25 PM

No more cost to the tax payer then :>)

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 17 - 03:01 AM

In cases of child torture and murder, the perpetrators have crossed the line in acceptable human behaviour.
The death sentence should be retained for such crimes whether the perpetrators are of sound mind or not.

Redemption would be impossible in the circumstances.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 17 - 04:28 AM

Good job you're not in charge, then.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 17 - 05:26 AM

What did keeping Brady alive accomplish?

I suppose the greed of the media and the prurience of the public may have suffered!

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Iains
Date: 16 May 17 - 05:42 AM

As some of the offenses occurred when Britain still had capital punishment he should have been hanged.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 17 - 05:54 AM

The death penalty is a complex issue and I accept there are good arguments on both sides. I also accept that with or without the death penalty innocents can be killed. Nevertheless, even in cases like this I find myself opposed to it.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 17 - 06:28 AM

we are a better society for having gun control and not having the death sentence.

deriving sensual satisfaction from violence and murder is best left to criminals like Brady.
you can dress it up with quests for individual freedom, closure for victims, and justice.

but that's what it is - sensual pleasure derived from the desecration of human flesh. Warden Howe of Sing Sing put his finger on it in his famous book about his years as a prison governor.

its a human weakness - we are all prey to. we all find ourselves reading about executions and murders for enjoyment. sensual excitement...Warden Howe says he was besieged by people who had all sorts of wonderful reasons to enjoy the thrill of the execution chamber. And he imagined a live broadcast from there would have been compulsive listening for the entire nation.

know your weakness, and shun it.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 17 - 07:20 AM

"The death penalty is a complex issue and I accept there are good arguments on both sides."

I don't.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 May 17 - 07:43 AM

Theresa May must be pissed off. It would take the Queen dying to improve her electoral odds. No distraction value in Brady.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Stu
Date: 16 May 17 - 07:51 AM

He suffered far more by being kept alive than he would have by being killed by the state. He didn't deserve mercy, but killing him lowers the state to his level, and our society should be better than that. The death penalty is revenge, not punishment.

The world's a better place without him for sure. Good riddance.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 17 - 07:55 AM

the polls all say she is going to win anyway...still what do they know.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 May 17 - 08:03 AM

I'm not in favour of the death penalty. It is, as you say Stu, revenge.
The main thing is to keep such evil and dangerous people safely incarcerated in a very secure place so they can't commit any more offences.

Apparently, after serving many years in solitary confinement in various UK prisons, Brady managed to convince psychiatrists that he actually was insane, and after being diagnosed as a psychopath, was moved to Ashworth (high-security hospital for the criminally insane). After he decided he didn't like it there much, he admitted he had merely pretended to be insane, and begged to be sent to a Scottish prison so he could go on hunger strike and end his life. But the authorities refused to reconsider his diagnosis.

The death penalty in UK was abolished just months before his sentencing.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 17 - 08:25 AM

It's not a matter of revenge at all people who commit such crimes have no place in human society.
Keeping Brady alive served no useful purpose and the money could have been better spent.
How many millions did it cost to keep Mr Brady?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 17 - 08:32 AM

Not as many millions as it does to keep hundreds of thousands of people with advanced dementia alive. You really are clueless, aren't you?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 17 - 09:11 AM

If the idea was to punish Brady for his appalling crimes then prison was a far greater punishment.

If we as a nation condemn murder we cannot then execute people in the name of the state, if we do we condone murder.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 May 17 - 10:08 AM

You condone homicide, the killing of someone. Murder is a legal construct.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Allan Conn
Date: 16 May 17 - 10:21 AM

I agree that if you against the death penalty in principle, like I am, then you are against it full stop. You can't put a monetary cost on things and someone would have been in that cell being looked after by those prison officers if he wasn't. As I understand he longed to die and in his later years seemingly begged to be allowed to be transferred from hospital to prison so he could die. So real life imprisonment wasn't a soft option for him anyway!

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 May 17 - 10:39 AM

I can't bring myself to even begin to argue on that territory. Capital punishment simply can simply never be justified.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 May 17 - 10:53 AM

Raparee, you can paint it any colour you like, it is still murder, the taking of a life.

In the case of the state a premeditated murder.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: theleveller
Date: 16 May 17 - 11:14 AM

"What did keeping Brady alive accomplish?"

A number of things, actually. While he was alive there was always a chance that he might disclose where Keith was buried. He spent his life in circumstances that can hardly have been easy, so his punishment was ongoing. It did not reduce our legal system and, by default, our society, to the role of judicial murderers.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: leeneia
Date: 16 May 17 - 11:51 AM

I've noticed that people who advocate the death sentence never seem to think about the effect it has on those who have to carry it out.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: DMcG
Date: 16 May 17 - 12:56 PM

I do mot support the death penalty, leeneia, but this book will give some insight, I expect.

I am quite comfortable for Steve and others to think there are no good arguments in favour: it may just be a difference in terminology. I think that the arguments in favour of the death penalty need to be thought about seriously because it is a serious subject. Having thought about them I find them lacking and in the end they do not persuade me. Similarly the arguments opposed to the death penalty deserve to be treates seriously by those in favour of it, again because it is a serious subject that deserves being treated seriously.

There is a lot of heat on other threads about evidence. For this question you need to be thinking what you want to achieve and then see what the evidence is. I did a short adult education course on the topic a decade or so ago and as far as I understand it the evidence is compatible with my opposition to the death penalty.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 May 17 - 01:29 PM

I was struggling with the concept of what we should have done with him and maybe The death penalty is revenge, not punishment. rings a few bells
But he worked the system and must have got pleasure from that. And he was kept away from the other inmates. Witness what happened to Sutcliff when he encountered other prisoners.

Not sure Brady was much punished, he could have been but any hint of ad hoc retribution would have been big news. The death penalty is revenge, that's for sure. It also is a Darwinian tactic. And I am sure very expensive with 10 years of appeals and incarceration. Opponents love to quote statistics (which make it true?) that it is not a deterrent. It is, but at what percentage? Life ain't binary!

Myra Hindley yearned for freedom and tried to get a bit. She was punished, but also worked a few systems of her own, like being a gay lover in prison! Not binary either!

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 16 May 17 - 03:45 PM

When some psycho has such an extreme mind set who knows what they see as a punishment. Society's judgement is not going to matter to them. It is reported that he had expressed a wish to die for many years but was basically kept from harm.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 17 - 04:02 PM

For most people who commit such crimes, I am sure death must be a welcome release....just imagine living such a horror.

Keeping them alive is the real "revenge"...... cruel torment.

As I have said already certain types of crime are beyond the pale, society should make sure that these people are removed permanently.

What has the cost of dementia treatment to do with this issue Steve? "You really are clueless, aren't you?" ....there is no analogy.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 May 17 - 04:29 PM

Well I don't myself believe that Brady was living a horror inside prison. Firstly, he appeared to have no remorse, but on the contrary enjoyed controlling the Police and the Press by half-hinting he would tell where he'd buried Keith, then deciding not to say after all. He wrote to many journalists and had visits from various people.

Secondly, 'lifers' in prison are allowed to have a huge number of items in their cells, including books, music systems, TV, hobby and craft materials, musical instruments, a computer and so on. I know this as I've visited an inmate in HMP Parkhurst, (a Category A prison) and the Officers told me it made searching cells very difficult having so much 'stuff' to wade through.

There are also various classes and education opportunities, art and creative writing, a gym and sometimes even a swimming pool. Clean bedding is provided weekly, and all laundry is catered for. Food is adequate (tasted daily by the Governor) and there is always a Chaplain, Imam and Rabbi for spiritual counsel and worship.

I wouldn't call any of this horrific.
The only punishment it offers is one's lack of liberty.

I wouldn't want them hung up by their toes and flogged daily, but prison life in UK isn't all that terrible.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 17 - 04:47 PM

what pisses me off is that they're devoting hours of tv time to him theres an hour long programme on channel 5 tonight.

Derek Brimstone died the other week. A seminal character on the English folk scene. All the 70's folk comedians - Jasper Carrot, Billy Connolly, Mike Harding, Fred WEdlock - all claimed Derek as an influence> He made thousands and thousands of people laugh. Influenced hundreds of guitar and banjo players. was unstinting in his encouragement and help for young musicians. taught us hundreds of folksongs - everything from American folk blues to the Copper family. on top of that he was a beloved friend, a gentle husband and much loved father.

what fuckwit is it decides that Brady gets an hours TV devoted to his life and achievements?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 May 17 - 04:52 PM

I expect it's because people are rather thrilled by the macabre details of his appalling murders. They can't get enough of it, and it is a bit sick.
It'll be a nine days' wonder, then we can all forget about him.
(Except the poor relatives and families of his young victims of course. They have to carry on living daily with the horror of it all.)

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: robomatic
Date: 16 May 17 - 07:37 PM

I don't see what is so wrong with taking revenge (through the justice system). The justice system was established so that the state could take over from personal acts of revenge and so eliminate private wars such as the feud between the Hatfields and Mccoys.
I remember studying the Oresteia in college and admiring the idea that the law was ordained by Athena in order to solve intractable human problems like the cycle of retribution.
I understand the reluctance of many who mistrust that anyone, even society as a whole, should have the power to ordain 'death' as a punishment.
On the other hand, any organized set of laws or principles is bound to generate its counter-ethos. There are so-called human beings whose actions seem to pre-destine them to a dark end. Someone's gonna die, and if they are not stopped, they will take someone else's life. And if imprisoned, they will take someone's life in prison. A society reluctant to face this is likely to guarantee that the problem persists. This seems to be the current trend in Europe and the U.K. and most of the U.S. I only hope that when the pendulum swings back, it be moderate and not excessive. My understanding of the Biblical "eye-for-an-eye" and "life-for-a-life" was not that it maintain a culture of violence, but that it establish a limit to that violence."

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 May 17 - 10:08 PM

the problem is, it doesn't limit violence. it lends it a proscenium arch.

there was nothing the IRA would have loved more than to see the brit government execute one of its members during the 1970's. nothing THatcher would have liked better    heroes and villain of thousand crappy rebel ballads. money rolling in from every bar from brum to boston, mass. heroic status assured on all sides.

as Churchill said, grass grows over a battlefield, but not a scaffold.

on your own shore - who was Timothy McVeigh, Sacco and Vanzetti? who were all the others? Star status assured!!

as for pendulums - it would be hard to imagine how much further it could swing to the right from the position of HUntsville's factory line of death.

Capital punishment teaches nothing except that if humans don't fit into our society -its alright to kill them, the story is the same from Jesus to Ted Bundy.

sociologists have pointed out for years that most of our criminals come from poverty. in the USA - you have nearly a third of your people living in poverty, and they have access to every kind of instrument of murder available.

i understand -its easier to blame the poor than to sort out your problems - but stop dressing it up in sophistry and fine words.

Ian Brady's lifetime in prison and mental hospital was a humane, restrained and decent response that England should be proud of, to an enigma of human behaviour - given our present level of understanding of the human condition.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 17 - 02:26 AM

"
Ian Brady's lifetime in prison and mental hospital was a humane, restrained and decent response that England should be proud of, to an enigma of human behaviour - given our present level of understanding of the human condition."    Very well put Al, but the rest of your post is apples and oranges I'm afraid.

Monsters like Brady must not be confused with political ideologists, his treatment has nothing to do with issues like the overthrow of the political system.
People who commit crimes such as those of Brady are the embodiment of evil, and should have no place in society.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 May 17 - 03:10 AM

decides that Brady gets an hours TV devoted to his life and achievements?

Well it does serve as a warning for the public to be alert. These days, with mobile phones/cameras it is so much easier.
And there was a lorry driver who witnessed what (from his description) was the pair probably carrying things to bury on the moor. Apparently he was not believed because the police said Brady didn't drive! On the basis he didn't have a licence for cars. They had a car.

Let us hope policing has improved.

What didn't come out in the documentary was unsolved disappearances and the timings with Brady/Hindley's known crimes. They hinted at gaps and how such criminals usually operate - ie get bolder and more frequent.
Not names but at least timings would have been instructive - instead of the repetitions.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 May 17 - 03:41 AM

You're right about the poor policing Mr Red. My husband had the documentary on TV last night, and I caught the bit where one of the searchers on the moors found one of the bodies in a shallow grave. He'd noticed a stick poking out of a slight depression, and went to investigate. His superior officer told him to leave it, as it was probably only a dead sheep. He replied that, if so, the sheep was wearing clothes.
It sounded to me as if, understandably, they were fed up with tramping around in the cold over such a huge terrain. But it was rather cavalier of the officer to have that attitude. They were, after all, searching for people's dead children.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 May 17 - 04:26 AM

A brilliant post, Al. I salute you, sir.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Teribus
Date: 17 May 17 - 04:36 AM

Apparently as reported in the press the cost of keeping Brady amounted to £8 million.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: DMcG
Date: 17 May 17 - 06:32 AM

Such figures are always less clear than they first appear. Does this represent the incremental cost of detaining Brady or the total costs of everything associated with him? For example does it include the total salary of his psychiatric team or only that fraction of time associated with treating him, since they presumably also did other things. How is the cost of the building in which he was housed treated? Are people claiming the wing would not have been built if he did not exist?

I am not saying the £8m is right or wrong, but it is good idea not to just take it at face value.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Stu
Date: 17 May 17 - 06:45 AM

"People who commit crimes such as those of Brady are the embodiment of evil, and should have no place in society."

Agree, but in prison they are out of society (or should be if the prison is run properly, and why I don't agree prisoners should get the vote). Killing people isn't the answer, and there are no winners in capital punishment. It demeans us and causes terrible suffering for a lot of other innocent people who are involved through no fault of their own.

Brady was a piece of shit, he played the likes of Lord Longford like a fiddle and whatever hell he's in now, he fully deserves it. Killing him though? Not an answer in any civilised society.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 17 - 08:25 AM

'Monsters like Brady must not be confused with political ideologists, his treatment has nothing to do with issues like the overthrow of the political system.'

do you really think the parents of children killed in the MacDonalds in WArrington, or those of children killed outside the FBI offices Oklahoma gave a damn how committed the bombers were to their political position?

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Jack Campin
Date: 17 May 17 - 09:52 AM

Executing people has always been a very expensive business. In Scotland, local jurisdictions used to try capital cases, but they kicked the responsibility upstairs to central government as soon as they got the chance - the bills were crippling. (I think the last one paid for by local government was around 1800). And Scotland never executed anywhere near as many people as England, let alone the present-day US.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: akenaton
Date: 17 May 17 - 12:40 PM

There is a subtle difference Al.

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 May 17 - 01:31 PM

too bleeding subtle for me...

Subject: RE: Obit: death of UK child killer Ian Brady
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 May 17 - 01:56 PM

Jack, I believe ALbert Pierrepoint (Chief Executioner for Great Britain) carried out most of the Scottish death sentences in the 20th Century.
Even he eventually decided that the death penalty was not the answer, and resigned his position.
His autobiography is extremely interesting but completely chilling in its descriptions of the actual procedure. It shows exactly why taking a person's life in cold blood on behalf of the State is an appalling act, no matter what their crime.

For what it's worth, my opinion is that Brady was a psychopath, incapable of empathetic feeling. He killed because it was 'interesting' and, like many psychopaths, he enjoyed the control it gave him. As long as he was safely contained for the rest of his life, he no longer represented a danger to the public.

It is expensive to keep people in prison, but cold-bloodedly snuffing out a criminal's life makes one no better than a psychopath in my view.