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BS: Clerical Abuse of Children
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Sep 17 - 06:41 AM "I always maintained and stated that only a tiny minority were involved and still do" Suggesting that all male Pakistanis are culturally implanted to have underage sex makes them all unexploded bombs in our midst ready to go off without warning "we are all implanted by our culture" The fact that you still maintain that Muslim culture is the cause of underage sex is the reason your opinion is still quoted and will continue to be while you hold that view No Muslim has ever stated that view publicly, but many thousands have expressed fury at such a suggestion You choose to accept the invented view of your mythical six and totally reject the opinions of the many thousands who claim that their culture has no influence on the actions of a few criminals – a pick-'n-mix to justify your own views Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Iains Date: 28 Sep 17 - 11:02 AM I must say Jim you have a wondrous talent for totally missing the obvious interpretation of what people post and creating a stunning fabrication that only fits your warped view of the world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Sep 17 - 11:15 AM "I must say Jim you have a wondrous talent for totally missing the obvious interpretation " I must say you have an incredible knack of posting and saying precisely nothing What are you8 trying to tell us - without the abuse if you can manage it? Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 28 Sep 17 - 11:36 AM I'd love to know what "Muslim" culture is, or what is "Roman Catholic" culture. Can a religion practiced by millions spread all over the world have a culture. As Keith A has correctly pointed out ad nauseam, and others have obtusely refused to accept is the "Implant" jibe that although six years old that keeps getting dredged up did not make any reference at all to the religion of those found guilty of mass grooming and sexual predation of underage white girls. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: akenaton Date: 28 Sep 17 - 12:21 PM The "Church Hierarchy" did not sexually abuse mainly teenage boys and young men......adult males did. If you are unable to put two and two together to make four about who and why these crimes were perpetrated you must have little comprehension of the subject. You are simply desperate to shift the blame onto the organisation. The only blame which can be affixed to the Catholic Church is in allowing such an over representation of homosexuals in the priesthood. I homosexuality is recognised as a sin, why are ANY homosexuals allowed to be priests. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 28 Sep 17 - 01:06 PM And now we have another display of Ake's Antediluvian hatred Please don't use this thread as a platform - the victims of clerical rape have enough to cpe with as it is Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 28 Sep 17 - 01:42 PM Rochdale Grooming Case - Who said what: Mohammed Shafiq, chief executive of the Ramadhan Foundation, accused elders of the Pakistani community of "burying their heads in the sand" on the matter of sexual grooming. He said that of convictions involving child sexual exploitation, 87% were of British Pakistani men and it was a significant problem for that community. He said the actions of criminals who thought "white teenage girls are worthless and can be abused" were "bringing shame on our community." Now no matter how long I look at that, no matter how many times I read it - I cannot see any mention of religion, I cannot see any reference to "Muslims" or "Islam" - Can anybody else? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Steve Shaw Date: 28 Sep 17 - 07:55 PM Yes, Keith can. He did so this very day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jack Campin Date: 28 Sep 17 - 08:14 PM "The society follows the Moslem religion overwhelmingly (>99% predominantly Sunni). Perhaps the society is hypocritical or simply does not care, or perhaps religion has a far lesser impact on the way the people conduct themselves than many would think. Perhaps the Imans should pursue the issue." That was from Jim Carroll, as usual giving absolutely no way for the reader to identify what the hell he's quoting. I think the Muslims (NOT friggin "Moslems", please) referred to were Pakistani. The proportion of Shia in Pakistan is somewhere around 20% (not properly reported because it can be dangerous to admit to it) and it's likely that is reflected in the Pakistani-Brtish population. Shiism has a different problem. It's like Catholicism in that it has hierarchies of authority extending through several levels, though not to a single leader at the top; the Bektashi dervish order in particular has a very complex hierarchy (largely based on what they inherited from the Cathars). So it IS possible to blame the system. Which said, I can't actually recall any abuse scandals Shiites have been responsible for, though doubtless they've happened. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: robomatic Date: 28 Sep 17 - 08:57 PM Now that the thread title has opened to other 'cultures', this long term problem from Afghanistan I've heard specifically from a friend who travelled in Afghanistan and told me about this years ago. I emphasize that this may not be related to Islam, and is interpreted in some quarters as 'anti-Islam' but is so ingrained in society there that is has become an issue in American Afghan cooperation. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:22 AM "That was from Jim Carroll, as usual giving absolutely no way for the reader to identify what the hell he's quoting." Totally unfair Jack - I usually take pains to provide actual links, though I do read a great deal and many of the arguments I put up are my own off the top of my head - not quotes. These subjects interest me enough for me to know a little about them and not have to drag them up on the spot, as is the practice of some - I've even spoke publicly and written on some of them in the past. I find myself doing that quite a lot nowadays. Actually, it wasn't from me Jack, which was why I put it in quotations I was quoting Iain's earlier posting in order to establish where he was going in this discussion - I'm still not much the wiser, though others seem to have decided this is an opportunity to reopen attacks the Muslim religion Perhaps you should read what people put up more carefully Jack! "I cannot see any mention of religion, " Only by taking out of context and ignoring the thousands of acres of space that have been taken up quoting the Quran proving that to be the source of these crimes (still by a few criminals), can you possibly claim that this in not religious - of course it is, and always has been One regular poster once put up for of the largest cut-'n-pastes this forum has ever seen, dating back to pre-Christian times and dredged up from some of the most extremist sites, setting out to show that Islam is a degenerate religion and has been the cause of terrorism and oppression for millennia The 'implant' quote appeared on the same thread. As far as I'm concerned, the role of all religions, Christianity included, should be one of providing spiritual guidance to those who seek it voluntarily - once it exceeds those bounds it becomes intrusive, divisive, and eventually dangerous to the extent of being lethal - as it is now What we are seeing here is a "my product is better than your product" battle for the religious high ground. When it reaches that stage, a plague on all your houses Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Joe Offer Date: 29 Sep 17 - 03:49 AM This whole clerical sex abuse scandal is something that tears my heart asunder. There are several priests I've known and loved, including friends I attended seminary with for 8 years, who did these horrible things. There are two bishops I've known and loved, including my favorite professor, who did things that sure look to me like a coverup; and I don't understand it. I can't defend it and I can't understand it. -Joe- |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: akenaton Date: 29 Sep 17 - 04:01 AM Every organisation seeks to protect itself, religious, political, or social. The perpetration is easy to understand....with the will. Don't beat yourself up over this Joe, you are a good Christian as far as I can see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Iains Date: 29 Sep 17 - 04:53 AM Moslem/Muslim. Why the change? bit of history |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Iains Date: 29 Sep 17 - 05:15 AM Jim the point I was trying to make was that although the Catholic Church has ruled on Pederasty at least since the second century, other cultures under other religions have at least tacitly accepted/encouraged/condoned such practises. The prime example would be the Ottoman Empire and many other ancient cultures. The Catholic Church may have failed in stamping out the practise within their own clergy but their public condemnation of such abuse goes back centuries. A similar level of condemnation in Islamic cultures is not so obvious. Pederasty wikipedia https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2010/apr/25/middle-east-child-abuse-pederasty Some of your criticism of the way the Catholic Church handled abuse may be justified but it needs to be seen in a much wider context. Catholicism does not have the monopoly of black sheep. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Sep 17 - 06:39 AM "Catholic Church has ruled on Pederasty" Ruling on something is not a major issue unless it prevents something that is common practice, which I don't believe it is in any religious group - temproral laws have set age limits to sex which, I believe are quite adequate, if sometimes inflexible (they criminalise schoolchildren for 'doin' what comes naturally' without accepting the situation) The same applies yto many of the 'Muslim abuse' cases' which happen between young people and are blown up to become Islamic trafficking Gang culture in Britain, irrespective of race, includes the voluntary sharing of partners I can remember young women of school age being referred to as 'the school bike' because she enjoyed sex. If Christian ruling on pederasty was all there was, it wouldn't be in the situation it is today, but it extends far beyond that. In the past the enjoyment of sex was outlawed, as was open discussion, education, contraception, termination, the size of families, what you wore - even where you sat in church. The very natural (and enjoyable) act of sex was made a necessary evil - "the church won't stay out of our bedrooms" was a common complaint. The main targets for the Church's fury were invariably the women - they were the ones forced to the humiliation of 'the cutty stool' while the men were envied for their conquests Women who were seduces reluctantly or even raped, ended up in the Magdalene Laundries while the seducers and rapists were ignored. I can only say to Joe that he really hasn't anything to worry abou as far as his religion is concernd This has only ever been a religious issue by those who deliberately make it one - especially by those who defend what went on by accusing those who express our anger as attacking or hating Catholics - they are the ones who 'hate religion' It is churchmen and women who did the damage and the church hierarchy who protected them and allowed them to do it - and continue to sit on the evidence. Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: akenaton Date: 29 Sep 17 - 07:26 AM Jim, you are not addressing the salient points made by Iains, you are simply rambling and ranting by turns. If you had taken the time to open Iains link, you may have discovered the history and meaning of pederasty. It pertains accurately to the sexual abuse which is being exposed in the priesthood. Pederasty is totally different from the cruelty involved in the abuse of power which happens in many organisations not just religious ones |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: akenaton Date: 29 Sep 17 - 07:31 AM The Muslim abuse cases were also different , as they were based on financial gain, more or less a business. The abusers and abused were certainly not of the same age ...or the same culture. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Sep 17 - 08:20 AM "Jim, you are not addressing the salient points made by Iains, you are simply rambling and ranting by turns." You are the one who has made this religious Ake - now you are topping this off by being insulting as is your usual practice towards those who don't agree with you Ive dealt with me feelings about pederasty - you respond as if I haven't - which adds dishonesty to your CV Unless you are intending to actually argue your point, I suggest we leave it thare - I really have had enough of people like you Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 29 Sep 17 - 10:18 AM Clerical ADJECTIVE: - concerned with or relating to work in an office, especially routine documentation and administrative tasks. Didn't know that there were that many children around to abuse in offices and business premises. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Iains Date: 29 Sep 17 - 11:53 AM "temproral laws have set age limits to sex which, I believe are quite adequate," I suggest you research the subject just a little! Saudi has no minimum age and no one protests. If the country was just sand and no oil their repressive practises would lead to international outrage. But it is all very quiet! http://www.arabianbusiness.com/no-minimum-age-for-marriage-of-girls-grand-mufti-576044.html And of course modern day slavery. One example a few years old linked below. camel jockeys |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Sep 17 - 12:23 PM "I suggest you research the subject just a little!" I'm talking about our own laws - we are not in a position to legislate on behalf of other countries. Some of Britain's allies have an age limit as low as 14, in Mexico and the Philippines it is 12. As far as slavery is concerned, a recent swoop in Britain has revealed a major problem in slavery. Firms like Dell have been found to be producing computers produced in slave like conditions and some of our major clothing firms - Kellogg's, Unilever and Nestlé use child labour in their production of foods WE don't have to go as far as Pakistani to find the results of slave labour – your local high street will do nicely Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 29 Sep 17 - 04:14 PM God bless all here Jim Carroll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Iains Date: 29 Sep 17 - 04:37 PM Bible » Ezra » Chapter 7 » Verse26 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Joe Offer Date: 30 Sep 17 - 07:40 AM Iains claims above that nobody is above the law. That adage is meant to control the powerful; but so often it is misused to oppress those who have no power and no resources. Here in the U.S., those in power use the adage to control the homeless and the immigrants. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 30 Sep 17 - 08:05 AM The adage "No-one is above the law" means exactly what it says - a plain statement of fact - it was not meant to "control" any specific group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Teribus Date: 30 Sep 17 - 08:39 AM "Travellers don't have the luxury of having their rubbish collected as the rest of us do because they are not allowed to stop anywhere and Councils refuse to collect is" Neither do I, difference is that I take my rubbish to the local refuse collection/recycling facility, I don't just fly-tip it. I also do not take payment from others on the pretence of collecting rubbish for disposal and then just fly-tip it. Did you collect any good fly-tipping songs? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Sep 17 - 09:40 AM If national laws do not protect significant minorities, as is the case with Travellers in Britain and Ireland, then they are duty bound as human beings to protect themselves and their families (lack of legal protection has reduced Traveller lifespan considerably here – go look it up), Nazi Germany legally exterminated a quarter of a million European Roma because their laws allowed them to do so; to resist those laws would have been illegal by your argument (you people have argued the same logic for Trump's and Brexit's racism). You have been given the cost of fly tipping in Britain – the main offenders are overwhelmingly the settled community – there are not enough Travellers on the planet to account for worth of clean-up Your position is now openly racist As far as rubbish is concerned – travellers travel in small family groups and are no longer allowed to stop illegally with protection – it is at the Council's discretion and usually extends to around two weeks at most It really isn't rocket science to work out that the rubbish piles in Iain's links could not be accounted for by general household waste It has always been a practice of locals that, when Travellers are in the area, their sites are used to get rid of their rubbish In the 1980s, social workers, with the backing of local police and two solicitors working pro-bono, had the oldest Traveller site in London, Garrett Lane, Wandsworth, (George Borrow's old stamping ground) officially inspected and it was found that 85% of the rubbish, including sofas, chairs, wall cupboards and two abandoned cars had been dumped by locals alongside the Travellers own waste. The results were published in the Local Paper, The Wandsworth Borough News (no friend to Travellers) – we still have the cutting and have used it for articles and talks Your arguments are now openly racist – which is where these arguments always should have been This is the type of hatred that fuels exterminations Britain's Travellers are being legally ethnically cleansed – that is what you are supporting. Jim Carroll http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/this-is-ethnic-cleansing-68786.html |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: akenaton Date: 30 Sep 17 - 10:33 AM Getting back to the thread, I see the "liberals" got off the subject of pederasty pretty damned quick!! Too close for comfort chaps? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Clerical Abuse of Children From: Jim Carroll Date: 30 Sep 17 - 10:38 AM "The adage "No-one is above the law" means exactly what it says - a plain statement of fact - it was not meant to "control" any specific group." You can repeat this fascist adage as often as you like but it doesn't alte fact that Travellers are being ethnically cleansed and that is what you are supporting - it's known as the "Nuremberg -"we were only obeying orders" defence "I think you are losing it!" It's from the same source you quoted your "obey the law" quote, the difference being you were serious, I was showing how ludicrous putting forward a quote from a two thousand year old book of folk tales actually is I have put forward my arguments based on my personal contact with Travellers over a long period You have produced no counter-evidence, not even "made up Carroll shit", which means you are happ y with what is happening to an entire British community As I said - we are where we should have been at the beginning You are a pair of ethnic cleansers "got off the subject of pederasty pretty damned quick!!" I see you continue to ignore what has actually been said about pedastry Too close for comfort old chap? Jim Carroll |