BS: G.B. and N.I.?

Subject: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 05:14 PM

Just wondering why the athletics squad for us over here is referred to as Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

Isn't it the U.K.? Isn't there a title that includes all of the nations? Why do we add Northern Ireland?

Just asking... no agenda.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 05:44 PM

I know. It's a very clumsy moniker. However, didn't the relay lads and lasses do well!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:06 PM

Well, it is complicated. I remember a breakfast in a hotel sharing a table with some Americans who asked me to explain it. Off the cuff, it was a challenge, I admit.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:09 PM

Bloody brilliant performance, especially Gemili, but maybe wrong to single him out.So sad that Bolt and Farah didn't go out on a high, but all credit to them for appearing and for what they've done in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Kampervan
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:14 PM

DMcG, thanks for that, complicated but just about understandable. So why isn't the team called the 'United Kingdom'.
Not asking you, just wondered if there was an expert on this sort of thing to tell us.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:21 PM

Great night for sport. At least Gatlin was well buried in a team that didn't win.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 06:26 PM

My guess would be that officially there is no l

Aplace called the "United Kingdom"; only the "United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland". However both "Great Britain" and "Northern Ireland" are official terms. So it might be a jobsworth at work. Or there might be some obscure legal reason. Or that fact that the United Kigdom used to include the whole of Ireland might be a touch sensitive when the border issue is live at the moment. Or any number of other reasons I havent thought of!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Aug 17 - 08:16 PM

I suppose it's as well to remind people that Northern Ireland has never been part of Great Britain, and never could be, since that's the name of the island, not of a country.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 04:01 AM

I think for some reason unknown the team representing us at the Olympics has always been called Great Britain rather than the United Kingdom. I'm not sure but I suspect "and Northern Ireland" was maybe originally added way back because the Olympic Association in Ireland has since its inception claimed to represent the whole island and not just the Republic. In modern times the British team has used the term Team GB for its branding which has, maybe not surprisingly, rankled with some unionists in Northern Ireland. Folk from NI can choose which country to compete for and the bulk of them choose Ireland. Not sure if that'd be out of allegiance or maybe in some cases they have more chance of actually qualifying for the team that way!!!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:04 AM

It always amuses me how Irish sportsmen like Roy Keane ( a Corkman) suddenly become 'British' when they find fame
An interesting situation in the Six Counties at present
For nearly a decade the Unionists have had and abused their majority
Now the gap has narrowed and the DUP is starting to seek Nationalist Support
Wonder of the Nats will demand a £Billion bung for co-operation as the DUP did for Brexit
Jim Caarroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 09:36 AM

'Team GB' is actually the short form of the name of the UK's Olympic team. The official name is actually: 'Great Britain and Northern Ireland Olympic Team'.
The British Olympic Association started using the brand name Team GB in 1999...

British Olympics Committee issued a statement explaining that the name 'Team GB' represented not only England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but also the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and UK Overseas Territories such as Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands.
These Overseas Territories, it said, are not represented by the name 'Team UK' and would therefore exclude Olympians such as Mark Cavendish, a cyclist who is Manx, and Carl Hester, a dressage rider who from Sark.


Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/08/15/rio-olympics-2016-why-is-team-gb-not-called-team-uk-6068065/#ixzz4pdrLdnUkThe

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:00 PM

"Team GB' is actually the short form of the name of the UK's Olympic team. "
Wonder what they'll call it when Brexit breaks up the Union as it looks like it might
Little England Disunited,
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 03:55 PM

If they are really "Great Britain and Northern Ireland", then that would exclude athletes from the Isle of Man and Channel Islands. Which would be silly (Mark Cavendish for one could not compete at the Olympics). The United Kingdom is what they really should be called (until as Jim says the union dissolves).

I think that strictly, in a geographical context and forgetting politics, DMcG's link is wrong, and Great Britain cannot include the Isle of Wight, Skye, Hebrides, Anglesey etc. It seems to be a political convenience to state that they are included.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Kampervan
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:40 PM

Ok then, to turn the question on it's head, 'Why can't we have simple name such as ABC *(Associated British Conglomeration) that encompasses all of those regions/territories mentioned in the earlier posts.


They could all vote independently as to whether they wanted to be in the ABC or to apply for status as a competing nation in their own right

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Aug 17 - 06:58 PM

i just like watching fabulous athletes doing their best, win or lose. It's been fantastic.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 14 Aug 17 - 01:55 AM

Mrs. Fenswoman and I attended the IAAF World Championships 2017 on the first Saturday and Sunday. Great atmosphere, loved the stadium, one of the best sporting events I've been to.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 01:13 PM

i suppose we are a mixture - we could be called The Vindaloo Gang.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Aug 17 - 08:49 PM

The thing is, there has only been a country called Great Britain during the period between the Scottish Act of Union in 1707, when it was established, and the Irish Act of Union in 1800, when it ceased to exist.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 17 Aug 17 - 06:40 PM

call it something else then, call it Brechin City and neighbouring provinces

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:06 AM

David Carter but your point isn't logical. The state is called the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Isle of Man and Channel Islands are part of neither so even calling it Team UK would still exclude them from the official title anyway. Calling it Team GB still excludes them from the title but it also excludes one of the constituent parts of the state itself. I can't see how calling them Team GB and NI excludes Guernsey anymore than Team GB does!!! It may be a clumsier name and that is maybe why the easier Team GB was chosen but I can't see how Jersey or Man have any real relevance there. Don't follow that line of argument.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:23 AM

Does any of this really matter? 99.9*% of Americans think that the correct name for The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is 'England', so...

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 02:38 AM

It's going to become an issue as the "United" Kingdom become more disunited after Brexit - watch what happens when the borders do back up in Northern Ireland and the lorries start having to queue up for hours Al
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:39 AM

its the way of things. the first night i ever went to Spain i was in a bar in lloret de mar. the locals were saying - we get pissed off- theres no such country as Spain. We are Basques. WE speak Basque. The songs we sing aren't in Spanish. We hate speaking Spanish and paing taxes to Madrid.

The key to the thing is that some people are prepared to kill over these differences. other just smoulder with the injustice. others just want to carry on with their lives and leave the politicians to act like arseholes, which is what they're best at.

Charles Dickens had it right two hundred years ago. The only proposition that will ever work is if we stop trying to generalise and work out doctrinaire solutions. we have to simply act as decent human beings.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM

UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 05:17 AM

why the incident in lloret always stuck in my mind is that i timidly asked about the flamenco sounding music that was being played on the bar stereo.

THat's not flamenco! THat's the great Basque Folksinger, Ramon. He's our Bob Dylan! Flamenco is played by gypsies down in the South. That's another country! that's not Spain either!!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 06:23 AM

The UK doesn't want a hard border, but it wants things that make a hard border inevitable. Its position is incoherent and somewhere along the line it will have to compromise with itself. A high tech border for trade for example doesn't address population movement.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:17 AM

the position isn't so much incoherent as acknowledging that its a complex situation. using language to diminish your perceived enemy's position isn't going to help.

the idea of a hi-tech border seems a bit daft on the face of it. but one thing we can be certain of regarding NI, the answer doesn't lie in the past.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:27 AM

"UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU."

Any evidence to support the assertion that Dublin wants a hard border.

It is not what is being said by the media in the Republic of Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:40 AM

Rag,
Any evidence to support the assertion that Dublin wants a hard border.

How dare you ask me to jump through hoops Rag, but since you have, yes.
The Irish government have made statements about it.

DMcG
The UK doesn't want a hard border, but it wants things that make a hard border inevitable.

UK says a hard border in not necessary.

A high tech border for trade for example doesn't address population movement.

UK has no problem with population movement across the border. Ireland is not in Schengen and anyway UK wants EU citizens to have visa-free entry.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:41 AM

Sorry, I didnt intend to use language in that way: it was not supposed to be a value judgement, just a factual statement that the proposals do not currently cohere. Finding a resolution is possible but it will involve balancing the competing views within the UK.

I see only three solutions to the border problem, each of which will be hugely problematic. I hope someone comes up with an idea I havent thought of.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 08:53 AM

What statements professor, I have seen none, nor have I heard about or read any statement from the government in Dublin to that effect.

I would suggest you're making it up as you go along.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:04 AM

What "statements?" No-one has said they want a hard border. You are clearly being taken in by the nonsense-megaphoning of the DUP. But the obstinate fact is that if we leave the EU, and by doing so leave the single market and customs union and end free movement, there is inevitably going to be a tightening-up on the border. Maybe no-one wants it but the EU is not going to let the UK enjoy soft exceptions. Too many other member countries are watching like hawks, some of them not especially happy with their lot.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:10 AM

Rag, asking someone to support opinions and assertions has been decreed unreasonable behaviour by Jeri.

However, I disagree with Jeri. We can not make people justify their claims, but assumptions can be made when they can not.

Irish News,
"
FORMER taoiseach John Bruton has warned that Brexit could increase smuggling along the border in Ireland.
The ex-European Union ambassador to the US said he does not envisage passport checks on routes in and out of Northern Ireland once the UK completes the split.
But in response to a direct question at the House of Lords EU Select Committee on whether Brexit could be abused and become a smugglers' charter, Mr Bruton said: "Yes is the answer to that question too."
Mr Bruton joined former taoiseach Bertie Ahern to set out their biggest concerns for the Irish and Northern Irish economies and communities post-Brexit.
A recent suggestion that Irish ports and airports would become proxy points of entry into the UK and a type of frontier for British immigration checks was dismissed out of hand by Mr Ahern.
"I quite frankly just found that unbelievable," he said."

"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan has voiced scepticism over the reassurances."
http://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2016/10/26/news/new-irish-border-would-lead-to-increased-smuggling-says-bruton-755554/

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:15 AM

Steve,
But the obstinate fact is that if we leave the EU, and by doing so leave the single market and customs union and end free movement, there is inevitably going to be a tightening-up on the border.

UK government says it is not necessary.

Maybe no-one wants it but the EU is not going to let the UK enjoy soft exceptions.

Not UK's fault then. Or even Ireland's. Its that pesky EU.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:16 AM

Expressing concerns and doubts is not calling for a hard border. You've been sidelined for a little while now, Keith, but it seems that you can't wait to get back to being thoroughly vexatious.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:17 AM

"I would suggest you're making it up as you go along."

Gasp! Surely not?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:30 AM

There is absolutely nothing in the statement you provided to suggest that Dublin wants a hard border. Nothing at all. Zilch, Nil, Nought.

You may have also noticed that John Bruton is an EX European Ambassador and that Bertie Ahern is an EX Taoiseach and while they may be more aware of movements inside the Rialtas na hEireann, the Oireachtas, the Seanad Eireann and the Dail Eireann than you and I are they do not, and cannot, speak for it.

Back to the drawing board professor, you have no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:37 AM

"UK government says it is not necessary."
Given that Theresa May is still in charge we can safely assume that The Government' hasn't a clue as to what is happening
"the Government says" - you cannot be serious!!!
The border and the future of Irish security remains real cause of conscern in the real world
A few weeks ago the Bank of England made it clrear that the detrimental aftershocks of Brexit dure to the economic uncertainty will continue t effect the standard of living of the British people foor at least a decade
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:41 AM

UK government says it requires no changes to the current border.
Where is the disagreement coming from?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:46 AM

You made an unsubstantiated claim, you cannot back up that claim.

Forget it professor ............ to use one of your favourite expressions you lose.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:52 AM

Sinn Fein's Stormont leader, Michelle O'Neill, said the proposals were "big on aspiration but light on clarity".
"Whilst the British Government might say they don't want to see any kind of hard border or technology put in place, it will not be within their gift to deliver that," she said. "It will be the other European member states, who clearly think and believe we need to see customs controls."

http://www.itv.com/news/2017-08-16/brexit-keeping-irish-border-free-of-checkpoints-is-top-priority/

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 09:56 AM

Rag, UK government is adamant it wants no change to the border.
EU, which includes Ireland, does.

I am so glad that you support my case that it is perfectly reasonable to ask for substantiation here, and it is actually to be expected in a discussion forum.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:05 AM

You stated "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU"

You now quote a Stormont Leader and the UK Government.

Now I know you have difficulty with comprehending written English but a Stormont Leader and UK Government do not equate to the Government in Dublin.


You lose !!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:41 AM

The party of that leader is well represented in the Dublin Parliament too.
UK government is adamant it wants no change to the border.
EU, which includes Ireland, does.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 10:47 AM

I repeat you stated "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU"

You have no evidence that the government in Dublin wants a hard border so your statement is false.

You lose.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:23 PM

This is a completely ridiculous discussion. Keith has lost it. Just ignore the silly sod.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:34 PM

UK government has stated unequivocally that it does not want or require any change to the border post Brexit.

UK will not be imposing any changes, so if they happen it is not our fault.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 12:48 PM

You are talking about the British Government. Tell us about the Irish Government wanting a hard border.

You lose !!!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:02 PM

"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan has voiced scepticism "

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 01:39 PM

Keep trying. 😂