BS: Restaurants and tips

Subject: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 08:48 AM

After a session of dentist torture yesterday, we discovered that our usual Cafe Rouge in wonderful Dulwich Village (pleasantly nested between infinitely more odious areas of south London!) was close for refurbishment. We had no choice but to try the Pizza Express next door.

The menu boasted that "all tips paid by visa/credit cards go to staff" - this would be under the "tronc" system under which recipients pay tax but are exempt from paying National Insurance Contributions on their share of the tips. HOWEVER, when I checked this with a member of staff, he said that they only receive 50% of tips, which is disgraceful.

In the unlikely event of us ever using Pizza Express again, we shall give the tip in cash to the waiter/waitress!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Stu
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 09:13 AM

I always ask the waiting staff if the tips go to them or are handed over to the owners. No tips to owners, just the staff.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 09:22 AM

1. Cheating their staff
2. Making misleading claims on their paperwork
3. (Possibly) defrauding the tax authorities by misrepresentation.


Naughty, naughty!

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 09:23 AM

I had a brief stint waitressing at a local Bavarian bakery and deli that was experimenting extending hours to serve sit-down dinners. One evening a particularly effusive customer left a huge tip, but it was on his credit card. I received only half of it, and no explanation. Ever since then I refuse to put tips on the card, it goes into the waitperson's apron when they pick up the receipts. Also, tax is paid on tips, but it is a formula. In theory someone could go through the receipts and calculate the tips as higher than the tax formula allows, so again, I don't document it.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 09:26 AM

Pizza Express is notorious for screwing its staff out of their full tip entitlement. I stopped going there for that reason many years ago.

In all the places I eat regularly, I know that the staff get their full share of the tips. And like Stu, I always ask what the situation is when I'm in a restaurant for the first time, though it might put the staff person in question in an awkward situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 09:58 AM

My tip for using restaurants is to check the toilets before ordering. If they can't be bothered to keep the toilets clean (bits the customer can see) I question whether they keep the kitchen clean.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 10:13 AM

I tip with cash -- 20% -- in cash whenever possible. Wait staff, at least here in the US, deals with this:

The American federal government requires a wage of at least $2.13 per hour be paid to employees that receive at least $30 per month in tips. If wages and tips do not equal the federal minimum wage of $7.25 per hour during any week, the employer is required to increase cash wages to compensate. As of May 2017, the average hourly wage – including tips – for a restaurant employee in the United States that received tip income was $11.82.

That ain't a lot of money!

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 10:24 AM

A letter to HMRC I think. VAT legislation provides that tips paid to staff under the "tronc" system are exempt from VAT. This amount must be paid into a tronc bank account, which is administered by a staff member designated as "tronc master". A PAYE account must be opened in his name with HMRC.

Tips on card takings can be verified by the daily Z roll summary, but not so with cash takings.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 10:34 AM

I question and abstain from the entire employee exploitation tipping convention / system.
I like food but detest restaurants.
So on occasions when dining out is unavoidable,
eat only in establishments where you pay up front before eating.

There was at one point talk in lifestyle magazines about high quality grub cooked up in canteen style self service eateries..
Like high end motorway service stations.

That appeals to me, but don't know if it ever took off and became popular.
Certainly not in my town..

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: MikeL2
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 10:48 AM

Hi

As my wife owned a pub when I met her; I am aware of tip "wangles".
In the pub we had a large jar on the counter with "Tips" on it.
That worked OK for most of the time. Some customers gave tips to who-ever served them. We had no problems with this.

When we go to restaurants I always find out how the tips are paid. If I don't find out I give the cash tip to the waiter - I know that in some restaurants more than one waiter can serve you. In this situation I split the tip and reward accordingly.

Recently four of us went to a newly opening restaurant. When I went to pay the bill and paid by card I was charged automatically with 25% on the bill. I complained and the tip was removed with apology saying the person that served me made a mistake. They said that she should have asked how much I wanted to pay but she didn't know.

As the food and atmosphere was great we have been back several times and now they don't ask. !!!!

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 10:52 AM

VAT legislation provides that tips paid to staff under the "tronc" system are exempt from VAT. This amount must be paid into a tronc bank account, which is administered by a staff member designated as "tronc master".
No, the payments are outside the scope of VAT (Not the same as "Exempt").
This is not reliant on them being accounted for by the Tronc system, or even being paid to the staff.
Details are in section 4 Here

Cheers

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 11:44 AM

Thank you Nigel Parsons, you are absolutely right, I should have said outside the scope of VAT - however, in practice it may be difficult to prove to HMRC that customers have a genuine option as to whether to pay the service charges. Is there any case law on this do you know?

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Senoufou
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 01:42 PM

I've always felt uneasy somehow at handing over a tip. (Not that I grudge the money at all, it's usually well-deserved) It feels so patronising or condescending, (sort of Lady of the Manor "Thank you my man!")
We love to give a generous Christmas Box to our binmen, postman and window cleaner, but that's a Seasonal gift.
It would be far better in my view if service/hospitality industries paid good wages to start with, so that tips weren't badly needed by the poor workers.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 01:49 PM

I can't stand the cloying fake servility in restaurants...

"How are you enjoying your meal sir ?...
[yes we all know how much we are ripping you off with grossly overpriced food and drink, whilst underpaying our staff in work conditions as low as we can get away with..]"

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: DMcG
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 02:01 PM

I always wonder why people tip the waiter with a varying degree of comfort, but rarely tip the kitchen staff. I would be less worried about a waiter only getting half if the chef got the other half.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 02:12 PM

I remember the late 80s, working for the marketing office of a prestigious Central London chartered Surveying firm.

The yuppie marketing manager taking us for team meals..

All that insincere flattery and servitude from the restaurant staff, in uncomfortably hot crowded rooms...
Egotistical show off salesmen in suits, conspicuous spending,
flashing their gold cards for 'impressively' expensive food and bottles of wine...


utter shite.. still makes me cringe...

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: JMB
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 03:09 PM

When I tended bar at several places, we kept the tips. I usually tended bar at either a cash only bar or at a bar where you buy drink tickets so I wouldn't handle the cash, but we had tip jars. Every once in a while you get some very generous tippers. When I talk to people who don't work in the industry, they say usually 15 or 20 per cent is a reasonable tip rate. I think someone once said 25. I've never had any issues working in this industry. The only bad experience I had when tending bar was at a festival and someone ordered a drink, and as I went to fetch it for them, a young couple asked me for drinks. I said I'd be right with them as someone was ahead of them. I gave the customer first in line their drink and then I heard the lady of the young couple holler "Hey, buddy! We ordered two Coors Lights two minutes ago. Hurry up!" I shrugged it off. I honestly never had any angry customers besides them. I had several customers where I knew their drinks. They had usuals.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 03:33 PM

Rapparee, I know little about the USA, but am truly gobsmacked by those numbers. Are you saying that for a typical waiter, four fifths of their hourly income is in the form of tips?

$11.82 is not very different from the UK National Living Wage (£7.50). $7.25 is very low. And $2.13 is another matter entirely, that is disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 04:49 PM

And they seem to refer to a waitress as a "server" would you believe!!!! English gone wrong!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Rapparee
Date: 24 Jul 17 - 09:58 PM

Yup, David Carter (UK). That's why I try to tip 20%. It can make the difference between someone having enough to get by or ending up skint.

A restaurant here in town put out a tip jar. Now they keep it behind the register -- someone stole the tips, jar and all. Now that's right down there at the bottom!

I don't find waiting tables to be a servile position -- someone has to do it, just as someone has to clean the toilets and build houses. I wish they were all paid what their job is worth to society, as I'd put a good toilet cleaner above many CEOs and all politicians I can think of.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: JHW
Date: 25 Jul 17 - 04:30 AM

The meals at Harlow Carr Gardens, Harrogate were priced without VAT so that was enough imposition at the till without any tip. They might have changed it. I don't go anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Jul 17 - 05:08 AM

Tipping is not expected in Italy, and tourists who leave big tips are occasionally regarded as mugs. But so many tourists do it that expectation in tourist areas is increasing.

I need to check Spain out...

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: FreddyHeadey
Date: 25 Jul 17 - 06:14 AM

According to the Pizza Express page the waiter should be getting 70% with 30% going to the cleaners and kitchen staff.
If tax is deducted I suppose that would make it about 50%.
All cash tips go straight to your waiter. But credit card tips and our service charge tips are different. Tips made on electronic card payments are fully distributed among employees as agreed by the company's Tronc committee, with no deductions. Currently, this independent group elects to give 30 per cent of card-based tips to cleaners, pizzaiolos and other kitchen staff; with the remaining 70 per cent going to the individual waiter as a reward for great customer service.
https://www.pizzaexpress.com/help-and-contact/where-do-my-tips-go 

" For parties of 7 or more adults (18+) we will automatically add a discretionary service charge of 12.5% to the bill.  Also, please note that our Jazz and Event sites will add a discretionary service charge of 12.5% to every bill.  

This charge is completely optional, so please ask your waiter if you would like this to be removed."
https://www.pizzaexpress.com/help-and-contact/do-you-add-a-service-charge-to-the-bill 

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Jul 17 - 06:51 AM

I'm having my hair cut tomorrow, (I'm beginning to look like a cross between Albert Einstein in old age, Ken Dodd and the Dulux dog) and I'll be tipping my delightful hairdresser as usual. But I always feel ill at ease doing so (not out of meanness, she's worth every penny). It just feels so patronising)

My poor hardworking husband on minimum wage scrubbing toilets gets no tips. Maybe a packet of Hobnobs at Crimbo.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: MikeL2
Date: 25 Jul 17 - 10:57 AM

Hi Steve

<"I need to check Spain out..">

I have a holiday home in Spain and both my sister and my wife's sister live there.

My sisters live in non-tourist areas and tipping is not expect them but they are gratefully received. They usually buy you a "drink on the House when you pay your tab.

My Place is is not actually in a tourist area but tipping seems to be coming in.

I have never been to Italy but we find that here in UK restaurants encourage large tips. And we find that they are very liable to "miscalculate" your bill. Always up of course.

We go Chinese often and recently after a highly alcoholic meal I paid the bill and gave a tip.

The proprietor came to the table and told me that I had given too much as a tip. Not many places do that !!!

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: EBarnacle
Date: 25 Jul 17 - 01:10 PM

This is the guide in New York State. Note that the rules only say "may" not "must" make up the difference.

https://labor.ny.gov/formsdocs/factsheets/pdfs/p717.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Rapparee
Date: 25 Jul 17 - 10:05 PM

If people need a service or other work, it's not patronizing to give a tip commensurate with the job done. That is, if they are not making a wage large enough to live on. I lived Norway, as everyone had a decent wage and tipping wasn't needed (but not discouraged, either).

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 03:38 AM

Don't you think that encourages employers to keep the wages low, thinking that customers will make up the difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 08:53 AM

MikeL2: I have never been to Italy but we find that here in UK restaurants encourage large tips. And we find that they are very liable to "miscalculate" your bill. Always up of course.

I've had several meals out in the UK in the last couple of years where the bill's been miscalculated too low....usually forgetting a drink, or even two!

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: JHW
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 09:17 AM

'Don't you think that encourages employers to keep the wages low, thinking that customers will make up the difference?'
Absolutely and to keep the menu price low. If I read "service is not included" I take that as a scam and certainly wouldn't leave a tip.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Greg F.
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 10:40 AM

Don't you think that encourages employers to keep the wages low

Employers don't need any encouragement to keep wages low and they sure don't give a damn whether customers make up the difference or not.

GTF - restaurant employee in former life.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: meself
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 12:19 PM

I'm sure any server would feel that the gratification gained from a non-tipping customer's solidarity would more than make up for the loss of income.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 12:31 PM

Me..???, I avoid eating in restaurants..

That is a far more direct and meaningful 'boycott' than not buying any produce from,
or twitter abusing bands & singers who perform in, distant 'blacklisted' nations...

.. or course the mrs thinks I'm an awkward anti social killjoy old git.... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: meself
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 01:24 PM

Reading your comments on this thread, I can't imagine how she could ever get that idea ... !

Having said that - I'm unclear how a private boycott of local businesses that provide employment - however ill-paid - to local people is particularly meaningful. I'm sure those local employees appreciate your silent solidarity, though!

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: meself
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 01:26 PM

Btw, I don't spend much money dining out, either - but that's simply because I'm a notorious tightwad - I don't claim any political motivation.

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: meself
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 01:29 PM

Btw, notorious tightwad I may be, but I always leave a decent tip. I've worked as a waiter, so I know what it's like .....

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: MikeL2
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 01:36 PM

Hi Rob

<"I've had several meals out in the UK in the last couple of years where the bill's been miscalculated too low....usually forgetting a drink, or even two! ">

The ones that "miscalculated" for us were in the centre of Manchester.
Could be we got all the rogues up here....lol

In Spain we have experienced bills that had items missed off. As most of the owners join us in drinks it is no surprise.....they are usually p....d.

Interesting though.

Cheers

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 01:39 PM

I worked in the steaming hot kitchens of a mega sized holiday camp restaurant washing up by hand..
no rubber gloves provided... had to buy them out my own pocket...

Our only 'tips' were getting to the end of the week without being sacked for some petty arbitrary spiteful reason...

One mate suddenly lost it, smashed a glass and slashed his wrists at the end of an extra stressful busy shift...

Things diners don't see... "How are you enjoying your meal sir and madam...?"....

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 02:04 PM

..anyway.. I typed boycott in ' '...

I have my own opinion on the value and effectiveness of political boycotts...

ok.. they at least give middle class students a warm satisfied sense that they are making the world a better place by not buying stuff
they probably wouldn't have bought anyway... 🙄

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: olddude
Date: 26 Jul 17 - 11:39 PM

I over tip and always cash right to the server. At least I know they got it

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 04:58 PM

I tip straight to the waitress (feminine) or waiter (masculine) !!!

Subject: RE: BS: Restaurants and tips
From: meself
Date: 27 Jul 17 - 07:45 PM

I don't care how masculine or feminine they are - I just tip'm!