terrorist stuff going off in London

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 08:55 AM

none of us are involved directly in counter terrorism. i think maybe we need to leave that side of it to the professionals.

i just can't see the point in arguing all the time.

let's just be sad this terrible thing has happened.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 08:46 AM

Uttre ***** denying nonsense Teribus - you have the details of the situation in Britain - all you can respond with are denials of researched facts and nothing else - not even "alternative facts"
Another fact just announced to walk away from
Several Arab countries have just announced that they are severing links with Quatar over its fueling extremism and terrorism
And where does Quatar depend on for its arms - you guessed it -Little Britain
I suppose it's Anglophobic to point that out!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 08:27 AM

"The first wave of a terrorist attack is the use of violence to instil fear into ordinary people as a threat to their leaders.

The second wave involves no personal intervention from the terrorist at all, but occurs when the fearful turn into the hateful and continue to propagate panic. It's not an exaggeration to say that hate-mongering is playing into the hands of terrorists. Terrorists don't risk their own lives 'just' to kill a few innocents; they know that they will become the Patient 0 who will spread terror like a virus.

They're trying to force all-out war. That is their end game, not isolated attacks here and there.

We can't always stop the first wave, but we can help to prevent the second."

Now then Gnome who was it that actually came out with that. Who was it that "puts it far better than" you can?

Who exactly are the "fearful" your source refers to? Do the British people seem fearful and hate filled to you or anyone else? They certainly do not seem fearful to me. In the case of the London incident unarmed civilians turned on the three Jihadists and attacked them start to finish their attack lasted eight minutes and ended with the three attackers lying dead in the street they elected to bring carnage to.

Who is it that is hate-mongering Gnome? The response so far has been remarkably measured and it has stayed within OUR legal system and law enforcement agencies. They will continue to investigate both incidents and prosecute any charges that may be brought. While that is in progress government policy may well be altered by all those terribly well informed and knowledgeable MPs.

"Free Speech" Jom - of the sort that allows you to spout your Anglophobic, racist, biased and bigoted views.

"Free Speech" Jom - of the sort that allows anybody to rightfully and freely express their views and criticise whoever they wish to without fear of reprisal and threat for doing so.

Jom please tell me what has the "HAVES & HAVE NOTS" got to do with equality of opportunity and freedom of choice or equality under the law?

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 08:23 AM

Steve Hilton, Cameron's former strategy chief, is calling for May to resign over her record on terrorism, tweeting: "Theresa May responsible for security failures of London Bridge, Manchester, Westminster Bridge. Should be resigning not seeking re-election".

Time for the buck to stop!

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 08:00 AM

Terrorism has but one major goal - To generate terror. The clue is in the name. First line of the wiki definition -

Terrorism is a term used in its broadest sense to describe the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror or fear, in order to achieve a political, religious or ideological aim

Whether you accept it or not is irrelevant. Do you have anything to back up your statement that their main goal is just to kill people?

DtG

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 07:51 AM

Dave,
There are those on here who seem to have missed that point.

I for one did not miss it.
I just do not accept it.
They may well be happy to see us being divided, but their main goal is just to kill us.

When I say "us" I include ordinary decent Muslims who they are just as happy to kill as they are the rest of us. Globally their victims are mostly Muslims. Ideologically incorrect Muslims.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 06:55 AM

It was pretty obvious that this thread was going to go the same way as the Manchester one but I had hoped it would not. Probably time for this one to be closed too before it degenerates any further :-(

DtG

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 06:42 AM

Then if your so worried about equality jim barrell, go and sort out equal punishment for queer Irish catholic priests who can't keep their hands off young boys!!!

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 06:32 AM

"Free speech"
In the form of a press owned by millionaires who have spent years campaigning for the party of their choice, and a govenment who are elected on promises they never keep.
"Belief in equality for all?"
What!!!!!
Go look ar the steadily increasing gap between HAVES and HAVE NOTS in Britain, the creeping privatisation of health,
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/nhs-health-service-healthcare-privatisation-a7160771.html
the cost of sending your children to be educated to a HIGHER LEVEL and the massive gap between those living in the soft-underbelly southeast and the real Britain
http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/north-south-divide-uk-british-education-economy-gender-pay-gap-difference-a7484046.html
THen there's CHILDCARE
This is how "EQUAL for ALL" Britain is today.
I suppose 'freedom of association' means we can all sit in the park and compare notes!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 06:26 AM

There seems to be a lot of experts out there who think that May and the Tories have opened the door to terrorism by their insane budget cuts.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/theresa-may-police-cuts-slammed-by-jim-gamble-former-northern-ireland-counter-terror-chief

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 06:03 AM

Time to repeat my earlier message

The first wave of a terrorist attack is the use of violence to instil fear into ordinary people as a threat to their leaders.

The second wave involves no personal intervention from the terrorist at all, but occurs when the fearful turn into the hateful and continue to propagate panic. It's not an exaggeration to say that hate-mongering is playing into the hands of terrorists. Terrorists don't risk their own lives 'just' to kill a few innocents; they know that they will become the Patient 0 who will spread terror like a virus.

They're trying to force all-out war. That is their end game, not isolated attacks here and there.

We can't always stop the first wave, but we can help to prevent the second.

There are those on here who seem to have missed that point.

DtG

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 05:12 AM

"Those treasured western values might prove to be not all they're cracked up to be"

Your words Shaw, and they beg the perfectly reasonable question, "What treasured western values might prove to be not all they're cracked up to be?"

Religious tolerance?
Free speech?
Free association?
Rule and supremacy of secular law?
Belief in equality for all?

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 05:05 AM

Again you resort to name calling.
Instead,Why not identify fanaticism in what I have said against the fanatics busy planning the next atrocity.
Why is it wrong to hate them and their ideology of death, as you stated Steve?
What have cluster bombs to do with it, except to excuse what they do Steve?

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:54 AM

And your last post makes YOU sound like a fanatic. Poor Keith.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:52 AM

As I have neither excused in the slightest way what terrorists have done nor blamed the victims, I have to assume that you are either in the wrong thread, on the wrong forum, have become seriously deranged, are lying in your teeth, are on another planet, have joined Teribus in entirely losing the ability to read plain English, or have totally lost it. Naturally, one assumes that it could be several of those deficiencies operating simultaneously.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:47 AM

Steve,
If all we can do is say that we hate these dead bastards we'll get nowhere

Yes, but if we also hate and go after those who celebrate their atrocities and those planning the next one, we might prevent some of the coming atrocities.

People like you who want nothing done against those seeking the death of us and our children are dangerous.
The fanatics themselves despise you for your weakness. It confirms their belief that we do not deserve to live.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:40 AM

"Put up or shut up I'm afraid."

I agree. Unfortunately, May can't seem to do either. Incompetent as a Home Secretary and even more incompetent as a PM.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:33 AM

Steve,
"Is it permissible to express hatred of the killers, their ideology and their fanatical supporters?"
No it isn't.

Yes it is, as our parents did the fanatics who attacked our people and kids in 1940.

Do not try to blame the victims.
Those massacred Coptic Christians did nothing to invite their execution. They were dirt poor and never hurt anyone.
What did the Yazidis do to invite their genocide?
Their only crime, like ours, was not to conform to the fanatics' ideology.

I find that ideology hateful, as do most Muslims.
People like you who excuse what they do are dangerous.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:24 AM

Missing comma. I was trying out dictation.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:23 AM

"So which of "Those treasured western values" do you find wanting then Shaw? Which of "Those treasured western values" should be scrapped in the vague hope of appeasing extremist Islam? Both Al-Qaeda and ISIS have told the world precisely what THEY want, just as they have stated quite clearly that there will be no compromise and no negotiation - you may be prepared to accept Sharia Law and the loss of hard won freedoms - I most certainly am not."

If you read that in my post well, you can't read.


I'm not talking about scrapping anything. Instead of polarising the debate with your aggressive defence of western values, why not instead reflect for a moment on how the deployment of those values has helped the millions of bereaved families in Iraq or the two million people trapped in Gaza, and try to do it in a non-imperialistic, even humble, way. Maybe they'll just have to wait patiently for a little while longer for the benefits to kick in, eh? Or is it just easier to blame someone else?

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 04:21 AM

Put up or shut up I'm afraid.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: theleveller
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 03:56 AM

"My Area?

There's a euphemism I never heard before...."

My Kindle spellcheck doesn't recognise the work arse. Maymoron, it seems, doesn't recognise what a total arse she is making of security in this country. The police are stretched to breaking, working double shifts, working rest days and being put under intolerable strain. How can people who have, literally, to make life and death decisions, do so when they are mentally and physically exhausted?

My eldest son is a police firearms trainer - I know that he, and most of his colleagues, would agree with this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/london-terror-attack-bridge-borough-latest-firearms-officer-government-wrong-police-cuts-the

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 03:55 AM

Ake , for gawdsake, I was not patronising you.
I was trying to make a channel of contact between you and the rest of humanity.
At the moment - you're one stage away from the flat earthers and 'Jesus was a spaceman' fraternity. They, like Keith and yourself, have impressive statistics to back up their claims.

Its just....oh forget it!

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 03:44 AM

"It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere."
THen tackle what I believe rather than how I express that belief
Meaningless slogan otherwise Robo and extremely diversive.
I put my arguments up to be examined and, if wrong, corrected - that's the only reason I contribute to this forum.
I don't hide my views - so why not have a go instead of sniping fom the underbrush
"Where else but on this ridiculous site could anyone gat away with having a go at gay people on a thread about terrorists? "
All the more reason to stay around Dave - cockroach infestations need all the hands they can get
Let's face it, Ake does most of our job for us by making dead children a soap-box for his obnoxious views.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Teribus
Date: 05 Jun 17 - 01:48 AM

"We have to look everywhere to try to find the answers. Including inwards, at ourselves. Those treasured western values might prove to be not all they're cracked up to be."

So which of "Those treasured western values" do you find wanting then Shaw? Which of "Those treasured western values" should be scrapped in the vague hope of appeasing extremist Islam? Both Al-Qaeda and ISIS have told the world precisely what THEY want, just as they have stated quite clearly that there will be no compromise and no negotiation - you may be prepared to accept Sharia Law and the loss of hard won freedoms - I most certainly am not.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 09:58 PM

Steve Shaw:

You are describing one type of life as though it is the only type of life. As an example of another type of life check out the phenomenon of "honor killings". Those are up close and personal. Likewise the disfigurement of would-be wives or girlfriends by spurned lovers using acid. In the West we frequently practise male genital mutilation. In other parts of the world they also practise female genital mutilation.
These practices are acceptable for some. They are familiar to many more.

I think we can understand them quite easily. Different traditions/ educations lead to different outcomes.

It is easy to foment hatred. A woman from Alaska was killed in South America many years ago based on a false rumor circulated among a crowd. The whole thing happened too quickly and with NO intrnet required. We live in an age which is dealing with the internet being used as a tool not only of information sharing, but misinformation sharing.

We need to build tools of de-escalation. One of my favorites is from South Pacific

You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.
You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 07:34 PM

"Is it permissible to express hatred of the killers, their ideology and their fanatical supporters?"

No it isn't. It's permissible instead to try to get to the bottom of the reasons these things happen. Your hate is misdirected because the objects of your hate are dead. You're therefore wasting your energy. One man murdered young people at a pop concert and several others murdered people on and near London Bridge. They didn't know the people they were killing, and, unlike us with our smart bombs and cluster munitions, lest we forget, they killed them close up, having got among their victims first, in some cases seeing them eye to eye and ignoring the terror in their faces. I for one can't understand how this can be done. Those killers all had mothers who nurtured them, loved them. They had little childhood friends and delighted in their company. Whether they grew up as normal teenagers, with spotty faces, tears at the loss of their one-and-only loves, and chucking eggs at their dad at fourteen while calling him a bastard (which is what I once infamously did) I don't know. I don't get how a bloke who's been through that can blow up children or stab Saturday-night revellers or drive a van into people who might well have lived a young life just like his. If all we can do is say that we hate these dead bastards we'll get nowhere. We have to look everywhere to try to find the answers. Including inwards, at ourselves. Those treasured western values might prove to be not all they're cracked up to be. I'm just so bloody sad at the moment. Keep your hate for yourself. I don't want to know about it.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: robomatic
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 07:23 PM

Jim Carroll:

You remind me of a slogan on a T-Shirt that a girl used to wear in class (social studies) back in the sixties:

"It doesn't matter what you believe as long as you're sincere."

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 07:18 PM

Maajid Nawaz's Four-Point Plan To Defeat Islamist Terrorists

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 07:07 PM

Some insights as to motivation, methods and purpose of Islamist terrorism and suggestions on how to counter this ideological terrorism from a former Islamist now committed to counter extremism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=hPz_f-Nymx0&app=desktop.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 06:53 PM

Ask Ake.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 06:35 PM

And what does this have to do with terrorist activity in London yesterday?

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Greg F.
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 06:30 PM

Easy Al, I study the documented evidence of the official agencies.

And having done so, you proceed to spout made up bullshit.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 06:02 PM

Again, Jim. See what I mean? Where else but on this ridiculous site could anyone gat away with having a go at gay people on a thread about terrorists? Much as it pains me to say it, the nutters have won :-(


DtG

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 05:49 PM

"i dunno how Ake has arrived at the things he says,"

Easy Al, I study the documented evidence of the official agencies.
Homosexuality is extremely dangerous and unhealthy to those who choose to practice it.   We should not be promoting it or redefining marriage to accommodate it.
Don't take it upon yourself to patronise, I deal in facts......if you think what I say is incorrect get your argument out there and forget the psycho bullshit.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 05:16 PM

He's getting old!

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: keberoxu
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 05:15 PM

My Area?

There's a euphemism I never heard before....

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: theleveller
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 05:01 PM

The Maymoron and her Tory pack of hellhounds have done more to aid terrorist than any government in living memory by decreasing police numbers by 20,000, including 1300 fully trained firearms officers. Strong and stable my area. They'd rather hunt foxes than terrorists.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 04:04 PM

i think i hear inflections of what my parents generation, and old people said when i was a little kid - when i hear the racist and the homophobic sruff.

i know when i heard it the people who said it weren't evil. they just had an outdated understanding.

similarly , when i was teaching the Asian kids often wrote anti choice and anti gay stuff in their essays.

they weren't all bad people.

i dunno how Ake has arrived at the things he says, but he hasn't lived the life i've lived, and if he had - he wouldn't say them.

people don't say these things through choice and willfulness.. they say them...God knows why. let that judgemental bastard sort it out. don't sully yourself with it.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 04:03 PM

You are obsessed with your own little world of "racism" - completely off with the fairies.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 02:11 PM

"i never intended you to feel insulted Jim."
I wasn't Al
I was never fond of the 'swingin' sixties' (too prententious) but I loved some of the slogans of the time - my favourite being:
"Young people" - if you are fed up with not getting your way, why not fuck off and pay your own way while you still know everything"
"i just don't see that constantly turning on fellow mudcatters yields very much."
Deep down I respond as articulately as I can to everything I don't agree with
That's what were're here for
If I wanted to be nice to everybody I'd go down the pub and but everybody pints
I am never (knowingly) gratuitously rude unless when responding to gratuitous rudeness and I try to respond seriously on subjects I believe to be serious - like racism or homophobia or other forms of inhumanity and persecution.
I neer say anything I don't believe and I make a point of not lying (ecept tp policemen!!)
Can't see the point of being here otherwise.
I admire your efforts at peacemaking but that' not me
Sorry
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 01:48 PM

One of the problems with poaching an egg in a microwave is that even when placed in cold water, if left cooking for more than 50 seconds it will explode!!!!!

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 01:34 PM

and there are infinitely more important things than politics - let's see:

Treacle pudding
Beatles records
Spanish sun
fun

for starters!!!

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 01:31 PM

i never intended you to feel insulted Jim.

i just don't see that constantly turning on fellow mudcatters yields very much.

i never said any of those things were right - i said that's the political reality for whoever gets voted in. And deep down you must know i'm not lying, or distorting the truth.

being a shining example of decency is not going to be on anyone's agenda.

politics is about the pursuit of power. everything they say is qualified by that.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 12:27 PM

I applaud the exemplary actions of our brave police force at London Bridge last night.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 10:52 AM

"Maybe you can understand why I want nothing to do with it if carries on being tainted by such slogans."
All the more reason not to let them get away with it Dave
I watched May's abysmal dishonesty on her cowardly opting for a tightly controlled 'Dimblebyised'Question Time discussion rather than a face-to face - even there she was reduced to lying and avoiding the barrage o questions
It only takes honest people to stay silent to leave them the running
Bozo-no-brain - I ask you; wouldn't you worry if he was on your side?
He's the best argument we have
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: akenaton
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 10:36 AM

Must admit I'm a bit flattered Al ...:0)

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 10:21 AM

See what I mean about politicising, Jim? Maybe you can understand why I want nothing to do with it if carries on being tainted by such slogans.

DtG

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 10:04 AM

Platitudes from the woman who cut police numbers by 20000.

Subject: RE: terrorist stuff going off in London
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 04 Jun 17 - 09:06 AM

Absolutely magnificent speech by Theresa May this morning, the likes of which must be but a distant dream for Corbyn Harvester!!!