BS: G.B. and N.I.?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Aug 17 - 02:27 AM

I know I am going to regret asking this but you said "It(UK) suggested there should be no border posts ... but that a mix of technology and physical checks..."

Where are those physical checks carried out? A temporary border post put in place for a day many have worked before the era of mobile phones, but as a means of ensuring smuggling is not going on it is fair to describe it as 'fantasy'.

And pointing out the proposed approach would not work is not to say I want a hard border: I don't.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 03:06 PM

Agree Rag.
Dublin will have no say in how its border will be operated.

EU dismiss the idea of no border posts.

The Independent
"It(UK) suggested there should be no border posts on Northern Ireland's border with the Republic of Ireland border, which has almost 300 crossing points, but that a mix of technology and physical checks should ensure big businesses were complying with customs rules. 
Labour at the time branded the idea a "fantasy frontier" and said the proposal lacked practical detail.
Speaking to reporters, the senior EU official also dismissed the idea.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-negotiations-talks-northern-ireland-border-magical-thinking-eu-david-davis-paper-theresa-may-a7913056.html

EU dismiss the idea of no border posts.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 02:58 PM

If you take Dublin out of the equation we JUST might be getting somewhere.

As I have already stated not one single person in the Dublin government has expressed one single remark to suggest that Dublin wants a hard border.

Not one single quote from any single person.

So if withdraw Dublin from your post we can draw a line under the issue.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 02:43 PM

Al, it was a statement of the position of the UK government and UK negotiators from the Prime Minister.
It sets out our position to the EU Brexit negotiators, the country and the world.

Steve, if no-one wants a hard border, there will not be one and there is no issue to discuss.

We know UK does not want one, but the indications are that EU does. They refuse to discuss it.
If they were content with the status quo why would they not say so as UK has?

Rag, I did not employ a team of lawyers to draft my post. As Steve said, it was a throwaway remark.
I did not expect you two to scrutinise every word for meanings I never intended.
I see where you misunderstanding crept in.

I said, "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU."

I withdraw and apologise for that statement.
Instead, insert, "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin/EU."

Dublin has no veto and is one out of 27.
Effectively it has no say.
What EU wants, Dublin gets.

There are only two sides on this. UK who do not want a hard border, and EU who are showing every indication that they do.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 01:27 PM

Theresa said she didn't want Brexit.

Now she is in charge of a government implementing Brexit.

What she says is....liable to change Keith.

its not worth arguing about.

talks concerning NI are never what they seem. Remember all the time THatcher was saying she didn't negotiate with terrorists and all the time she was doing just that in secret.

we simply don't know and we can't trust anyone.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 01:24 PM

"No such statement from EU leadership."

Precisely. No statement that they WANT a hard border. No statement from Dublin that they WANT a hard border. No evidence that either WANTS a hard border. But YOU asserted, without qualification, that they BOTH want a hard border. I'm a very simple man, Keith. I haven't twisted anything. I'm simply saying that you made something up, hoping to get it past us, and you are going to the ends of the earth to deny it. You are insulting and abusing us by taking that stance. You are assuming that we are too stupid to see through you. Well we're not. Vulgar and fraudulent. That's you through and through.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 12:52 PM

I should add that he is clinging on to that one quote rather than lose face, he really is a sad little cretin.

Even his normal running mates are keeping out of this one.

No apologies for the abuse.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 12:50 PM

Well Big Al, what can you say to that.

The professor has taken Charlie Flanaghans scepticisms over Teresa May comments regarding the border and decided with, no other evidence, that Dublin wants a hard border.

Please remember his EXACT quote was: "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU."

There is absolutely no evidence that DUBLIN wants a hard border. On Irish Television, Radio and press in the past 15 months not one politician has suggested any such thing.

I know you think that personal abuse should not come into the equation but as another poster once said what do you do with a "Thick c**t"

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 11:37 AM

Your twisting my words in comedic.

UK does not want a hard border according to the Prime Minister of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. No such statement from EU leadership.

If a hard border is imposed it will not be on the UK side.
EU will decide if there is one, but it will be Dublin uniforms behind the barriers.
A hard border will cause hardship on both sides of the border, but the other 26 governments only want to make sure that UK suffers so others do not follow.

UK on one side. Ireland/EU on the other.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 11:04 AM

"Charlie Flanagan voiced scepticism over the reassurances. UK might not want or need changes but his side might.

"Dublin will have no say in it. Dublin gets what the EU wants."

So his side might "want changes" but Dublin gets "no say." To Keith, this adds up to "Dublin wanting a hard border." We have now moved into high comedy.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 10:10 AM

You can buy Mammoth tusk dirt cheap if you don't mind dark discolored ivory that still smells like cadaver.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 09:57 AM

you are far too positive in your opinions, like you're some emissary from Planet Superior Knowledge.

Just like Steve, Jim, and Rag then.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 09:54 AM

I am not "privy to government thinking" Al.
The PM stated it publically and it was widely reported.
UK does not want or need any change to the border.

When she said that, Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan voiced scepticism over the reassurances. UK might not want or need changes but his side might.


Not a single person has spoken even vaguely suggesting the Dublin government want a hard border.

Dublin will have no say in it. Dublin gets what the EU wants.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 06:28 AM

I know Steve, I watch Irish Television, I read Irish newspapers, I listen to Irish radio. Since Brexit was announced not one single member of the Dail has ever suggested that Dublin want a hard border.

Not a single one.

Simon Coveney the Irish Foreign Minister said "Any barrier or border on the island of Ireland in my view risks undermining a very hard-won peace process and all of the parties in Northern Ireland, whether they are unionist or nationalist, recognise that we want to keep the free movement of people and goods and services and livelihoods."

Leo Varadkar the Irish Prime Minister (Taoiseach) said he and his government did not want to see any kind of economic border on the island of Ireland when the UK leaves the European Union.

Not a single person has spoken even vaguely suggesting the Dublin government want a hard border.

That SHOULD be easily understood.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 06:12 AM

We can only keep saying it, Raggytash. He is the king of denial, generally of the things he has plainly said in black and white himself. His last post is a typical example of his twisting and turning. There are bigots, nutjobs, obsessive, head-bangers and wearers of blinkers aplenty on this forum, as in the real world. But this guy is without peers when it comes to dishonesty. I don't think he can see it too clearly, because he's utterly dishonest with himself first and foremost. It's nothing to do with agreeing or disagreeing with him.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 03:55 AM

"Britain does not want or need changes to the border.
If they are imposed, it will be from the other side.
The side of the EU and the Republic.
That is what I am saying.
That is all I have said, and it is correct"

But that is not all you have been saying, you said clearly:

"UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU."

You have no evidence that DUBLIN wants a hard border.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 03:35 AM

well in truth Keith you have no reason to think you're privy to government thinking - as far as i know.

if Brexit ever happens, none of us really know how its going to work out. second guessing political situations is something we've all been wrong about. if we're honest. the unexpected is always on the cards.

who knows what's going to happen - perhaps the ulster unionist faction will demand having the border. perhaps Dublin will think - keep your stupid problems up there - it won't be the first time.

perhaps Corbyn will be elected and say it stops here. we are cutting NI free. Brexit won't work otherwise.

all kinds of things could happen. all kinds of extraordinary people could do and say extraordinary things.

the other side are too free with their insults. you are far too positive in your opinions, like you're some emissary from Planet Superior Knowledge.

theres an old Lancashire saying - when you get down to it, none of us know nowt! THink on la!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Aug 17 - 02:25 AM

Britain does not want or need changes to the border.
If they are imposed, it will be from the other side.
The side of the EU and the Republic.

That is what I am saying.
That is all I have said, and it is correct.
Calling me names does not change that, it just reveals you for what you are.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 08:44 PM

i'm not giving you a bollocking. i never would.

i just wonder why ake, Teribus and Keith keep coming back for more abuse.

occasionally things get to me. like the business of the world war one generals. that really upset me. loads of my family - both English and Irish - got slaughtered in that business. and every town had loads of casualties from it when i was a kid, families blighted.....

but the world is full of people who don't agree with me. i've had more than a few years to get used to the fact.

no tv station or even radio station plays the music i like. no political party agrees with me about anything much.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 05:32 PM

Who's bloody side are you really on, Al? We have here this moronic and dishonest individual who even a saint would rail against, and you have got it into your head that we need a good bollocking for "calling him names." You even expressed sympathy for poor Teribus a couple of posts ago fer chrissake, accusing US of calling HIM vile names. May I suggest that you readjust your mindset by reading a decent selection of Teribus's posts in recent weeks?   Get a grip, Al.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:29 PM

'sad little cretin'

i used to have a Latin teacher who called us names like that for not being able to remember lists of words that sort of stuff has resonances for me. we are all gentlemen of a certain age. do we really want stuff like that and the feelings it generates?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 03:42 PM

"Dublin "voiced scepticism" knowing EU would not allow it.
EU is determined to punish UK and deter others from following us out.
Ireland is part of EU"

Dublin voiced scepticism about Teresa May assurances, nothing more, nothing less.

Have you any evidence to show that DUBLIN, which was your claim, wants a hard border.

No, you haven't nor will you find any.

But as ever you will make this thread about yourself and your pathetic existence, and I know you will now bleat about "personal abuse"

You really are a sad little cretin.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 02:16 PM

Steve, as you said, it was just a "throwaway remark" but you are so desperate to catch me out that you seized on it.
And failed!

I said, "
"UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU."

I was right.
UK said it does not want a hard border.
Dublin "voiced scepticism" knowing EU would not allow it.
EU is determined to punish UK and deter others from following us out.
Ireland is part of EU.

I got it right.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 11:33 AM

He's a bloody waste of bandwidth, Raggytash. And that's being kind. What an ego.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 11:29 AM

You haven't justified it one scrap. And the first time we ask you to justify a statement you've made, a request that has to be made far too frequently as a consequence of your dishonest approach to discussion, we always ask civilly. You were asked civilly to back up your Wheatcroft balls-up and you were asked civilly to back up this. In both cases you utterly failed to do so, instead deciding to hedge and ditch around in order to demonstrate that Keith speaketh ex cathedra at all times. Our civil requests generally trigger a tirade of evasions and dissembling from you. As in this case. You cannot remotely demonstrate that the EU and Dublin WANT hard borders. The best you can come up with is that one threatens it and the other has to tag along. In neither case, even if they are true (which they are not), does it have diddley squat to do with your declaration that it's what they WANT. The jury isn't even out on this. You made it up in order to bolster whatever case you were trying to make. Vulgar and fraudulent.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 11:26 AM

A hard border would be very bad for the Republic, but they have no veto and will have to agree to whatever EU wants.
The EU seems to want it, and the Republic will have to go along with it.

I was careful to refer to "Dublin and the EU." They are a block. What EU wants Ireland gets.

It is pointless you demanding they be treated separately.
My statement was correct.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 11:12 AM

"He was sceptical UK could achieve an open border because the other side, Dublin and EU, would not allow it"

What he was sceptical of was Teresa May saying there should not be hard border, not that Dublin wanted a hard border.

"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan has voiced scepticism over the reassurances."

He was sceptical of the reassurances proffered by Teresa May.

Can you not comprehend the English language, Dublin do not want a hard border.

Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary ..........

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 11:04 AM

Steve, your earlier post to me was one of the nastiest I have seen here.
Why?
You only wanted me to justify a sentence I used. A perfectly reasonable request. No issues. You could have just asked nicely.

I had no trouble justifying the sentence, so now you both look very silly indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 07:56 AM

The only I've called Keith is Keith. I've described him as dishonest, disreputable and Christian. I stand by all three and cite his behaviour in this thread ever since his blatantly inaccurate and unsupportable statement that the EU and Dublin WANT a hard border. He's playing his usual dissembling trolling game, Al, and he's enjoying himself. I'm amazed that he seems to have duped you into defending him.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:35 AM

it all gets too personal.

i wish you could disagree without calling Keith and Terribus vile names. THey obviously think differently from most of us, and feel differently. But that is a privilege we enjoy being members of a decent liberal society.

most of us would be for the chop in several countries that exist on the globe - just for stuff we've said on mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:31 AM

Your naivety is astonishing.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 06:25 AM

I made a mistake. Sorry.
Dublin's Foreign Minister did not "express reservations" he "voiced scepticism "
Not much difference.
He was sceptical UK could achieve an open border because the other side, Dublin and EU, would not allow it.

EU is threatening a hard border. Dublin is with them. Undeniable fact.

UK says it does not want one, but Dublin's foreign Minister "voiced scepticism."
Why? Because it can not stop EU imposing one, just to punish UK for leaving.
Undeniable fact.

As I accurately stated, "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU"

Britain does not want it, but EU does.
The Republic is part of EU. What EU wants Dublin has to want too. Members of EU can not decide how their own borders are controlled.
Undeniable fact.

All that nastiness achieved nothing.
You lose again.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: DMcG
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:45 AM

... "Both sides want to avoid a hard border ... " according to this.

But I agree with the 'magical thinking' comment. The U.K. wants all the benefits of a hard border in terms of control without actually having one. Wanting something and getting it are, as many a parent has told their child, quite different things.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:35 AM

PS

Who "expressed reservations" and about what exactly. No mention of "expressed reservations" up to now.

Another of your fantasies perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:19 AM

I don't have to deny anything, it is up to you to PROVE a statement you made.

I will repeat it just for you: "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just DUBLIN and the EU"

Now go away and find some evidence that DUBLIN wants a hard border.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 04:02 AM

More abuse and even an attack on my faith now.
No wonder the forum is dwindling while vile abuse from Steve replaces reasoned discussion.
What decent person would willingly put themselves in the firing line for that, apart from me?

EU is threatening a hard border. Dublin is with them. Deny that?

UK says it does not want one, but Dublin's foreign Minister "expressed reservations."
Why? Because it can not stop EU imposing one, just to punish UK for leaving.
Deny that?

As I accurately stated, "UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU""

Britain does not want it, but EU does.
The Republic is part of EU. What EU wants Dublin has to want too. Members of EU can not decide how their own borders are controlled.
Deny that?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 26 Aug 17 - 03:44 AM

It is not accurate though is it, you have no evidence that DUBLIN wants a hard border, none at all.

Everybody else seems to accept that apart from one Little Englander with known bigoted and racist views.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:21 PM

You are talking complete rubbish, Keith, and you know it. You said that that Dublin and the EU want a hard border. We've repeatedly asked you to support that VERY VERY VERY SIMPLE AND STRAIGHTFORWARD STATEMENT OF YOURS, Keith, but you can't. And we all know why you can't. Because it isn't true, Keith. Go ahead, Keith. Fudge and divert and dissemble and equivocate as much as you like. After all, that's what you've been doing for days now, ever since you said it and ever since we picked you up on it. Unfortunately, Keith, we are on your case. You think you're clever and devious, but we know that you're dishonest and disreputable. Thing is, though, Keith, you're a Christian. A follower of Christ. He said, let your speech be yea yea, nay nay. So how come us atheists can manage it yet you can't? Huh??

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:14 PM

There is no quote from Charlie Flanagan apart from to suggest he voiced scepticism over Tereasa May "assurances"

Scepticism over assurances of an open border.

"UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU""

That is what I said and it is totally accurate.
Britain does not want it, but EU probably does.
The Republic is part of EU. What EU wants Dublin has to want too. Members of EU can not decide how their own borders are controlled.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 02:59 PM

I repeat your initial post was:

"Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM

UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU"

There is no quote from Charlie Flanagan apart from to suggest he voiced scepticism over Tereasa May "assurances"

That is not saying the Dublin Government want a "hard border" which is your claim.

When you can provide such ...................

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 02:06 PM

Steve, your personally abusive post was completely uncalled for.
Why not just ask me to justify my claim, something which you usually refuse to do but I always can.

"Dublin and the EU"

If EU wants a hard border, that has to be Dublin's line too.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 02:00 PM

The EU is threatening to impose a hard border.
The Republic is determined to remain in the EU and so will have to toe its line even though it will create hardship for Irish people on both sides of the border.
Deny any of that?

The quote I provided,
"Prime Minister Theresa May has said there should not be a hard border after Brexit, but Dublin's Foreign Affairs Minister Charlie Flanagan has voiced scepticism over the reassurances."
http://www.irishnews.com/news/republicofirelandnews/2016/10/26/news/new-irish-border-would-lead-to-increased-smuggling-says-bruton-755554/

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 07:02 AM

He won't withdraw anything ever, Raggytash. What he's done is what he always does. He's made this all about him. It's his trolling hobby. We caught him good and proper with that silly throwaway remark about Dublin (making those is another of his vulgar, fraudulent habits). But never expect him to back down. Let's just lose.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:31 AM

No Dublin minister has stated any such thing nor have you quoted one.

You have mentioned people but have not given a single quote that even vaguely mentions a hard border being wanted by the Government in Dublin.

Your initial post was:

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 18 Aug 17 - 04:44 AM

UK does not want a hard border Jim, just Dublin and the EU.

Now you have a choice, you can either provide evidence or withdraw your post.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:25 AM

Oh there are loads professor but you just deny them.

I deny them because they are ludicrous.
Historians say that there has been "indoctrination" in Irish education.
Repeating that does not make someone a racist.
Of course I deny such nonsense.

The Republic will suffer if a hard border is imposed, but EU may demand it to punish GB. I quoted a Dublin minister saying he had reservations, and Dublin will have to do what the EU tells them to do.

A hard border if it is imposed will be imposed by the South, not the North.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:18 AM

Oh there are loads professor but you just deny them.

No evidence for Dublin wanting a hard border, you didn't mention that bit ..............

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Aug 17 - 05:14 AM

I am not bigoted or racist Rag.
None of you have been able to find a single quote of me being bigoted or racist.
It is just something you say when you are trounced in debate and have nothing else you can say.
It is an admission of defeat.

Look at this discussion with Jim.
Unable to make a case for forcing Ulster from the Union against the will of the majority, he calls me racist against the Irish.
His justification? That I once quoted eminent Irish historians on aspects of education in Irish schools!

It is just something he says when he is trounced in debate and has nothing else to say.
It is an admission of defeat.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 04:39 PM

Basically professor because time and time again you show yourself to be a bigotted, blinkered racist.

Any evidence that the Dublin government want a hard border yet?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 12:03 PM

Why is it ludicrous to respond to Jim's accusation that I am racist just because I repeated the findings of historians, or to demonstrate that Jim was wrong when he denied that I did?

It is a perfectly reasonable response to refute those accusations but
I do object to Jim dredging up these old forgotten discussions when they have no direct relevance to the current issues.
Why do you always do it Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 11:10 AM

i'm not that old. not quite!