BS: Thatcher statue

Subject: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 08:26 PM

If this goes ahead, may every self-respecting pigeon shit on it daily.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 08:42 PM

You can be sure we'll do our part, Sir.
-Joe Pigeon-

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 09:02 PM

Normally I hate pigeons and seagulls..

but if they can form a positive alliance in this worthy protest....

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 09:06 PM

Not a good idea. If they've got to have one, stick it inside the building. Or maybe in Grantham.

In the open in London it would be almost as unpopular as one of Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 09:09 PM

there is one in the house of commons. i've seen it.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 09:21 PM

I think there should be lots of them. Very small ones.

You know about the flies at Amsterdam Schiphol airport?

https://worksthatwork.com/1/urinal-fly

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:14 PM

How truly pathetic do you twats want to make yourselves look?

She did more for this country than anybody your side could put forward and still managed to get elected after taking the tough but necessary decisions the equivalent in the USA would be FDR - come on Joe lets here you say what a complete and utter waste of space he was.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 07 Jul 17 - 10:36 PM

about 10 years ago a statue of our very unpopular Prime Minister, Little Johnny Howard, a great fan of Margaret Thatcher was taken to the National Folk Festival where I took pics of it. Unfortunately I can only find one pic of it at the National & it just shows the statue in front of a marquee. Over the 5 days it was decorated with a beer can on it's bayonet & cigarettes. People loved interacting with it.

Photo & info & comments about the statue

If the Boots Don't Fit "Taylor portrayed Howard standing to attention, rifle at his side, in full Anzac regalia – the Digger's uniform, the slouch hat and the old kit bag – all of it about 10 sizes too big for the little digger."
"Howard appeared to be swimming in khaki, his chin pointing defiantly upwards, his facial expression reflecting a state of innocent patriotic bliss. Before federal police confiscate the sculpture, television cameras and press photographers ensured Taylor's work national exposure. The first monument to Howard had captured an essential truth about his politics: his clever exploitation of the Anzac legend." Mark Mckenna, Patriot act The Australian, June 6 2007

Even tho one of his political enemies was shorter it was Howard who received the name Little Johnny (the shorter bloke was larger than life & a more human person)

The statue moved around a bit & apparently has not been since about 2007/8.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:02 AM

Not quite the same, but this came to mind:

"See the pigeons bless his statue,
Crown of stone wins no respect,
King with neither grace nor reason,
Heart of stone deserves neglect."

Fairport Convention - Here's to Tom Paine - YouTube

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:04 AM

"How truly pathetic do you twats want to make yourselves look?"
The voice of wisdom resonating in true tThatcher fashion
Apart from the massive damage she did to people's lives, the tearing in half of Britain, dividing it into haves and have nots, and the systematic destruction of British industry which ended all chances of us standing on our own two feet, Thatcher was a self-declared fascist
Then mass murderer, Augusto Pinochet was put under house arrest in order to stand trial for his crimes, Thatcher took up his cause and demanded his release.
From a platform draped with crossed Chilean and British flags in a hall in Westminster, she described those who arrested the fascist dictator as "running a police state" and declared his regimes actions of mass murder, wholesale rape and torture as her kind of "democracy" - there, but for the grace of God, would have gone Britain under her continuing leadership.
"According to the Commission of Truth and Reconciliation (Rettig Commission) and the National Commission on Political Imprisonment and Torture (Valech Commission), the number of direct victims of human rights violations in Chile accounts for around 30,000 people: 27,255 tortured and 2,279 executed. In addition, some 200,000 people suffered exile and an unknown number went through clandestine centers and illegal detention."
THATCHER'S DEMOCRACY
In the end, her own party disowned her as an embarrassment
One of the high points of British Politics in the latter half of the twentieth century was the sight of her being driven away from Number 10 in tears like a child who has had its favorite to snatched away
Pigeons - it's a pity elephants don't have wings.
"there is one in the house of commons. i've seen it."
If it is a large bust, it is probably the one which used to adorn the entrance hallway of The Conservative Association on the corner of Kings Road and Flood Street in Chelsea - I passed it regularly
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 03:10 AM

Time to close this thread perhaps?
Or is it a nice comfortable place for the intellectually challenged to hang out.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 03:22 AM

Ignore the troll.

I find it yet another example of one rule for us and one for everyone else. The longer it continues the more this administration is showing themselves up to be the hypocritical set of self-serving bastards that they really are. Cheer when rejecting more more for emergency services and then spend it on themselves and statues of their heroes. Sickening.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 03:31 AM

Thatcher was a very divisive figure, and a statue of her would eventually befall the fate of those of Stalin in the ex-USSR. Teribus, if you want a figure from "our side" who did more, clearly Clem Attlee, in whose watch the NHS and the welfare state, the tpwering achievements of post WWII Britain, were created. Even Harold Wilson, who kept us out of the Vietnam war (from which his successors might have learned). Thatcher destroyed whole communities.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 03:33 AM

Given that Margaret Thatcher had the unique honour of a statue in the Houses of Parliament lobby while still alive, another statue seems excessive.

I was due to visit Parliament in May, but it was cancelled because of the election. It has been rescheduled for September (to be cancelled again, I wonder?) And the memorial I most want to see? Emily Davison's cupboard.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:00 AM

"Ignore the troll."
Nah - every thread needs a Thatcherite Socialist
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:01 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Iains
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:01 AM

I think the statue should be placed in Parliament just behind the speaker, so all can be reminded of what a great Prime Minister she was.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:12 AM

Well here's another troll.
I too think she did a great deal for Britain. And she was a brave lady.

People who desecrate statues are morons. It's a childish and destructive type of protest.

Threads on here surely have room for opposing points of view?
Why insult and chase away someone who doesn't come from the same camp?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:18 AM

You are not a troll, Eliza. Nothing wrong with opposing points of view (apart from they are wrong of course ;-) ). You need to look immediately before my comment to witness trollish behaviour.

Hope this helps

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: BobL
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:21 AM

Perhaps Lady Dagenham's statue should go next to Old Noll's.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:29 AM

Threads on here surely have room for opposing points of view?
Why insult and chase away someone who doesn't come from the same camp?

I agree wholeheartedly. If any of us learn anything, it often depends on being exposed to a different point of view. So there is certainly a place for all comers.

People who desecrate statues are morons. It's a childish and destructive type of protest

That one has got me thinking a bit. Firstly, it is often the lower end of graffiti, like painting on a moustache, so I agree to that extent. And the costs of repairing whatever has been done are also reasons to object to that form of protest.

But it was the word 'desecrate' that got me going. Strictly speaking, that is intimately linked with the idea of 'sacred'; it is that infringement of the sacred that offends. But people are people: we all have strengths and weaknesses, things to be proud of and things less so. A statue or symbol that promotes the things to be proud of is one thing, but it is a distortion to pretend the other aspects don't exist. So actually I think sometimes the form of protest that involves revealing the limitations of a 'heroic figure' and thus lowering those exalted has its place.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:41 AM

You're quite right of course, DMcG, the word 'desecrate' does indeed denote rendering non-sacred a holy object or place, and it was ill-chosen. Although common usage does include 'to spoil or damage a treasured thing'
But venting one's anger on a statue annoys me because the sculptor has spent endless hours creating it, it stands in a public place and the damage/ graffiti offends the public, and the protest could be made in other, more civilised ways.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 04:57 AM

"Why insult and chase away someone who doesn't come from the same camp? "
In the case of Ake - that is eexactly what he did - suggest a thread should be closd because he didn't agree with it
Book burning writ small
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 05:02 AM

I agree, Sen: the common use does include the more general 'treasured thing', so it was not really an objection to the word, but more a personal exploration of what this feeling about the treasured thing/sacred object is, and why damage stirs emotions. The things you list are 'reasons', and I wouldn't disagree with any of them, but there is also a response that is emotional, rather than reasoned.

I keep thinking of DuChamp's 'Fountain'; there was a similar 'desecration' of the art gallery when it first appeared. But it led to a huge extension of what we consider art (for good or bad: discuss). That was a productive 'desecration'.

On the other hand, while I don't think placing a piece of turf on top of Churchill's statue has much to commend it, if it makes a few people realise there is more to Churchill's story than WWII, it served a purpose.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 05:12 AM

No, I suggested the childish comments generated by this thread make it unworthy of a rather good discussion forum.
Perfectly good and interesting threads are being closed to satisfy political bias, while we all sit round proffering childish insults on Mrs Thatcher, someone who never got my vote but was without doubt a parliamentarian of immense stature.
We have a democracy of sorts here in the UK and Mrs Thatcher was produced by the will of the people as was Mr Blair.....I agreed with the political views of neither, but accepted the decision of the electorate.....I pride myself in having more guts than to shit on someone who was placed in her position by the people of this country and who did what she thought was right for the country and her Party.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:12 AM

As for statues, I would never agree with damaging or destroying them (I might campaign to get them removed), but attaching scarves, hats, moustaches and pairs of knickers, etc., to them symbolises the fact that we live in a country in which you get yourself lionised at your peril and in which no-one is above ridicule. I like that. And I like it when it's done with humour. It's notable, and predictable, that the Thatcher supporters who've surfaced in this thread are being rather po-faced.

I was in Florence in May and it was amusing to see the replica David outside the Palazzo Vecchio with a pigeon on his head. Michelangelo would have been hugely amused (in fact, I'm sure he saw it quite often when the original was standing there - thankfully, it's now safely under cover). A pigeon may sit on the greatest statue in the world just as a cat may look at a king. Brilliant!

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:33 AM

Oh the odd pair of knickers tastefully applied doesn't worry me Steve.
Brits have always exercised their right to ridicule and satire, 'Spitting Image' for example) It's healthy.

I just don't like vandalism and destruction. As you say, there are other ways, such as campaigning, to make one's point.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Raggytash
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 06:52 AM

Because of the polarisation that a statue of Thatcher will undoubtedly create I would suggest that it would be vandalised on a fairly regular basis if in a public place.

We are told that we have limited funds in the public purse and the cost of repairs would have to be met and thus be a drain on the economy of whichever council area it was placed.

Thus in order to save money the easiest thing to do would be not to have it erected in the first instance.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Stu
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 07:12 AM

When should pigeons and seagulls has all the fun? If they put it outside I'll climb up and take a dump on the old sow's head myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 07:19 AM

i think Ake's got a point. At least she got elected.

you may have to embrace becoming a lying bastard to achieve that to achieve the popular vote, but its some sort of achievement.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 07:41 AM

"No, I suggested the childish comments generated by this thread make it unworthy of a rather good discussion forum."
bit ri8gch from somebody who describes anyone who disagrees with his opinion as 'mentally deficient' as you often have - a sign of mental deficiency in the poster, I would suggest
You don't debate - you post one-liners then spring away refusing to back them up with argument
"too busy"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Senoufou
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 07:46 AM

Perhaps the money would be better spent on some form of Trust in her name, which would have a charity as its beneficiary. Mrs Thatcher suffered from dementia in her last days, so what about the Alzheimer's Society?
Better than a lump of stone on a plinth.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 07:59 AM

Good idea Sen.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 08:40 AM

that is a good idea. however a hell of a lot of people voted for her and honour her memory. what wouldn't the tory party give to have someone as adroit in debate these days.

of course i'm slightly to the left of Pol POt - so i never liked her.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 08:55 AM

To my mind she was a hateful, divisive figure who had no time for ordinary working people and who wilfully destroyed communities. She enthusiastically supported a murderous dictator and was in bed with a dreadful US president who also loved dictators. Her me-first legacy has lingered on and has made this country a far less civilised place. Stick the statues up in Conservative clubs and spare the rest of us from being reminded of her.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:12 AM

"that is a good idea. however a hell of a lot of people voted for her and honour her memory."
How on earh does that excuse what she did, unless you are going to blame those people for the damage she did to Britain
A hell of a lot of people voted for Brexit, Donald Trump and Hitler
Sorry Sen - you are defending this woman by refusing to respond to what she did - or are we making it up?
Can't say I'm not disappointed
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:33 AM

no ones defending her - apart from the usual suspects.

its just that we don't go in for erasing people from photographs of an era in this country.

i used to walk past the statues of Redvers Buller on the way to college in Exeter.

if you didn't do statues of the right arseholes - we might forget about them. theres a statue of Cromwell outside the English parliament.

look at all those Holbeins of Henry VIII - did it make anyone forget what a bloodthirsty bastard he was. i don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Greg F.
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:38 AM

In the open in London it would be almost as unpopular as one of Hitler.

I should think MORE unpopular.

Mrs Thatcher suffered from dementia in her last days

Only in her last days?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 09:49 AM

I don't care about statues, never voted for Mrs Thatcher, what annoys me is the group here who want to shit and urinate on a democratically elected politician who no matter her political views was a hundred miles above them in guts and fitness to govern.

I don't like politicians in general, but sometimes they have a dirty job to do......someone had to make a decision on UK manufacturing, the alternative was national bankruptcy.....no one in the Labour Party had the will or the guts to address the problem....nothing new there then!

The answer of course was to adapt to conditions, change the system, but NOBODY wanted that....did they?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 10:25 AM

Three lines that time and not one single response to what she actually did
Do you think Pinochet represented democracy the yay thatcher claimed she did
If not, what on earth was she doing as Prime Minister of a 'democratic' country?
THatcher tackled the economic problems by diving the country sharply into haves and haven nots
The party which fought its way to power so valiantly under the slogan "Labour isn't working "complete with illustrations of dole queues) inherited an unemployment figure of less than one and a half million, in five years that peaked to over three million, and left the country with over 2 million unemployed
The hardest hit, with one in five people out of work were Norther Ireland and Northern Britain
So much for "Labour isn't working"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 10:31 AM

She showed over a decade that she wasn't fit to govern a chimp's tea party. Like the chimps, she left a trail of wreckage behind her. In her case it was people's jobs, communities and lives. Of course, the yuppies were happy. As for no-one in the Labour Party, etc., just a teensy historical note: Labour were not in power.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 10:59 AM

When they did come to power they continued the "wreckage".....outlawed socialism.....carpetbaggers.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 11:28 AM

Oh, well I suppose Thatcher upheld socialism for ten years (selling off the family silver, selling off only the choicest council houses at massive discounts, destroying industries, ruining whole communities, massively increasing unemployment, putting hundreds of thousands of fit people on incapacity benefit in order to stop the jobless figures from looking even worse, celebrating and protecting a murderous dictator, encouraging a me-first unregulated yuppie culture), just waiting for Labour to swan in and outlaw it. I mean, what planet are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 01:48 PM

Spending a small fortune commissioning, erecting, and maintaining statues is all a bit too 19th Century really.. innit...???

No matter how well deserved by a person's reputation - though obviously The statues for Billy Fury and Eric Morecambe
might be considered good valid exceptions here and now in the 21st Century...


Though it does raise interesting questions about monumental art in public spaces... and who should pay for it...????

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 01:54 PM

Oh dear, Maggie Thatcher, she left office 27 years ago and the usual clowns here are still whinging about her.

Since she left power we have had:

1990 to 1997 - Conservative Government
1997 to 2010 - Labour Government
2010 to 2015 - A Conservative- Liberal-Democrat Coalition Government
2015 to Present - Conservative Government

And not one of the policies of the 1979 to 1990 Thatcher era have been reversed - No renationalising of the railways who now carry more efficiently and with greater frequency more than double the passengers than they did in the days of strike bound "jobsworth" British Rail. No reopening and resurrection of the mining industry that cost the British taxpayer millions each day to bail out.

We do now have a Labour Party that has been hijacked by todays version of Militant Tendency that has proposed such reversals offering a manifesto that they claim is "fully costed" at £48.6 billion yet would appear to financial experts to be underestimated by somewhere between 150% and 200%

Margaret Thatcher took the country on as a complete and utter basket case (What Conservative Government has had to go cap in hand to the IMF for money just to stay afloat?) and completely turned the situation round - yes it was a painful journey but that appears to be the required task of any government who takes over from a Labour Government. In 1997 Tony Blair and Gordon of Cartoon took over from a Tory Government who handed on a nation in good economic state. This pair in the course of the 13 years they were in power handed over the Treasury with a scribbled note which read "No money left". If Corbyn ever gets in it will be ten times worse.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:03 PM

Dave,
then spend it on themselves and statues of their heroes.

It was funded by The Public Memorials Appeal Trust - a charity.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:11 PM

How unrealistic is it to imagine a hardcore volunteer platoon of elderly Thatcher fan club members,
voluntarily mounting 24/7 guard of her statue - armed with walking sticks, brollies and handbags - prepared to defend it against all assaults with their lives....

This promises to be quite some tourist attraction... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:12 PM

Once you let coal mines flood its next to impossible to reopen them. Still plenty of strikes and discontent on the extremely expensive and bloody unreliable railways. I've used the long-distance system four times in the last year and (a) it would have been three times cheaper and no slower to jump in the car and go on the M5/M4, and (b) not once - NOT ONCE - did the trains run anything like on time. Diabolical. Yes, the Wilson lot went to the IMF. The clown of the century Cameron has guided us out of the EU in the stupidest bit of short-sighted politicking ever seen in this country and the pound instantly devalued 20% and is going down, down, down. Wilson's devaluation was a bloody walk in the park in comparison. And Thatcher did not turn the country round. She left it bereft of major industries, left hundreds of thousands wallowing on incapacity or unemployed with no future and she devastated whole communities. Oh, and the poll tax, lest we forget. Another great piece of fine Tory judgement. The only people happy with her legacy are the unregulated yuppie brigade who we're depicted, not inaccurately, as waving wads of banknotes in our faces. Government by spiv. Maybe you were one of 'em, Teribus?

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:32 PM

Why is going to the IMF such a bad thing? Many governments, both Labour and Tory, did so in the 50s and 60s.

Subject: RE: BS: Thatcher statue
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 08 Jul 17 - 02:40 PM

i don't think you can ever make Thatcher fans give a shit about society and admit to the damage she inflicted on this poor nation.

they were obviously not living in a place where the ravages of her actions confronted you every day.

that was the secret of her success. she took care of the people in the constituencies that voted for her.

i can remember some members of my wife's family who lived in Sussex not far from Cambridge coming up to see us in Nottinghamshire.

Recession....what recession? they asked.

i think a statue would be pretty safe in those places.