BS: Times A-Changin' Two

Subject: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 08:01 PM

With any luck, we can carry on here with a rational discussion of the original posting without the usual akeholes screwing things up.

Thanks -

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 08:18 PM

Heheh. Best post all week, Greg! 😂

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 09:19 PM

If you can avoid responding to trolls, those posts can be surgically removed. If you argue with them, all bets are off.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 03:06 AM

Thanks, Greg.

So, I think the last proper point was Stu saying the tide had turned with younger folk. I thought that was brilliant as the tide turning is another phrase for changing times :-)

Bob was saying that over 50 years ago. Is it different this time? Will the times a-change? I do hope so.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:20 AM

To take a typical Libran view (I am in fact a Libran!) a country needs both continuity (which helps retain stability) and change (which represents assessment, review and advancement) It's getting these in balance which creates a great nation and a productive, happy society.

My experience with some African countries has taught me that continual changes to the regime weaken a State, disrupt economy and cause confusion.

And it's surely obvious that throughout history, 'times have been a-changing' in spite of resistance from the old school. 'Twas ever thus'.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:57 AM

Well of course things are continually changing Sen, in both political directions, in my lifetime I have seen many changes some positive some negative. The problem remains that positivity and negativity are often in the mind of the observer.

The danger is when one ideology is perceived to be always positive and any alternative view always negative.

The "old school" is not always wrong, sometimes change is engineered for negative purposes.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 05:09 AM

I agree absolutely. The old is not always wrong and the new is not always better but one thing is for sure, we cannot stand still. Maintaining the status quo is not an option. Without forward progress we stagnate and sink.

Keep the times a-changin' and learn by past mistakes and improve.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:29 AM

When Dylan sang this song, I think Western society was undergoing one of the most enormous upheavals in its entire history. The world was changing exponentially. It must have been hard for the dyed-in-the-wool traditionalists to adapt and accept.

On a personal level, being an old biddy, I have to keep trying not to become a grumpy old bint, moaning about 'new-fangled rubbish' and harping on about 'the good old days'. It also behoves me to cultivate an interest and a goodwill towards young people. The ones I come across are delightful and very endearing. Irritating sometimes, yes, but I expect I was too when very young!

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 07:18 AM

"Maintaining the status quo is not an option."

This is the whole point really, isn't it? Learn, adjust, progress.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 07:21 AM

Learn, adjust, progress.

It is indeed, Stu. Trouble is that many people seem to have problems with the first one :-( We can only achieve it by working together. Not fighting each other!

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 08:11 AM

Sometimes, most times regarding social matters, the status quo is correct. Many issues which we perceived in the sixties to have a simple remedy, proved to be far from simple and were just spoiled children who punched well above our mental capacity. Lauded by a corrupt and preying media, we were the shining generation.....our ideals have become more tarnished as our life experience has increased.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 08:26 AM

We have all heard the saying 'the more things change, the more they stay the same'. This is not just geriatric wisdom.

I am a cosmopolitan minded American so I don't speak the same language as most of you. America is still billboardinary with infrastructure over 100 years old except for grand planned obsolescence projects. The UK has long since traded its regency for Big Brother but retained its majesty and respect despite the impoverishmentservative destruction by Thatcher.

Without a State Department or even a science advisor the US is on a new path I see as a downward spiral. What gives continuity to social and technological change is the pendulum reversal in reaction to each new direction.

Personally I think we are dealing with the new idiocracy quite well.
I have a clearer understanding of how a non compliance among influential smart people kept the Atom bomb out of HITLER'S REACH.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:00 AM

Sometimes, most times regarding social matters, the status quo is correct. Sez a white male. What a crock of shit.

The status quo, fifty years ago, had women as second class citizens, unable to do many things without their husband's permission, or unable to do things if they were unmarried. Fifty years ago. And then there was the pill, and the tide began to turn. Just over fifty years ago the Voting Rights Act was put in place to affirm and protect voting rights for anyone who wasn't a white male. And fifty years ago, there was the Sip in affirming the rights of gay customers to be served in New York bars.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:05 AM

As I said, the status quo is simply not a viable option. Things must change to stay alive. It is not always for the immediate better but if, as already suggested, we can learn from past mistakes, we can improve on it more often than not.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:27 AM

"Many issues which we perceived in the sixties to have a simple remedy, proved to be far from simple and were just spoiled children who punched well above our mental capacity. Lauded by a corrupt and preying media, we were the shining generation.....our ideals have become more tarnished as our life experience has increased."

This one of the funniest pieces of cod-social analysis I have ever read. Apart from only just qualifying as a couple of sentences, it's really a fine example of the sort of bollocks Bob was talking about in his song. It's virtually meaningless and only vaguely coherent. The words shot next to each other but mean absolutely fuck all when read together.

Leave it to the experts, eh duck?

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:37 AM

It seems perfectly coherent to me Stu, with a couple of typos, but I suppose I was there and you were not....duckling! :0)

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 10:36 AM

Well, I was there, Ake - and its bollocks.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: frogprince
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 11:01 AM

I was just bracing myself to post my response to Ake when I found that Acme had beaten me with her own words for almost exactly the same content. I was going to say, however, that not that long ago the status of women was actually effectively below the level of full citizenship.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Ed T
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 11:17 AM

"And stay right here, 'cause these are the good old days"

Carly Simon

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:25 PM

It seems I am now the troll to ignore and Ake receives lengthy commentary. This is a Trump distraction technique if you think about it. While my current opinion is firm and only subtly influenced by the collective, feedback is helpful while silence connotes consent. Total silence speaks volumes of clique.

Like dissecting a Trump tweet perhaps Ake's "Sometimes, most times" means "It is the best of times, the worst of times".

reprise: What gives continuity to social and technological change is the pendulum reversal in reaction to each new direction we take.

Personally I think we are dealing with the new idiocracy quite well.
I have a clearer understanding of how a non compliance among influential smart people kept the Atom bomb out of Hitler's reach.
Signs at demonstrations still say RESIST. Trump seems to say resistance is futile. He and Bannon are some kind of Borg.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:36 PM

I think most of us simply didn't disagree with your thoughts, Don.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:04 PM

I think most of us haven't a clue what Don is on about.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:49 PM

You havent a clue what he's on about. You haven't a clue what any of the rest of us are on about. You haven't clue what you yourself are on about. Apart from that, you're utterly hunkybloodydory.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 08:15 PM

hunkybloodydory is a term rarely heard in the USA. No doubt there is probably a very cultured explanation of its etiology and historical significance. It may not be the epitome of BS but everything is a mystery until learning takes place.

I figure hunky-dory is a less profane version. Is there a nautical connection by any chance?

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 08:31 PM

I made it up. I'm like that.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:04 AM

I am not sure if it is just an English trait, or maybe even a northern English trait, of inserting an expletive into the middle of a word. My favourite has always been 'I'm not surfuckingprised'

Anyhow, back to the plot. Maybe in some subtle way, Bob did change things. He influenced my generation for sure. Now, it may have been too late for the 60's youth to affect anything in the present day but we had children in the 70s and 80s. We influenced them. They are the next generation to take charge.

The times are always a-changin'. Let's hope that this time they have learned their lesson well (to quote another song) and improve things.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Senoufou
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 03:40 AM

Hahaha! Norfolk-and-good!!
And my favourite, Billy Connelly's "Cheeri-fucking-o!"

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 12:16 PM

I first heard Bob Dylan on radio in the early sixties...he sounded like one of the old American singers that I had been collecting shortly before, but I thought he was singing about politics like Woody, Pete and company......It turned out that he was no socialist messiah, but another talented money hungry professional.
It was only poetry folks, it meant what you wanted it to mean. Dylan had latched on to the spirit of the times, used it unashamedly and dropped it like a hot potato when times changed.

The man was a verbal chameleon, his political contribution zilch.
For the last forty years he has been irrelevant to social or political change.

I saying that, his acoustic songs were....nice.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Greg F.
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 01:16 PM

It turned out that he was no socialist messiah

Jesus wept.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: akenaton
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 01:51 PM

I never Know what's bothering you Greg....Pete Seeger certainly thought Bob was a political Messiah.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 09 Jul 17 - 05:11 PM

Bob Dylan claimed that he was no more than a rock musician. Discuss.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 02:12 AM

Jesus wept.

So would you with nails in your hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Allan Conn
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 02:28 AM

I don't get the idea that he (Dylan) latched on to the times then unashamedly dropped it when times changed! Surely he was initially just a kid finding his way and was inspired by Woody Guthrie and some of the other younger folk playing at that time? It would have been easy enough for him to just carry on doing his folk and protest songs as that is what a significant part of his audience wanted him to do. Instead he went electric and spent months touring the world getting booed most nights. For me that is someone more interested in their work than simply chasing the dollar. Likewise later he went back to bare basic sounds which was out of kilter with the main rock world - and then later he went all religious with some of his albums. Again not obviously someone seeking only the maximum sales!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Mr Red
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 02:37 AM

and finally he went making fancy iron gates. And he doesn't sell them.

Creative people like to create. Their world is "something new today".

As with the Nobel Prize. Once the creation is done, he is satisfied. Other peoples' applause is just a bonus.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Jul 17 - 09:37 AM

So would you with nails in your hand.

Wrist. And feet.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Donuel
Date: 11 Jul 17 - 09:43 AM

America used to be the kings of regime change. Now they are a distant 2nd.

Russia is now champion and holder of the extreme regime change trophy

Trump has not even asked for a rematch.

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Jul 17 - 03:18 AM

Wrist. And feet. yea to be pedantic but brevity is the soul of wit.
There are scholars in religion/anatomy that suggest the nails would have to go through the wrist or just above to hold a body in place. It is a plausable theory. Like the story? But I submit there would have been rope initially as any carpenter (sic) will tell you about nailing up a ladder. And maybe there were second nails just to be sure (whichever came first).
Nails were an unique exception, Roman crucifixions normally used rope - ask any Spartacus!

Subject: RE: BS: Times A-Changin' Two
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 17 - 03:30 AM

Jesus walks into an hotel and gives the receptionist three nails.

"Can you put me up for the night?"

I'll get my coat...

DtG