BS: G.B. and N.I.?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 07:01 AM

For someone who frequently complains about his old posts being quoted back to him, and says such should not be used, it is quite ludicrous for that same poster to then use a statement about the way history may have been taught over 80 years ago.

Sauce, goose, gander.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 06:35 AM

Jim,
At no time has any serious historian claimed that "Irish children were brainwashed to hate Britain

Yes they have and I have quoted them.
Turn to page 35-36 of this book. Unequivocal.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=1LIYBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=irish+school+education+indoctrinated+anti+british&source=bl&ots=6jFtelHfPN&sig=Nf3bTTHzwZiXECb8qnU_RoFW3tY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjSs53kue_VAhUKCMAKHYsZBCUQ6AEIPDAD#v=onepage&q&f=false

Or the summary on page 60.

And, here is Kinealy saying the same.
" Accordingly, in many Irish schools, a heroic but simplistic view of Irish history emerged, a morality story replete with heroes and villains. This approach, however, was subsequently challenged by the Irish academic establishment. IIn the 1930s, a number of leading Irish academics—following the lead of British historians earlier in the century—set an agenda for the study of Irish history, which placed it on a more professional and scientific basis in terms of research methods and source materials. At the same time this approach also demanded the systematic revision and challenging of received wisdoms or unquestioned assumptions. What was specific to Ireland, however, was the declared mission to challenge received nationalist myths, and by implication, although less centrally, loyalist myths. Thus, at the launch of the influential Irish Historical Studies journal in 1938, the editors stated their commitment to replace 'interpretive distortions' with 'value-free history'. To a large extent, however, this debate took place within the rarefied atmosphere of academia and failed to percolate down into the schoolrooms either north or south of the border."

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 06:15 AM

he wasn't criminalised. he was a criminal for gawdsake! trying to get people to fight on the other side and bringing in guns to shoot at the home side's soldiers in time of war, is a crime. sort of Benedict Arnold crime - wouldn't you think?

anyway. they never told Bernard what he'd done. only that he was saintly poet, and that it was wicked cruel thing to do, which of course it was.

i know cos Bernard told me. Bernard and I shared a bed when we went to visit him. He was 7 and I was 6. It was a story he told me before we went off to sleep. Not being in possession of the facts, I couldn't give him much of an argument. Just as well, we'd probably have started fighting.

Which was presumably the aim of telling a small child that story. to get people fighting.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:42 AM

Sorry All - how do you construe teaching history as it happened as "hate"
Do you think teaching The Battle of Trafalgar is about hating the French
Please don't be silly
Under British rule, Casement was criminalised and hanged - he was a hero
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:35 AM

Jim, the priests told my cousin about the martyrdom of Roger Casement when he was seven.

Hate was in the curriculum. I'm sorry you don't get it. Truly sorry.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:12 AM

When the American people take to the streets to oppose their president, your obnoxious mate describes it as "whining"
What are you pair on?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:09 AM

"According to Kineally "nationalist myths" were taught instead of history,"
Kineally referred to what happened twenty years after independence, when, se said quite clearly, the education system finally caught up with many centuries of suppression of actual history
Irish history proper was never taught or properly researched uder British rule - even the language was outlawed
At no time has any serious historian claimed that "Irish children were brainwashed to hate Britain" - as you arrogantly claimd - that is your Little Englander interpretation of what she wrote
You, like your arrogantly strutting mate, are typical of the British hatred of the Irish   people, and the fact that you express that hatred under pseudonyms and from a distance, makes you the "heroes" that you are.
The Irish aren't alone - you express the same hatred and contempt for other cultures - Muslims, Travellers - taking the behaviour of a few criminals and fanatics as being typical of the entire "implanted" people.
You are ludicrous - the pair of you - hate-filled little Englanders whining about how children have been "brainwashed" to hate you when your own strutting behaviour invites contempt
You are typical of the worst aspects of an English education and culture that taught us to despise and pity foreigners.
THe Irish don't "hate" us, but, given your behaviour as an example, there is every reason why they should
"But again, why do you post accusations based on threads from years ago."
Because your attitude comes to the surface every time we discuss other cultures
You have never withdrawn a single insult you have made of other races or cultures - it remains your attitude to foreigners
You pollute this forum with your hatred
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 05:03 AM

Yes, and if 'Team GB' represented not only England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland, but also the Isle of Man, the Channel Islands and UK Overseas Territories such as Gibraltar and the Falkland Islands. maybe it's time for a new name. How about "Unites States of Britain". It would even avoid the problem of a hard border with the Republic of Ireland.
Customs could be dealt with electronically at any "USB port"


Boom tish!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 04:13 AM

The issue first raised was:

"Just wondering why the athletics squad for us over here is referred to as Great Britain and Northern Ireland?"

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 04:08 AM

According to Kineally "nationalist myths" were taught instead of history, and according to O'Callaghan the children were "indoctrinated" with "anti-British propaganda."

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 03:57 AM

Jim,
You deliberately misquoted historians Keith and when it was pointed out to you, you continued to do do

Not true. I quoted with links for there statements to be seen in their intended context.
One actually described what has gone on as indoctrination.

If I misquoted, produce the genuine quote. (Ha ha ha)

But again, why do you post accusations based on threads from years ago.
Are you incapable of debating the issue before us, referring only to what has been said in this discussion?

It should not be about me and your attempts to prove me some knd of "ist" by misrepresenting years old statements.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Aug 17 - 03:49 AM

Your pathetic point is.........?
I don't go to crime-writers or song makers for my history
If the Irish children had been brainwashed to hate Britain, then the Irish people, generation after generation, would hate Britain
As a whole, the Irish are a welcoming hospitable race, both at home and abroad - ask anybody who lives here or has spent time in their company
The Irish have every reason to hate Britain- centuries of oppression and contempt have given them every reason to
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/irish-butt-of-english-racism-for-more-than-eight-centuries-1342976.html
There is something ludicrous about two hate-filled extremist Little Englanders accusing anybody of hate when every word they type exudes hate and contempt - you are even incapable of conducting a simple discussion without attempting to talk them down -
"Well then Jom" - The Song Jom - Tell me Jom - Oh Jom, - (the contents of one short posting)
Your very presence oozes contempt and hate for anybody who disagrees with you
The pare of you are supreme examples of the hate and contempt for others you regard as inferiors
And you come here and tell us how others hate us
You are a pairt of pathetic racists - get a grip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 06:31 PM

Well then Jom, a song from someone who most certainly was NOT "a self-described "revisionist historian", a right-wing crime-writer and journalistwith a good, protestant education at UCD, an apologist for Britain's atrocities during the war of independence" - Dominic Behan:

The Patriot Game

(The Song Jom is all about those who joined to fight "Up North" in the Border Campaign 1956 to 1962)

Come all you young rebels and list while I sing
For love of ones land is a terrible thing
It banishes fear with the speed of a flame
And makes us all part of the patriot game

My name is O'Hanlon, I'm just gone sixteen
My home is in Monaghan there I was weaned
I LEARNED ALL MY LIFE CRUEL ENGLAND TO BLAME
And so I'm part of the patriot game.

Tell me Jom who was it that taught Fergal O'Hanlon in the song and Dominic Behan CRUEL ENGLAND TO BLAME

Oh Jom, here's the verse that the Clancy's would not sing:

This Ireland of mine has for long been half-free
Six Counties are under John Bull's Monarchy
But still DeValera is greatly to blame
For shirking his part in the patriot game

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 02:48 PM

they saying that one page 1 now, because they are toadying to the gang who will keep them in power.

its rumoured Theresa will dance the can can to The Sash Me Father Wore at the party conference.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 01:54 PM

"I knew little about it, but quoted Irish historians who said that it was so."
You deliberately misquoted historians Keith and when it was pointed out to you, you continued to do do
The period covered by your "quotes" were up to the 12 years after independence, and even then, you didn't get that right - deliberately
But you could refdeen yourself by giving exampls of thet "brainwashing" of course - you were unable to last time
"Jim, T is right.
I knew little about it, "
At least you nearly got that right - you know "nothing" about it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 01:34 PM

"Ruth Dudley Edwards certainly did."
Ruth Dudley Edwards is a self-described "revisionist historian", a right-wing crime-writer and journalistwith a good, protestant education at UCD, an apologist for Britain's atrocities during the war of independence
Your reference to the Border Campaign was as irrelevant to your racist description of the Irish as it was when you first made it
You may quote who you waqnt but in order to describe the children of Ireland as hate filled, you need to specify how that hate manifests itself
No serious historian has ever described Irish Children as "brainwashed" - that is the language of racists such as yourself.
"It was you who claimed that the Irish Government were "celebrating" the events of the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Easter Week Uprising."
The events of 1917 were not mass murder - and not considered such byy anybody other than racists such as yourself.
It was a rebellion which eventually brought partial freedom to Ireland and set in motion the fall of The British Empire - an act of International self-determination
Only jingoists like yourself fail to recognise that fact.
Any proof of that Jom? Or is it more of your famous "Made-up-Shit".
One of the alternatives being put forward at present is direct rule from Westminster - proof enough for me
The rest is your usual bullshit
"Sound like a "bung" to any particular party to you Jom?, Big Al"
THere's a hell of a lot of peole regard it as such - left, right and centre
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/27/tuesday-briefing-bung-parliament-mays-1bn-bill-for-dup-support
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/821441/Theresa-May-DUP-deal-Northern-Ireland-Wales-Welsh-First-Minister-Carwyn-Jones-Plaid-Cymru
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/gove-denies-controversial-1bn-deal-with-dup-is-a-bung-1.3140807
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/michael-gove-dup-tories-conservatives-1-billion-deal-in-power-marr-show-brexit-a7819016.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4658074/DUP-leader-flew-Belfast-20-000-RAF-flight.html
"Jom"
You never learn do you - your sttubu=id bullyiong tactics have led to your humiliating yourself over and over again, yet you still bully and bluster
I can't fight, but I can spit - eh?
"Carroll Carroll?"
Reduced to typos again eh - ah well, just as we were doing so well (not!)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 12:37 PM

Jim, T is right.
I knew little about it, but quoted Irish historians who said that it was so.
That does not make me a racist!

Why do you always have to make these things personal?
Why not just discuss the issues without making accusations and being abusive?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 12:25 PM

"Anybody who describes a nation's children to be "brainwashed to hate" has made the most hate-filled statement I have ever encountered.
Wanna deny you claimed this/"

Ruth Dudley Edwards certainly did.

Previously I also directed you to the television documentaries made for RTE about the disastrous border campaign fought between December 12, 1956 and February 26, 1962 - a complete and utter farce. The young "volunteers" from the South "brainwashed" into believing that they fighting to "liberate" the North were absolutely astonished to discover the ferocity with which their attempts at "liberation" were rejected by the people from the North. I used the word "brainwashed" above there Carroll because that is what some of the "veterans" claimed in interviews in those documentaries. As these programmes challenge and refute some of your dearly held myths you obviously did not bother watching them.

"yours is in describing the Irish as celebrating mass murder and claiming they never relly wanted independence but were connned into demanding it by foreigners"

It was you who claimed that the Irish Government were "celebrating" the events of the 100th anniversary of the 1916 Easter Week Uprising. I, on the other hand pointed out to you that in all official statements regarding the events the word used was COMMEMORATION - different thing entirely Jom.

Ah so Chief O'Neill never went to the Spanish for assistance in his war against the English? The price by the way was not Irish Independence but that Ireland would be come a colony of Spain and that O'Neill be appointed Viceroy. Oddly enough at the time England was at war with Spain.

Wolf Tone never went to the French to seek assistance in his rebellion at a time when Britain and France were at war?

The seven men who in secret in 1914 decided to mount an armed rebellion in Ireland at some point during the First World War did not send Sir Roger Casement to Germany to seek German assistance in this proposed rebellion?

Odd thing is, Jom, that there is documentary proof that all of the above took place, and the thing that thwarted ever single one of them was the Royal Navy.

Ireland was offered Home Rule in 1914 and again after hostilities in Europe had ended in 1920. The North accepted Home Rule in 1920 it was rejected in the South and a war was started which rapidly stagnated into a stalemate in the summer of 1921. A ceasefire was arranged and negotiations begun. The whole of Ireland was declared as independent in December 1922. Within 24 hours of that happening the Parliament of the North of Ireland exercised it's right to cede from the Irish Free State and rejoin the Union with Great Britain. You Jom, would appear to be a man who only selectively champions the right of self determination of people. A man who believes that people can be bombed and terrorised into a Union they want no part of.

Had the people of Ireland accepted Home Rule and Dominion Status both North and South as was offered in 1920 then Ireland more like as not would have been united and as independent as Canada, Australia and South Africa in 1931. Instead the mugs chose the gun.

"The Bank of England has said that Brexit will effect the incomes of all concerned for the next decade"

Dare say it did Jom - seems rather a good case of stating the fuckin' obvious to me. But you see Jom, Brexit is not just a one sided thing is it? But from the way things are being reported it would appear that it only affects the UK. The EU loses it's second largest net contributor (Effect here is that the others will have to up their subs to make good the shortfall if it wants to continue on a "business as usual" manner) and it loses one of it's best customers (The UK buys more from the EU than the UK sells to the EU).

"The Bung was to support the failing DUP"

Any proof of that Jom? Or is it more of your famous "Made-up-Shit".

As far as I am aware not a penny of that £1bn has been transferred to anybody and not a penny of it has been spent. If you want to state anything different then please prove it.

The link to the Independent article states:

"the agreement boosting health, education and infrastructure spending in Northern Ireland, as well potentially handing Belfast new tax-raising powers"

Sound like a "bung" to any particular party to you Jom? Big Al?

"the full amount of money would only be delivered if Sinn Fein returned to power-sharing in Northern Ireland, breaking a three-month deadlock at Stormont."

Also from your link Jom. Sounds a bit of an odd condition to put on a "bung" to the DUP don'tcha think Carroll Carroll?

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:59 AM

"i thought they'd dropped that."
I had to, but it's immaterial Al
Throughout the terror o the Unionist Government, they have been "the Conservative and Unionist Party" - so all the inequality and repression is down to both of them
Now Britain just bungs them out of taxpayers money - wonder if the Tories will declare it as election expenses!!
That is its purpose - to make up the numbers lost by an ill-judged election
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:29 AM

Big Al on page one of the 2017 manifesto they state it is the manifesto of the Conservative And Unionist Party


https://www.conservatives.com/manifesto

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:24 AM

Sturgeon hasn't gone quiet on the referendum as such. The plans are still to hold one certainly if Scotland is taken out of the single market. It is the timing that has been confirmed as being once the results of the Brexit negotiations are clearer. I think Teribus is right in that she probably doesn't want one too quickly and probably never wanted one too quickly. Rather than being taken into the situation by the manifesto commitment re the change to our EU status, I am sure they would rather have played the long game as they have done for years. Unless there is a sea change in opinion (which I admit can happen) then sheer demographics mean a Yes majority will likely come about at some point as the older voters are replaced by younger voters. In Scotland the division between Yes and No is not so much sectarian like Northern Ireland can be. Much of it is age related. Supposedly about 70% or above elderly voters are No supporters.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:13 AM

Keith I have never suggested that there is a majority for a united Ireland. Simply stated that there is room for change to opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 11:08 AM

"Jim the liar again."#
Keith the denier again
Anybody who describes a nation's children to be "brainwashed to hate" has made the most hate-filled statement I have ever encountered.
Wanna deny you claimed this/
You were asked to describe this hate - you could not
Wannna claim this is a lie?
"No they most certainly HAVE NOT Carroll -"#
See above for Keith's - yours is in describing the Irish as celebrating mass murder and claiming they never relly wanted independence but were connned into demanding it by foreigners.
"bunch of "bombers" and clowns in masks waving AK-47s about."
Describing those demanding what is justifyably theirs by right - is pretty racist
Sure - gunmenn have been part of the call for peace, but Ireland didvided into two halves in a Civil War because of partition - wonder how many of those were "clowns in masks waving AK-47s about."
Plenty more, but that'll do for now
"he results of Brexit will be beneficial or not for whoever."
The Bank of England has said that Brexit will effect the incomes of all concerned for the next decade
No need to wait for a result - the question of the border and the peace process is already an issue
The Bung was to support the failing DUP (and possibly to pay off the forthcoming corruption trial)
"well it looked like a bung to most people, Terry. fair does..?"
That is what it's being described as
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-dup-deal-billion-pound-bribe-magic-money-tree-criticism-latest-a7809416.html
Jim Carroll
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 09:25 AM

Jim,
Can you stop this hatred of the Irish Keith and answer the points honestly?

Jim the liar again.
You resort to lying about me. I have no hatred and have never expressed any.
If I have, quote me liar.

Both have made racist statements - Keith consistently so

Quote one then liar.
The very worst one, liar.
You should be ashamed of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 08:56 AM

well it looked like a bung to most people, Terry. fair does..?

would they have got the support without a bung...according to Jim the tories are still calling themselves the unionist party in their title. i thought they'd dropped that. if that's right they were in the pocket from the start. but surely its a spoonful of sugar, with a bit of amphetamine in the right horse for their right result.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 08:44 AM

"Both [Big Al & Keith A] have made racist statements"

No they most certainly HAVE NOT Carroll - as well you, or anyone else reading what they written, knows. Flinging out accusations of ".....isms" and "....ists" is your standard tactic against anyone who has the temerity to disagree with you in the slightest degree.

"Brexit will Northern Ireland detrimentally - your meaningless list carefully skates around that one
It is this fact that has brought The North and Scotland to leaving the Union"

You must be privy to far better information than anyone else on the planet then Jom because aat present no-one knows for certain whether the results of Brexit will be beneficial or not for whoever. One thing though Jom which must really grate your gears is that it might well be economic and trade considerations that ultimately unite Ireland as opposed too a bunch of "bombers" and clowns in masks waving AK-47s about.

As far as "facts" go Brexit has not brought anybody as yet to leave the UK. It is however a fact that Brexit has brought the UK into leaving the European Union - or was that the one you were referring to Jom?

Oh here is another FACT for you Jom - No political Party in Northern Ireland has been "bunged" anything - the GOVERNMENT of Northern Ireland has been granted an additional £1bn of funding for various projects, I will not bother listing them here, as they were detailed in newspaper reports - NONE OF IT WENT TO THE DUP. If you wish to maintain the myth that it did then prove it or STFU.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 06:50 AM

"no i meant sinn fein."
So inn Feinn hads been bunged a billion by Britain (or anybody)?
Didn't know that !
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 06:18 AM

no i meant sinn fein.

i've never promulgated the idea that the English were in NI out of charity. merely that the english soldiers were being shot at by both sides, so the oft repeated idea from your posts that the average soldier had any more complex loyalties than 'a plague on both your houses' is a bit daft. they were as scared of the loyalists as the IRA. no one gives a shit about the beliefs of the guy with a gun pointing at them.

you've recommended i look at history books. can i recommend you look at the work of one of your greatest poets, Seamus Heaney. he was writing throughout the period. his insights and responses are just phenomenal so full of compassion and decency, and intelligence.

you confuse a more measured response for racism.

your harping on like some tedious rebel ballad. England as the pantomime villain. its not going to do either of our countries any favours. there are people out there who might believe you. i can't believe you believe it yourself. you've lived in England - you know its not full of people or politicians even who hate Ireland and the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 06:15 AM

BTW
The right's dependence on Unionist support lies in the title of the ruling party "the Conservative and Unionist Party"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 05:41 AM

"here we go- racism again!"
Never gone away Al
You have just descriibed the role of the British as keeping the fighting Irish from killing each other
That is racist stereotyping which goes back as far as at least the 19th century - a favourite of 'Punch Magazine'
"what's all this about terrorist connections?"
The ruling party - the DUP, had traceable links to the terrorist UVF - and is actively supported by them
"the other side "
Which "other side" to you mean - please say the Southern Irish and make my "racist" point for me
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 05:35 AM

here we go- racism again!
its such a cop out way of taking on no criticism.

what's all this about terrorist connections? you keep trotting that one out.
like the other side are devoid of terrorist connections.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 05:19 AM

"Both Big Al and Keith A are perfectly correct in what they have said so far"
Both have made racist statements - Keith consistently so - no surprise that you support it
Nothing in your meaningless list makes them in any way correct
Brexit will Northern Ireland detrimentally - your meaningless list carefully skates around that one
It is this fact that has brought The North and Scotland to leaving the Union
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 04:37 AM

Please note that the current SNP Government in Scotland has gone extremely quiet about a second Independence referendum - there is a very good reason for that - they know the answer would be a resounding NO. They have not resolved, or formulated answers to any of the "difficult questions" they failed to answer in the run up to the last referendum and with Leave winning the Brexit Referendum it makes answering those questions even more difficult.

Scottish trade is distributed roughly as follows:

15% with the rest of the world (Would remain unaffected by Brexit)
65% with the rest of the UK, primarily England (Would remain unaffected by Brexit)
20% with other EU member states

So economically and socially the Union with the rest of the UK is a damned sight more important to Scotland than any "union" with Europe.

Time lines for a second Scottish Referendum and an Independent Scotland rejoining the EU:

29th March 2017 - Article 50 triggered
29th March 2019 - Brexit negotiations concluded
Summer 2019 - Second Independence Referendum called for and agreed (Last one involved two years of preparation and campaigning)
Summer 2021 - Second Independence Referendum which hypothetically results in a YES vote (The previous timetable for Scotland to divorce itself from the rest of the UK was two years)
Summer 2023 - Scotland becomes and Independent country - it will either have a currency over which it has no control, or it will have to have established it's own brand new currency.
Summer 2023 - Scotland applies for membership of the EU - The EU will look at Scotland to measure suitability and compliance and advise Scotland on what must be achieved before membership can be applied for and for that application to be considered by each member state. (In the case of the Baltic States this process took 15 years)
Summer 2038 - Scotland finds itself an independent country?? and a member of whatever size, shape and form the EU has evolved into by 2038 which could mean that Scotland isn't independent at all.

Both Big Al and Keith A are perfectly correct in what they have said so far. Oh and just as an aside my first trip to Northern Ireland WAS to protect the "nationalist" Catholic population against the Ulster "unionists" and to oversee and ensure the disbanding and disarming of the RUC's B-Specials.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 04:32 AM

"Can we drop the silly abuse please Jim?"
Can you stop this hatred of the Irish Keith and answer the points honestly?
"Jim, NI is a vast money pit into which our national wealth has been squandered."
Northern Ireland was created by Britain in order to appease a sectarian group who were natural allies to British Imperialism
The Six Counties that were annexed were the most lucrative parts of the Island - that's why they were granted as settlements way back in history
Britain continued to profit from those counties from the produce of the land and from the industries that were developed there - the industrial North was an investment, not a "money pit" (statements like that earn you the description "stupid little man" every time you make them
The idea of Britain as a benefactor pouring money into a State out of the goodness of its heart is as stupid at it gets.
Unionist Northern Ireland has always been a part of Britain's right wing political strategy - hence the present deal which has cost the British taxpayer £billion as a bung - a bribe to give a political party support - the fact that this deal has been done with a party with terrorist links is an indication of British ruthlessness.
The party that Britain left in charge has shown its true mettle throughout its reign - sectatian violence, inequality, religious bigotry.... all part of the British influence
Your bleating about giving the people what they want has never taken the inequality and oppression Unionist brought to a sizeble minority of the people whose "rights" you shed your crocodile tears over
You have supported the sectarian violence by minimising it (and on one sick occasion, blaming it on "schoolchildren")
You have either justified it or, as you are doing now, refused to discuss it.
The idea that any country can rule another or part of another is now a historical anathema - you refuse even to acknowledge that fact.
You have denied the historical violence and the appalling misrule that has twisted and deformed six counties, and now you present it as an act of charity "a money pit"
Your ignorance and hatred of the Irish is a shining example of many centuries of British rule - it is the one valuable contribution you make to these discussions
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 04:07 AM

"Partition was forced on Ireland at gunpoint - "sign in three days or go to war" - the result was a brutal year-long civil war - not a lot of "collusion" there."

Utter nonsense and a total misrepresentation. Anglo-Irish Treaty negotiations that resulted from a ceasefire called in the Anglo-Irish War - Of course if the agreement wasn't signed it would result IN THE RESUMPTION of hostilities - the "brutal year long CIVIL WAR you refer to had S.F.A. to do with the British Government it had everything to do with certain sections in the South of Ireland not agreeing with the deal that Good Ol' Dev sent Michael Collins to negotiate in London.

"The Unionists weer the first to introduce the gun into 20th century politics in Ireland, but the militants represented only a small minority"

The Unionists might have been the first to introduce (i.e. Import) the gun into 20th century politics in Ireland Jom - but the "Nationalists" who "imported" their own just a few months later were the first to use them - Nearly half a million Unionists signed their Covenant voluntarily whereas the Irish Volunteers numbered roughly 180,000. The vast majority of both volunteered to fight in the First World War against the Germans.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 04:00 AM

Rag,
You refer to Unionist's as just that, Unionists, you refer to "Nationalist's" as "Nationalists"

I put them in quotes because they are Nationalists who want the Union.
I would do the same if discussing Unionists who wanted out of the Union.

Jim,
Stupid little man

Can we drop the silly abuse please Jim?

We do not want any part of Ireland."
Whoops - another referendum I missed !!!

Jim, NI is a vast money pit into which our national wealth has been squandered. I have never met anyone here who would not like to be rid of it. Have you? The British government never wanted it in the first place. They wanted the army to get rid of them, but they refused.

Allan, whatever your "Social Survey" says, we are still a long way from a majority against the Union in the North.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 23 Aug 17 - 01:48 AM

The official SNP policy is for the monarchy to remain unchanged though if independence came about I suspect it wouldn't take too long for that issue to be at least looked at to see if there was enough support for a republic in Scotland at large. There probably isn't at the moment. I don't think they'd be likely to dump the monarchy within this monarch's lifetime though. If they did it would be for a republic though rather than them choosing a new monarch.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 07:24 PM

We do not want any part of Ireland."
Whoops - another referendum I missed !!!
How long have you been speaking for the British people Keith?
Stupid little man
"But, we believe in people's rights to self determination. "
Then why do you keep denyting what those rights are when you have been given the present situation?
"Allan, they may not vote Unionist but they still want to stay in the Union, as do many "nationalists.""
There oyu go again ignoring the figures
"Read the results of the surveys in my link, "
The result of those surveys have been pointed out to you - two thirds of the Republic want a United Ireland and its quite likely the North will equal that as Brexit shows what a complete shambles it has turned out to be
Why do you thin the Government has turned to a party with terrorist links for support - they no longer have an overall majority
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 07:14 PM

another parliament with a knife edge majority. i think if i wanted out i would chance my arm. start campaigning now!

i think it would be really exciting if the two countries departed. would Scotland reinstate a Stuart monarch? That would be something!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 07:01 PM

"If the Scots and Irish want no part of Brexit - they know where the door is."

The SNP were pressed and pressed as to under what circumstances they would hold another referendum! Eventually they stated when that would be considered and it was included in their manifesto for the Scottish Parliament elections. When there was a major shift in public opinion towards Yes (which is I am sure is what they'd prefer) or if there was a major change and the example stated in the manifesto was if Scotland was to be taken out of the EU against the wishes of the Scottish people. The SNP won the said election and the leader of the Scottish Conservatives openly stated that it would be undemocratic for a British PM to block a second vote. The Scottish Parliament then voted to give the Scottish gvt the mandate to hold a second vote if they chose to and the motion was passed. However the British PM has blocked that for the time being. It will still likely come to a head at some point, but Al it is fine knowing where the door is - but if constitutionally you need the permission to open it from another parliament where you make up only 8% of the seats yourself then it is not quite so easy as you suggest.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 06:48 PM

Yes Keith but my point was that although many people may currently want the status quo in Northern Ireland it does not mean that they are necessarily very strong unionists or that they would not accept the outcome of a vote! If we are to believe that social survey then 83% of the people in Northern Ireland do not see themselves as very strong unionists and 71% do not see class themselves as unionist at all. Hence there is a softer underbelly of people supporting the status quo and no doubt a great many would at least theoretically be open to persuasion. Isn't that what democracy is all about?

Hence of course people can campaign for that so I don't get "the people have spoken enough times on this" thing. Democracy doesn't end at one specific time. It is ongoing so people can speak about issues as much as they want. There can be major changes in opinion over relatively short periods of time. For instance at the start of the Scottish referendum no-one gave the Yes side a hope in hell and they were lagging well behind in the polls. Around the time of the signing of the Edinburgh Agreement in 2012 they were only at around 30% and some had them in the 20s but by Sept 2014 they were hotting 49% in one poll and ended at 45%. So a massive swing to yes during the campaign itself. So with all that is happening there is every possibility that the support for a united Ireland could mushroom during a run up to a referendum. Especially as there is such a high proportion of people who don't class themselves specifically as either unionists or nationalists then both sides have potential voters in big numbers.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 06:16 PM

well my Irish roots go back to the 1930's and my family was involved on the fenian side.

however thankfully my grandparents had the wisdom not make that bloody nonsense the story of our lives. they didn't need a history book to see no possible good could come from inculcating hatred in young people.

if you want to go on with these two legs good, four legs bad mantras. that's your choice, but i really don't think you have the right to stand in judgement of those of us who choose to distance ourselves from this long running horror story.

If the Scots and Irish want no part of Brexit - they know where the door is. All the Irish have to do is agree with each other long enough to go through the door. some chance of that!

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 04:04 PM

There is something VERY telling in your last post professor.

You refer to Unionist's as just that, Unionists, you refer to "Nationalist's" as "Nationalists"

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 03:53 PM

Jim,
What the **** are you7 trying to prove Keith - that Britain should still retain the right of Empire over its former colonies?

Absolutely not. We do not want any part of Ireland.
But, we believe in people's rights to self determination. We need just a 1% majority from the people involved.
I doubt either of us will see that, sadly.

Allan, they may not vote Unionist but they still want to stay in the Union, as do many "nationalists."

Read the results of the surveys in my link, or the whole of Jim's article.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 01:16 PM

"I take it only a fraction of those would favour an actual uprising should there be a democratic vote to unite Ireland."
That's always been the case Allan
The Unionists weer the first to introduce the gun into 20th century politics in Ireland, but the militants represented only a small minority - and armed minority, mind you
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:40 PM

This was from the 2016 social attitudes study in Northern ireland which seems to suggest that 'unionists' are well short of being a majority of the population. When asked if they were unionist or nationalist etc only 29% defined themselves as unionists; and only 24% described themselves as nationalists. A greater number didn't describe themselves in those terms. Being a majority does not mean there are more than unionists than there are nationalists - it means the majority of the people are unionist. That doesn't seem to be the case. So it may show nationalists have a long way to go but it also suggests that a great many may be more open to persuasion than some suggest. In the same survey only 17% described themselves as "very strong" unionists. I take it only a fraction of those would favour an actual uprising should there be a democratic vote to unite Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:37 PM

Did I really write IVF? - there's a Freudian slip, if you like
I meant UVF of course
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:35 PM

"just want you stop to giving yourselves excuses for acting badly."
So wanting independence is "acting badly2
No need to ask which side you are in Al
You sound like a Keith Jingoist
Don't think I've ever read anything so partonising in my life
"he troops weren't there until things kicked off, and no one wanted to be there."
The troops should have been there to protect the catholic Britishers from the Unionist thugs - don't be proud of the fact that they only came in when things "kicked off"
When thet got ther, they culluded with terrorist like the IVF, they wreaked ther own particular havoc, and they did their share of killing and maiming non-combatant.
Back home, the authorities were fitting up innocent Irish people and leaving them to rot in prison - had hanging still been in place there would have been dozens of dead martyrs for the Irish to hold up as examples of British justic
About "yourselves" - I'm a Brit, I was born in Britain, as were my parents
I am in the postion of having to consider dual citizenship thanks to Brexit - bu I don't know if I'm entitled to is because my Irish roots are as far removed as they are.
You are as big a little Englander as your mate Keith
Go get someone to read you a history book Al - you obviously haven' the ability or the inclination to do it off your own bat
The religious divisions came about because the British gave power to sectarian thugs - spend time in the North and you'll find that the ordinary people get on very well with each other
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:21 PM

You fellers have always made the excuse that we can't give the six counties back because the majority don't want to leave the UK
Now the majority look like opting for a United Ireland, you seem to be doing a backward two-step
Funny that!!
You seem so concerned about what the people think - then how about this
The people of the North voted to remain in Europe (as did the Scots)
It seems that Brexit is going to hit these two places the hardest, and in Northern Ireland, destabalise the Peace Process into the bargain
Why not tell them, "Look lads and lasses - we want to leave Europe; you don't; so how about if we leave it like that - you stay, we'll go?"
Wouldn't that be the "democratic" thing to do?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: G.B. and N.I.?
From: Allan Conn
Date: 22 Aug 17 - 12:09 PM

Big Al there may be a point about the movement of goods but this back door for people getting into Britain idea doesn't really make sense. Why would say a Polish person fly to Dublin, then get a train to Northern Ireland, then either sail or fly to mainland Britain - when they can just fly straight to Britain or come through the Tunnel. Anyone from Europe can come on holiday anyway! Why would they need to come in via Ireland first. We surely aren't going to stop people visiting us? The issue is who is going to be able to work and claim benefits etc - not how they enter!