BS: Sentencing children to die in prison

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 05:18 AM

There has been a significant change in correctional philosophy in the U.S. over the last few years. Many state legislatures recognized that they were spending a whole heck of a lot of money on incarceration, and it didn't seem to be doing any good.

In the Reagan Era of the 1980s, the trend was away from rehabilitation and toward ever-increasing harshness in treating criminals. Nancy Reagan's "War on Drugs" led a trend toward excessive punishment for drug addicts, and then came "Three Strikes" laws that put a person in prison for life for three felonies.

Now the pendulum has swung back toward job training, addiction treatment, and behavior modification programs intended to reduce recidivism. Lots of people are angry about the radical changes in corrections that the California State Legislature has enacted, but those changes seem to be helping.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 05:32 AM

"Crime is something to be prevented."
My point exactly
You prevent the main reason for crime by removing poverty - not going to happen in our lifetimes
The threat of being caught has about the same effect as Capital punishment - in fact the opposite - those who need to steal become better at it
Becoming efficient at catching criminals increase the need for more prisons
Society needs to examine alternatives to prison - is locking up criminals together where they can teach each other their various skills really the best way to handle it?
Harden discipline and you create resentment
Bit of Catch 22 really
The "three strikes" rule is probably the most barbaric pices of legislation ever dreamed up - life for picking pockets - come-on!
I have little doubt that, in a hundred years time people will regard todays practices as they do the stock and branding
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 06:33 AM

From: Jim Carroll - PM
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 05:32 AM

"Crime is something to be prevented."
My point exactly
You prevent the main reason for crime by removing poverty - not going to happen in our lifetimes

No, your point exactly was that crime could be 'cured'.
'Prevention' was my point.

As to the idea that "you can prevent the main reason for crime by removing poverty". Do you seriously believe that only the poor can be criminals?

Possibly only the poor turn to 'petty' theft. But there are enough who grow rich on crime and its proceeds that your argument is worthless.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

"Do you seriously believe that only the poor can be criminals?"
Of course I don't but I believe it is the poor that fill the jaild - in America predominantly the black ones
We tend not to jail crooked bankers or politicians or businessmen, or major tax evaders
As for the lesser crimes of the rich - an expensive lawyer usually sorts that one out.
Those who grow rich - on crime or anything else, buy themselves above the law
Our jails are places where we send the poor to be chastened
You've had my arguments Nigel - address them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:04 AM

Of course I don't but I believe it is the poor that fill the jaild - in America predominantly the black ones
We tend not to jail crooked bankers or politicians or businessmen, or major tax evaders
As for the lesser crimes of the rich - an expensive lawyer usually sorts that one out.
Those who grow rich - on crime or anything else, buy themselves above the law
Our jails are places where we send the poor to be chastened
You've had my arguments Nigel - address them

I've seen your arguments, but I can't address them as they come from such an ill-conceived world view that I see little if any points of congruency with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:16 AM

Fine by me
If you are not prepared to put up your alternative facts we have no grounds of conversion
" ill-conceived world view"
Unqualified dismissal of arguments such as this is usually the response
I suggest you look at the reality of how the world is not sharply divided into haves and have-nots and then count reality of the number of haves occupying prison cells - that should do the trick
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:17 AM

CORPORATE CRIME
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 08:48 AM

Fine by me
If you are not prepared to put up your alternative facts we have no grounds of conversion
" ill-conceived world view"
Unqualified dismissal of arguments such as this is usually the response
I suggest you look at the reality of how the world is not sharply divided into haves and have-nots and then count reality of the number of haves occupying prison cells - that should do the trick

I'll try that again, a line at a time:
If you are not prepared to put up your alternative facts we have no grounds of conversion
I'm guessing you mean 'conversation' not 'conversion'. But with your normal posts it is difficult to tell. I do not put up alternative facts because:
a. Some people would equate the term "alternative facts" with "fake news".
b. I can't give alternative facts to the post I responded to as it contained no facts, merely broad-brush strokes of your view of how the world is.
Unqualified dismissal of arguments such as this is usually the response
Again, no argument was put forward to be dismissed.
I suggest you look at the reality of how the world is not sharply divided into haves and have-nots and then count reality of the number of haves occupying prison cells
If there is, as you claim, no sharp delineation between haves and have-nots, why do you then try to use that delineation in your comments?

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 09:09 AM

"We tend not to jail crooked bankers"
See Here

"Two former HBOS bankers are among six people who have today been jailed for almost 50 years between them for a scheme which ran businesses into the ground for their own personal gain, generating losses of around £250m for the now collapsed bank.

Lynden Scourfield, 54, once head of the HBOS department responsible for businesses in financial difficulty, has been sentenced at Southwark Crown Court to 11 years and three months in jail. He pleaded guilty in August 2016.

Meanwhile, David Mills, 60, has been jailed for 15 years, having been found guilty earlier this week after a five-month trial."

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 09:22 AM

For details of another 3 UK bankers jailed see The Guardian

It does go on to comment:
("Why don't bankers go to jail?")
Kenneth Peasnell, distinguished professor of accounting at Lancaster University management school, suggests that this question "is driven by a sense of unfairness, there being one rule for the rich and powerful and another for the rest of us … The wealthy seem to get a slap on the wrist for not paying their taxes while the single mother gets locked up for cheating on benefits".

Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 09:28 AM

"See Here"
Two bankers - that's going to create chaos in our overcrowded prisons
Any chance of a list of those who bought themselves out of trouble, or those never followed up
Another three
That should sort out all the problems of unemployment in the bulding trade
C'mon Nigel, you can to better than that
How about a few politicians who were fiddling taxpayers money to build duck palaces?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 09:38 AM

I was responding to your comment "We tend not to jail crooked bankers".
Five examples should be sufficient for that.

As for those (bankers) that "bought themselves out of trouble". Any facts on that?

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 09:45 AM

Jailed Politicians Including some who were jailed for fiddling their expenses.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 10:06 AM

You have just been given a list of the extent of the problem Nigel - dredging the web for off examples is hardly taking that seriously
"Five examples should be sufficient for that.
"After the banking scandal that sent the world economy crashing around our ears - are you serious?
"Any facts on that?"
Dredge though those who have employed expensive lawyers to talk their clients that the poorer among us couldn't dream of affording
That should do the trick

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 10:10 AM

Then you might try al the Masons who gave their funny handshake to policemen and judiciary fellow trouser-roller-uppers and drowned their misdemeanours in a glass of whiskey and soda in the lodge bar

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

You have just been given a list of the extent of the problem Nigel - dredging the web for off examples is hardly taking that seriously,
I provided a list of MP imprisoned for fiddling their expenses. Wasn't that what you wanted?

Perhaps you need to write with greater clarity, and without using such a scattershot approach if you wish to get specific answers to specific questions.

As it is I feel I have given more than you requested, and more than your approach deserves.

I will not be 'guilt-tripped' into further responses on this.

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 10:26 AM

THere's one phrase that unashamedly sums up our justice system perfectly Nigel "the best lawyer money can buy"
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Sentencing children to die in prison
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 26 Sep 17 - 12:05 PM

Sam Larner had a lovely little rhyme which applies to every aspect of out society

If life was a thing that money could buy
The rich would live and the poor would die

Can't say fairer than that
Jim Carrol