BS: G.B. and N.I.?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 06:18 AM

no i meant sinn fein.

i've never promulgated the idea that the English were in NI out of charity. merely that the english soldiers were being shot at by both sides, so the oft repeated idea from your posts that the average soldier had any more complex loyalties than 'a plague on both your houses' is a bit daft. they were as scared of the loyalists as the IRA. no one gives a shit about the beliefs of the guy with a gun pointing at them.

you've recommended i look at history books. can i recommend you look at the work of one of your greatest poets, Seamus Heaney. he was writing throughout the period. his insights and responses are just phenomenal so full of compassion and decency, and intelligence.

you confuse a more measured response for racism.

your harping on like some tedious rebel ballad. England as the pantomime villain. its not going to do either of our countries any favours. there are people out there who might believe you. i can't believe you believe it yourself. you've lived in England - you know its not full of people or politicians even who hate Ireland and the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 06:50 AM

"no i meant sinn fein."
So inn Feinn hads been bunged a billion by Britain (or anybody)?
Didn't know that !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 08:44 AM

"Both [Big Al & Keith A] have made racist statements"

No they most certainly HAVE NOT Carroll - as well you, or anyone else reading what they written, knows. Flinging out accusations of ".....isms" and "....ists" is your standard tactic against anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you in the slightest degree.

"Brexit will Northern Ireland detrimentally - your meaningless list carefully skates around that one
It is this fact that has brought The North and Scotland to leaving the Union"

You must be privy to far better information than anyone else on the planet then Jom because aat present no-one knows for certain whether the results of Brexit will be beneficial or not for whoever. One thing though Jom which must really grate your gears is that it might well be economic and trade considerations that ultimately unite Ireland as opposed too a bunch of "bombers" and clowns in masks waving AK-47s about.

As far as "facts" go Brexit has not brought anybody as yet to leave the UK. It is however a fact that Brexit has brought the UK into leaving the European Union - or was that the one you were referring to Jom?

Oh here is another FACT for you Jom - No political Party in Northern Ireland has been "bunged" anything - the GOVERNMENT of Northern Ireland has been granted an additional £1bn of funding for various projects, I will not bother listing them here, as they were detailed in newspaper reports - NONE OF IT WENT TO THE DUP. If you wish to maintain the myth that it did then prove it or STFU.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 08:56 AM

well it looked like a bung to most people, Terry. fair does..?

would they have got the support without a bung...according to Jim the tories are still calling themselves the unionist party in their title. i thought they'd dropped that. if that's right they were in the pocket from the start. but surely its a spoonful of sugar, with a bit of amphetamine in the right horse for their right result.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 09:25 AM

Jim,
Can you stop this hatred of the Irish Keith and answer the points honestly?

Jim the liar again.
You resort to lying about me. I have no hatred and have never expressed any.
If I have, quote me liar.

Both have made racist statements - Keith consistently so

Quote one then liar.
The very worst one, liar.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:08 AM

"Jim the liar again."#
Keith the denier again
Anybody who describes a nation's children to be "brainwashed to hate" has made the most hate-filled statement I have ever encountered.
Wanna deny you claimed this/
You were asked to describe this hate - you could not
Wannna claim this is a lie?
"No they most certainly HAVE NOT Carroll -"#
See above for Keith's - yours is in describing the Irish as celebrating mass murder and claiming they never relly wanted independence but were connned into demanding it by foreigners.
"bunch of "bombers" and clowns in masks waving AK-47s about."
Describing those demanding what is justifyably theirs by right - is pretty racist
Sure - gunmenn have been part of the call for peace, but Ireland didvided into two halves in a Civil War because of partition - wonder how many of those were "clowns in masks waving AK-47s about."
Plenty more, but that'll do for now
"he results of Brexit will be beneficial or not for whoever."
The Bank of England has said that Brexit will effect the incomes of all concerned for the next decade
No need to wait for a result - the question of the border and the peace process is already an issue
The Bung was to support the failing DUP (and possibly to pay off the forthcoming corruption trial)
"well it looked like a bung to most people, Terry. fair does..?"
That is what it's being described as
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-dup-deal-billion-pound-bribe-magic-money-tree-criticism-latest-a7809416.html
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:13 AM

Keith I have never suggested that there is a majority for a united Ireland. Simply stated that there is room for change to opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:24 AM

Sturgeon hasn't gone quiet on the referendum as such. The plans are still to hold one certainly if Scotland is taken out of the single market. It is the timing that has been confirmed as being once the results of the Brexit negotiations are clearer. I think Teribus is right in that she probably doesn't want one too quickly and probably never wanted one too quickly. Rather than being taken into the situation by the manifesto commitment re the change to our EU status, I am sure they would rather have played the long game as they have done for years. Unless there is a sea change in opinion (which I admit can happen) then sheer demographics mean a Yes majority will likely come about at some point as the older voters are replaced by younger voters. In Scotland the division between Yes and No is not so much sectarian like Northern Ireland can be. Much of it is age related. Supposedly about 70% or above elderly voters are No supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:29 AM

Big Al on page one of the 2017 manifesto they state it is the manifesto of the Conservative And Unionist Party


https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:59 AM

"i thought they'd dropped that."
I had to, but it's immaterial Al
Throughout the terror o the Unionist Government, they have been "the Conservative and Unionist Party" - so all the inequality and repression is down to both of them
Now Britain just bungs them out of taxpayers money - wonder if the Tories will declare it as election expenses!!
That is its purpose - to make up the numbers lost by an ill-judged election
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 12:25 PM

"Anybody who describes a nation's children to be "brainwashed to hate" has made the most hate-filled statement I have ever encountered.
Wanna deny you claimed this/"

Ruth Dudley Edwards certainly did.

Previously I also directed you to the television documentaries made for RTE about the disastrous border campaign fought between December 12, 1956 and February 26, 1962 - a complete and utter farce. The young "volunteers" from the South "brainwashed" into believing that they fighting to "liberate" the North were absolutely astonished to discover the ferocity with which their attempts at "liberation" were rejected by the people from the North. I used the word "brainwashed" above there Carroll because that is what some of the "veterans" claimed in interviews in those documentaries. As these programmes challenge and refute some of your dearly held myths you obviously did not bother watching them.

"yours is in describing the Irish as celebrating mass murder and claiming they never relly wanted independence but were connned into demanding it by foreigners"

It was you who claimed that the Irish Government were "celebrating" the events of the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Easter Week Uprising. I, on the other hand pointed out to you that in all official statements regarding the events the word used was COMMEMORATION - different thing entirely Jom.

Ah so Chief O'Neill never went to the Spanish for assistance in his war against the English? The price by the way was not Irish Independence but that Ireland would be come a colony of Spain and that O'Neill be appointed Viceroy. Oddly enough at the time England was at war with Spain.

Wolf Tone never went to the French to seek assistance in his rebellion at a time when Britain and France were at war?

The seven men who in secret in 1914 decided to mount an armed rebellion in Ireland at some point during the First World War did not send Sir Roger Casement to Germany to seek German assistance in this proposed rebellion?

Odd thing is, Jom, that there is documentary proof that all of the above took place, and the thing that thwarted ever single one of them was the Royal Navy.

Ireland was offered Home Rule in 1914 and again after hostilities in Europe had ended in 1920. The North accepted Home Rule in 1920 it was rejected in the South and a war was started which rapidly stagnated into a stalemate in the summer of 1921. A ceasefire was arranged and negotiations begun. The whole of Ireland was declared as independent in December 1922. Within 24 hours of that happening the Parliament of the North of Ireland exercised it's right to cede from the Irish Free State and rejoin the Union with Great Britain. You Jom, would appear to be a man who only selectively champions the right of self determination of people. A man who believes that people can be bombed and terrorised into a Union they want no part of.

Had the people of Ireland accepted Home Rule and Dominion Status both North and South as was offered in 1920 then Ireland more like as not would have been united and as independent as Canada, Australia and South Africa in 1931. Instead the mugs chose the gun.

"The Bank of England has said that Brexit will effect the incomes of all concerned for the next decade"

Dare say it did Jom - seems rather a good case of stating the fuckin' obvious to me. But you see Jom, Brexit is not just a one sided thing is it? But from the way things are being reported it would appear that it only affects the UK. The EU loses it's second largest net contributor (Effect here is that the others will have to up their subs to make good the shortfall if it wants to continue on a "business as usual" manner) and it loses one of it's best customers (The UK buys more from the EU than the UK sells to the EU).

"The Bung was to support the failing DUP"

Any proof of that Jom? Or is it more of your famous "Made-up-Shit".

As far as I am aware not a penny of that £1bn has been transferred to anybody and not a penny of it has been spent. If you want to state anything different then please prove it.

The link to the Independent article states:

"the agreement boosting health, education and infrastructure spending in Northern Ireland, as well potentially handing Belfast new tax-raising powers"

Sound like a "bung" to any particular party to you Jom? Big Al?

"the full amount of money would only be delivered if Sinn Fein returned to power-sharing in Northern Ireland, breaking a three-month deadlock at Stormont."

Also from your link Jom. Sounds a bit of an odd condition to put on a "bung" to the DUP don'tcha think Carroll Carroll?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 12:37 PM

Jim, T is right.
I knew little about it, but quoted Irish historians who said that it was so.
That does not make me a racist!

Why do you always have to make these things personal?
Why not just discuss the issues without making accusations and being abusive?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 01:34 PM

"Ruth Dudley Edwards certainly did."
Ruth Dudley Edwards is a self-described "revisionist historian", a right-wing crime-writer and journalistwith a good, protestant education at UCD, an apologist for Britain's atrocities during the war of independence
Your reference to the Border Campaign was as irrelevant to your racist description of the Irish as it was when you first made it
You may quote who you waqnt but in order to describe the children of Ireland as hate filled, you need to specify how that hate manifests itself
No serious historian has ever described Irish Children as "brainwashed" - that is the language of racists such as yourself.
"It was you who claimed that the Irish Government were "celebrating" the events of the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Easter Week Uprising."
The events of 1917 were not mass murder - and not considered such byy anybody other than racists such as yourself.
It was a rebellion which eventually brought partial freedom to Ireland and set in motion the fall of The British Empire - an act of International self-determination
Only jingoists like yourself fail to recognise that fact.
Any proof of that Jom? Or is it more of your famous "Made-up-Shit".
One of the alternatives being put forward at present is direct rule from Westminster - proof enough for me
The rest is your usual bullshit
"Sound like a "bung" to any particular party to you Jom?, Big Al"
THere's a hell of a lot of peole regard it as such - left, right and centre
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/27/tuesday-briefing-bung-parliament-mays-1bn-bill-for-dup-support
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/821441/Theresa-May-DUP-deal-Northern-Ireland-Wales-Welsh-First-Minister-Carwyn-Jones-Plaid-Cymru
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/gove-denies-controversial-1bn-deal-with-dup-is-a-bung-1.3140807
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-dup-tories-conservatives-1-billion-deal-in-power-marr-show-brexit-a7819016.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4658074/DUP-leader-flew-Belfast-20-000-RAF-flight.html
"Jom"
You never learn do you - your sttubu=id bullyiong tactics have led to your humiliating yourself over and over again, yet you still bully and bluster
I can't fight, but I can spit - eh?
"Carroll Carroll?"
Reduced to typos again eh - ah well, just as we were doing so well (not!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 01:54 PM

"I knew little about it, but quoted Irish historians who said that it was so."
You deliberately misquoted historians Keith and when it was pointed out to you, you continued to do do
The period covered by your "quotes" were up to the 12 years after independence, and even then, you didn't get that right - deliberately
But you could refdeen yourself by giving exampls of thet "brainwashing" of course - you were unable to last time
"Jim, T is right.
I knew little about it, "
At least you nearly got that right - you know "nothing" about it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 02:48 PM

they saying that one page 1 now, because they are toadying to the gang who will keep them in power.

its rumoured Theresa will dance the can can to The Sash Me Father Wore at the party conference.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 06:31 PM

Well then Jom, a song from someone who most certainly was NOT "a self-described "revisionist historian", a right-wing crime-writer and journalistwith a good, protestant education at UCD, an apologist for Britain's atrocities during the war of independence" - Dominic Behan:

The Patriot Game

(The Song Jom is all about those who joined to fight "Up North" in the Border Campaign 1956 to 1962)

Come all you young rebels and list while I sing
For love of ones land is a terrible thing
It banishes fear with the speed of a flame
And makes us all part of the patriot game

My name is O'Hanlon, I'm just gone sixteen
My home is in Monaghan there I was weaned
I LEARNED ALL MY LIFE CRUEL ENGLAND TO BLAME
And so I'm part of the patriot game.

Tell me Jom who was it that taught Fergal O'Hanlon in the song and Dominic Behan CRUEL ENGLAND TO BLAME

Oh Jom, here's the verse that the Clancy's would not sing:

This Ireland of mine has for long been half-free
Six Counties are under John Bull's Monarchy
But still DeValera is greatly to blame
For shirking his part in the patriot game

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 03:49 AM

Your pathetic point is.........?
I don't go to crime-writers or song makers for my history
If the Irish children had been brainwashed to hate Britain, then the Irish people, generation after generation, would hate Britain
As a whole, the Irish are a welcoming hospitable race, both at home and abroad - ask anybody who lives here or has spent time in their company
The Irish have every reason to hate Britain- centuries of oppression and contempt have given them every reason to
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/irish-butt-of-english-racism-for-more-than-eight-centuries-1342976.html
There is something ludicrous about two hate-filled extremist Little Englanders accusing anybody of hate when every word they type exudes hate and contempt - you are even incapable of conducting a simple discussion without attempting to talk them down -
"Well then Jom" - The Song Jom - Tell me Jom - Oh Jom, - (the contents of one short posting)
Your very presence oozes contempt and hate for anybody who disagrees with you
The pare of you are supreme examples of the hate and contempt for others you regard as inferiors
And you come here and tell us how others hate us
You are a pairt of pathetic racists - get a grip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 03:57 AM

Jim,
You deliberately misquoted historians Keith and when it was pointed out to you, you continued to do do

Not true. I quoted with links for there statements to be seen in their intended context.
One actually described what has gone on as indoctrination.

If I misquoted, produce the genuine quote. (Ha ha ha)

But again, why do you post accusations based on threads from years ago.
Are you incapable of debating the issue before us, referring only to what has been said in this discussion?

It should not be about me and your attempts to prove me some knd of "ist" by misrepresenting years old statements.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 04:08 AM

According to Kineally "nationalist myths" were taught instead of history, and according to O'Callaghan the children were "indoctrinated" with "anti-British propaganda."

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 04:13 AM

The issue first raised was:

"Just wondering why the athletics squad for us over here is referred to as Great Britain and Northern Ireland?"

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:03 AM

Yes, and if 'Team GB' represented not only England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but also the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and UK Overseas Territories such as Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands. maybe it's time for a new name. How about "Unites States of Britain". It would even avoid the problem of a hard border with the Republic of Ireland.
Customs could be dealt with electronically at any "USB port"


Boom tish!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:09 AM

"According to Kineally "nationalist myths" were taught instead of history,"
Kineally referred to what happened twenty years after independence, when, se said quite clearly, the education system finally caught up with many centuries of suppression of actual history
Irish history proper was never taught or properly researched uder British rule - even the language was outlawed
At no time has any serious historian claimed that "Irish children were brainwashed to hate Britain" - as you arrogantly claimd - that is your Little Englander interpretation of what she wrote
You, like your arrogantly strutting mate, are typical of the British hatred of the Irish   people, and the fact that you express that hatred under pseudonyms and from a distance, makes you the "heroes" that you are.
The Irish aren't alone - you express the same hatred and contempt for other cultures - Muslims, Travellers - taking the behaviour of a few criminals and fanatics as being typical of the entire "implanted" people.
You are ludicrous - the pair of you - hate-filled little Englanders whining about how children have been "brainwashed" to hate you when your own strutting behaviour invites contempt
You are typical of the worst aspects of an English education and culture that taught us to despise and pity foreigners.
THe Irish don't "hate" us, but, given your behaviour as an example, there is every reason why they should
"But again, why do you post accusations based on threads from years ago."
Because your attitude comes to the surface every time we discuss other cultures
You have never withdrawn a single insult you have made of other races or cultures - it remains your attitude to foreigners
You pollute this forum with your hatred
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:12 AM

When the American people take to the streets to oppose their president, your obnoxious mate describes it as "whining"
What are you pair on?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:35 AM

Jim, the priests told my cousin about the martyrdom of Roger Casement when he was seven.

Hate was in the curriculum. I'm sorry you don't get it. Truly sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:42 AM

Sorry All - how do you construe teaching history as it happened as "hate"
Do you think teaching The Battle of Trafalgar is about hating the French
Please don't be silly
Under British rule, Casement was criminalised and hanged - he was a hero
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 06:15 AM

he wasn't criminalised. he was a criminal for gawdsake! trying to get people to fight on the other side and bringing in guns to shoot at the home side's soldiers in time of war, is a crime. sort of Benedict Arnold crime - wouldn't you think?

anyway. they never told Bernard what he'd done. only that he was saintly poet, and that it was wicked cruel thing to do, which of course it was.

i know cos Bernard told me. Bernard and I shared a bed when we went to visit him. He was 7 and I was 6. It was a story he told me before we went off to sleep. Not being in possession of the facts, I couldn't give him much of an argument. Just as well, we'd probably have started fighting.

Which was presumably the aim of telling a small child that story. to get people fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 06:35 AM

Jim,
At no time has any serious historian claimed that "Irish children were brainwashed to hate Britain

Yes they have and I have quoted them.
Turn to page 35-36 of this book. Unequivocal.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1LIYBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=irish+school+education+indoctrinated+anti+british&source=bl&ots=6jFtelHfPN&sig=Nf3bTTHzwZiXECb8qnU_RoFW3tY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSs53kue_VAhUKCMAKHYsZBCUQ6AEIPDAD#v=onepage&q&f=false

Or the summary on page 60.

And, here is Kinealy saying the same.
" Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains. This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. IIn the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths. Thus, at the launch of the influential Irish Historical Studies journal in 1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border."

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 07:01 AM

For someone who frequently complains about his old posts being quoted back to him, and says such should not be used, it is quite ludicrous for that same poster to then use a statement about the way history may have been taught over 80 years ago.

Sauce, goose, gander.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 11:10 AM

i'm not that old. not quite!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 12:03 PM

Why is it ludicrous to respond to Jim's accusation that I am racist just because I repeated the findings of historians, or to demonstrate that Jim was wrong when he denied that I did?

It is a perfectly reasonable response to refute those accusations but
I do object to Jim dredging up these old forgotten discussions when they have no direct relevance to the current issues.
Why do you always do it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 04:39 PM

Basically professor because time and time again you show yourself to be a bigotted, blinkered racist.

Any evidence that the Dublin government want a hard border yet?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:14 AM

I am not bigoted or racist Rag.
None of you have been able to find a single quote of me being bigoted or racist.
It is just something you say when you are trounced in debate and have nothing else you can say.
It is an admission of defeat.

Look at this discussion with Jim.
Unable to make a case for forcing Ulster from the Union against the will of the majority, he calls me racist against the Irish.
His justification? That I once quoted eminent Irish historians on aspects of education in Irish schools!

It is just something he says when he is trounced in debate and has nothing else to say.
It is an admission of defeat.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:18 AM

Oh there are loads professor but you just deny them.

No evidence for Dublin wanting a hard border, you didn't mention that bit ..............

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:25 AM

Oh there are loads professor but you just deny them.

I deny them because they are ludicrous.
Historians say that there has been "indoctrination" in Irish education.
Repeating that does not make someone a racist.
Of course I deny such nonsense.

The Republic will suffer if a hard border is imposed, but EU may demand it to punish GB. I quoted a Dublin minister saying he had reservations, and Dublin will have to do what the EU tells them to do.

A hard border if it is imposed will be imposed by the South, not the North.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

No Dublin minister has stated any such thing nor have you quoted one.

You have mentioned people but have not given a single quote that even vaguely mentions a hard border being wanted by the Government in Dublin.

Your initial post was:

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM

UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU.

Now you have a choice, you can either provide evidence or withdraw your post.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 07:02 AM

He won't withdraw anything ever, Raggytash. What he's done is what he always does. He's made this all about him. It's his trolling hobby. We caught him good and proper with that silly throwaway remark about Dublin (making those is another of his vulgar, fraudulent habits). But never expect him to back down. Let's just lose.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 02:00 PM

The EU is threatening to impose a hard border.
The Republic is determined to remain in the EU and so will have to toe its line even though it will create hardship for Irish people on both sides of the border.
Deny any of that?

The quote I provided,
"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan has voiced scepticism over the reassurances."
http://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2016/10/26/news/new-irish-border-would-lead-to-increased-smuggling-says-bruton-755554/

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 02:06 PM

Steve, your personally abusive post was completely uncalled for.
Why not just ask me to justify my claim, something which you usually refuse to do but I always can.

"Dublin and the EU"

If EU wants a hard border, that has to be Dublin's line too.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 02:59 PM

I repeat your initial post was:

"Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM

UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU"

There is no quote from Charlie Flanagan apart from to suggest he voiced scepticism over Tereasa May "assurances"

That is not saying the Dublin Government want a "hard border" which is your claim.

When you can provide such ...................

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:14 PM

There is no quote from Charlie Flanagan apart from to suggest he voiced scepticism over Tereasa May "assurances"

Scepticism over assurances of an open border.

"UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU""

That is what I said and it is totally accurate.
Britain does not want it, but EU probably does.
The Republic is part of EU. What EU wants Dublin has to want too. Members of EU can not decide how their own borders are controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM

You are talking complete rubbish, Keith, and you know it. You said that that Dublin and the EU want a hard border. We've repeatedly asked you to support that VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE AND STRAIGHTFORWARD STATEMENT OF YOURS, Keith, but you can't. And we all know why you can't. Because it isn't true, Keith. Go ahead, Keith. Fudge and divert and dissemble and equivocate as much as you like. After all, that's what you've been doing for days now, ever since you said it and ever since we picked you up on it. Unfortunately, Keith, we are on your case. You think you're clever and devious, but we know that you're dishonest and disreputable. Thing is, though, Keith, you're a Christian. A follower of Christ. He said, let your speech be yea yea, nay nay. So how come us atheists can manage it yet you can't? Huh??

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 03:44 AM

It is not accurate though is it, you have no evidence that DUBLIN wants a hard border, none at all.

Everybody else seems to accept that apart from one Little Englander with known bigoted and racist views.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:02 AM

More abuse and even an attack on my faith now.
No wonder the forum is dwindling while vile abuse from Steve replaces reasoned discussion.
What decent person would willingly put themselves in the firing line for that, apart from me?

EU is threatening a hard border. Dublin is with them. Deny that?

UK says it does not want one, but Dublin's foreign Minister "expressed reservations."
Why? Because it can not stop EU imposing one, just to punish UK for leaving.
Deny that?

As I accurately stated, "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU""

Britain does not want it, but EU does.
The Republic is part of EU. What EU wants Dublin has to want too. Members of EU can not decide how their own borders are controlled.
Deny that?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:19 AM

I don't have to deny anything, it is up to you to PROVE a statement you made.

I will repeat it just for you: "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU"

Now go away and find some evidence that DUBLIN wants a hard border.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:35 AM

PS

Who "expressed reservations" and about what exactly. No mention of "expressed reservations" up to now.

Another of your fantasies perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:45 AM

... "Both sides want to avoid a hard border ... " according to this.

But I agree with the 'magical thinking' comment. The U.K. wants all the benefits of a hard border in terms of control without actually having one. Wanting something and getting it are, as many a parent has told their child, quite different things.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:25 AM

I made a mistake. Sorry.
Dublin's Foreign Minister did not "express reservations" he "voiced scepticism "
Not much difference.
He was sceptical UK could achieve an open border because the other side, Dublin and EU, would not allow it.

EU is threatening a hard border. Dublin is with them. Undeniable fact.

UK says it does not want one, but Dublin's foreign Minister "voiced scepticism."
Why? Because it can not stop EU imposing one, just to punish UK for leaving.
Undeniable fact.

As I accurately stated, "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU"

Britain does not want it, but EU does.
The Republic is part of EU. What EU wants Dublin has to want too. Members of EU can not decide how their own borders are controlled.
Undeniable fact.

All that nastiness achieved nothing.
You lose again.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:31 AM

Your naivety is astonishing.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:35 AM

it all gets too personal.

i wish you could disagree without calling Keith and Terribus vile names. THey obviously think differently from most of us, and feel differently. But that is a privilege we enjoy being members of a decent liberal society.

most of us would be for the chop in several countries that exist on the globe - just for stuff we've said on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 07:56 AM

The only I've called Keith is Keith. I've described him as dishonest, disreputable and Christian. I stand by all three and cite his behaviour in this thread ever since his blatantly inaccurate and unsupportable statement that the EU and Dublin WANT a hard border. He's playing his usual dissembling trolling game, Al, and he's enjoying himself. I'm amazed that he seems to have duped you into defending him.