BS: Nixon How bad or how good

Subject: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 03:38 PM

in hindsight how does he rate. quote from wik
Nixon ended American involvement in the war in Vietnam in 1973 and brought the American POWs home, and ended the military draft. Nixon's visit to China in 1972 eventually led to diplomatic relations between the two nations, and he initiated détente and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with the Soviet Union the same year. His administration generally transferred power from Washington D.C. to the states. He imposed wage and price controls for ninety days, enforced desegregation of Southern schools and established the Environmental Protection Agency. Nixon also presided over the Apollo 11 moon landing, which signaled the end of the moon race. He was reelected in one of the largest electoral landslides in U.S. history in 1972 when he defeated George McGovern.

In his second term, Nixon ordered an airlift to resupply Israeli losses in the Yom Kippur War, resulting in the restart of the Middle East peace process and an oil crisis at home. The Nixon administration supported a coup in Chile that ousted the government of Salvador Allende and propelled Augusto Pinochet to power.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 04:40 PM

His Checkers speech September 23, 1952, was before my time but my father remembered it and said it made him want to vomit.

He was the only man my mother would admit to disliking, and it's hard to imagine how far he could go in politics. But he went all the way and what a ride it was.

But he did things no one else could do, such as playing the China card. Oddly enough I learned about his plans to go to China when I was visiting the Soviet Union and I learned it from a Russian in the Russian language. The American kids with me would not believe me!

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 06:27 PM

Nixon was a crooked piece of shit beginning with his stint helping McCarthy and HUAC right up on thru murdering Allende (the OTHER "September 11th.")

He only looks good compared to the current colossal piece of shit occypying the White House.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 07:59 PM

My side of the field is health care so I condemn Nixon for starting the HMO health industry. I praise him beginning the WIC program and at least proposing comprehensive national health care but failing to do so.

Ambitious crude cruel and ethno racist he was self punishing paranoid figure whose ego was toxic. He was once happy for about 45 seconds.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 08:03 PM

Absolutely spot on, Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Dec 17 - 09:15 PM

WIC?? Sorry, Don - but all Nixon did was not veto it, viz:

" The legislation (P.L. 92-433, sponsored by Senator Hubert Humphrey (D) of Minnesota) established the Special Supplemental Food Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC) as a two-year pilot program. "

Also, best re-read Nixon's 1974 health care proposal- it was hardly Universal Health Care.

Tricky Dick was still just a crooked piece of shit.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 12:50 AM

how does he compare to other presidents some of whom were also crooked shits.
Nixon ended American involvement in the war in Vietnam in 1973 and brought the American POWs home, and ended the military draft. Nixon's visit to China in 1972 eventually led to diplomatic relations between the two nations, and he initiated détente and the Anti-Ballistic Missile Treaty with the Soviet Union the same year.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 01:54 AM

"How does he compare to other presidents some of whom were also crooked shits?"

You mean aside from that part where he tried to overthrow the constitution? ;-)

Here's my take, although I could never be objective about him: (For over 20 years he personified evil to my family, from his red-baiting 1948 congressional campaign, through his McCarthy years, his "secret" bombing of Cambodia, and Watergate, with stops along the way.)

Even American presidents are constrained by context (although Nixon did his best to change his by wooing southern whites away from the Roosevelt coalition). For example, ending the draft was a simple common sense move that any opportunist should have taken. Like Clinton's failure to veto its repeal, Nixon's not vetoing the WIC isn't nothing. Later crooked pieces of shit would have vetoed it in a heartbeat.

As a statist, a centrist, and a practitioner of realpolitik, Nixon became anathema to the right wing of his party, and he sawed them off without a qualm. As a Republican he could do things--like detente, accepting defeat in a war which he "inherited," and going to China--that Humphrey could never have gotten away with. And as a consummate politician, he realised that his greatest threat came from within his own party, so he became a president whom conservative and "moderate" Democrats could live with.

With "leaders," it's always hard to tell where context ends and personal influence begins. With an utterly unprincipled pol like Nixon, it's especially hard. He was done in by his own paranoia, rather than by any political opposition, but not before he helped set the table for the CPOS's to come.

But that's just my personal view. My only authority for it is that I lived through his time, and that no doubt colors it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Mr Red
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 06:01 AM

Nixon was a Quaker.
Hitler was vegetarian.
Trump is, er um.............

Help me out someone?

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 07:23 AM

Cracker

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jack Campin
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 08:04 AM

Nixon ordered an airlift to resupply Israeli losses in the Yom Kippur War

I'd forgotten about his support for Zionist thuggery.

The one thing you can say for him was that Robert Kennedy would have been even worse if Sirhan hadn't done the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 08:47 AM

So, Jack, you condone murder?

The only good thing I can say about Nixon is that he served in WWII. Yes, being stationed at Naval Air Station Ottumwa (Iowa) wasn't exactly in the line of fire, but he also volunteered for the South Pacific and served there. And he was a Quaker (obviously not a devoted one).

Unlike people with bone spurs, or several others I could name.

His "secret plan" to get the US out of Vietnam was to leave, which is what people were saying we should do for years.

His China policy was simply recognizing reality. Chiang Ka-Shek had been the ally of the US because he wasn't communist, even though literally thousands of his (US-supplied) troops deserted to Mao.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 09:50 AM

Nixon ended American involvement in the war in Vietnam in 1973....

Hardly. The anti-war movement in the country and in Congress "ended American involvement in the war in Vietnam in 1973 and brought the American POWs home, and ended the military draft."

And Nixon may have been BORN one, but he was no fucking Quaker!

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 09:54 AM

Unlike most British Quakers, Nixon was not a Gurneyite Quaker. There are a number of Quaker flavors, not all of them pacifist. As I understand it, the sine qua non of Quakerism is following the inner light, not any particular doctrine.

Nevertheless, when questioned about his war service, Nixon claimed to consider himself a pacifist due to his "Quaker heritage."

Here is an interesting account of Nixon's Whittier Quaker meeting and the role that "heritage" played in Nixon's self-presentation:

https://www.friendsjournal.org/richard-nixons-first-cover-up-2/

At any rate, his service as a de facto non-combatant in WWII pales as an impeachment of his Quakerism beside his carpet bombing of Southeast Asia.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 04:14 PM

Nixon was complex, anti-charismatic, and extremely intelligent. His election in 1968 was looked upon askance by Democrats who had harbored great admiration for Hubert H. Humphrey in all aspects of social American politics with the major exception of Vietnam. He had been loyal to his President throughout the Vietnam War and suffered as a consequence. His sobriquet was: The Happy Warrior.
The other event at the time that influenced Richard Nixon's first campaign was the comparison between the well-ordered Republican convention and the disastrous Democratic convention amid violent confrontations between the Chicago cops and anti-war protestors.

Jack:
Thanks for interjecting that bit about Robert Kennedy. During the 1968 campaign he was in a televized debate and my mother wanted it recorded, which at the time was done by me stringing a tape recorder microphone to hang near the television speaker. I clearly recall Robert Kennedy's spirited pro-Israeli stance during that debate which I believe you rightly recall was the motivation for his assassination by Sirhan Sirhan not long after that debate. He died a hero in my books, for his stand on Israel. Sirhan Sirhan has been in prison ever since; may he end his life there.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 04:54 PM

Nixon WAS very intelligent, but he always seemed to me to have something missing. Often a very iintelligent person will be a functional idiot because of a rigid commitment to some belief system, but Nixon wasn't an ideologue.

There was something askew in his relationships with other people. He seemed to have a tin ear, as evidenced by his "Checkers" speech. And when it counted, he was a terrible judge of character. His vice presidential pick, Agnew, his closest advisors, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, and Colson, and his attorney general, Mitchell, all did time. Haldeman and Ehrlichman thought it would be a good idea to hire the proven wack-a-doos G Gordon Liddy and E Howard Hunt, respectively. And for what? To subvert the campaign of George McGovern, who would have lost to Ronald McDonald in a fair election.

Nixon was re-elected with, I think, the greatest majority of electoral votes in history, and he managed to kick it all away, his presidency and his legacy, all by himself. There was something in him that subverted all that intelligence and turned him into a sinister doofus.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:04 PM

martin luther king senior, described him as charismatic and someone who appeared to be extremely sincere and if he was not sincere was one of the most dangerous men in the usa

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Greg F.
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:09 PM

Nixon still IS one of the most dangerous men in the USA - as judged by the number of people who yet admire & defend him.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:11 PM

Charismatic? Wow! Otherwise, it looks like MLK Sr nailed it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 05:42 PM

I mean, it was natural for King Sr to praise Nixon: He was vice-president when Eisenhower sent troops into Arkansas to enforce school integration. King was a Republican until he endorsed Kennedy. And I learned that he and Nixon worked together getting the 1957 Civil Rights Act passed. But Nixon struck me as the least charismatic public figure of his time. A complex person indeed.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 08:29 PM

He will ever be half villainy with a complexity
that was half insanely ambitious.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: robomatic
Date: 20 Dec 17 - 08:33 PM

I'm pretty sure I have my memory straight, shortly after Nixon's re-election (but maybe it was his resignation) the campus cinema had a double feature: Nixon's Checkers speech followed by 'Dr. Strangelove.' And in that time period, multiple showings of Costa Gavras' 'Z'.

Charismatic? Many Nixon Loyalists were willing to commit crimes for him, so he inspired something in them. Of the many books that came out of the Post-Watergate period I only read one, but it was memorable: G. Gordon Liddy's 'Will'.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 02:42 AM

"Charismatic? Many Nixon Loyalists were willing to commit crimes for him, so he inspired something in them. Of the many books that came out of the Post-Watergate period I only read one, but it was memorable: G. Gordon Liddy's 'Will'."

I aologize for banging on the same drum, but, really, did that gang of thugs need inspiration? Hunt and Liddy were doing black bag jobs before they even met Nixon. Agnew committed his crimes for Agnew.

I think Nixon was drawn to sleaze and vice versa. His best friend and soulmate was Bebe Rebozo, who was never indicted for anything, but came close a couple of times.

Another memorable read is The White House Tapes, in which you can observe Nixon, Haldeman, Ehrlichman, Dean et al sitting around inspiring one another. "You can always say you can't remember." Most of them were loyal, true, but I'm guessing it was because Nixon reached into their darkness and validated it for them, not because he was charming. As I recall, it was striking how dreary and banal all that eager plotting and scheming was.

I don't claim to be neutral, of course, so there may be something there I just can't see. I confess he is ultimately beyond my ken.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 04:46 AM

nevertheless though i do not admire him ,i find him strangely fascinating ,very intelligent, king described both kennedy and nixon as political opportunists, and at the time thought there was little to choose between them, i think he was a marginlly better debater than kennedy, but was he any more of a crook thatn some of the other presidents.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 06:14 AM

I'd go along with that assessment, Sandman. Perhaps, like the songs of our youth, the villains of our youth are the most memorable.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 10:25 AM

there was little to choose between [Nixon & Kennedy]

Nonsense.

was he any more of a crook thatn some of the other presidents.

Absolutely.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 11:00 AM

"was he any more of a crook thatn some of the other presidents."

Sorry, I misread that as "he was." Oh, for sure he was.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 12:01 PM

Jackaroodave. You have cited many acts of a President who defiled his office with unconstitutional acts, crimes and misdemeanors. I agree however President Trump is destined to far supersede Nixon's amateur criminality in comparison.
Should a Trump Congress ever pass bias and disloyalty laws regarding the President you are so far safe from prosecution. Neutrality may not be a defense.
The possible incriminating question: Is Trump bad or good?
or
Who is worse and why?

":^/

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: Jackaroodave
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 12:37 PM

Oh, yes, I think Trump has a real good shot at breaking Nixon's record by a yuge margin. As far as I know he hasn't yet, but it's still early. I think his policies and his character are much worse than Nixon's, but as far as actual indictable criminality goes, I don't know. I'm happy to be enlightened.

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 01:04 PM

i reckon president fart will be impeached within 2 years, and i have my suspicions that LBJ was a criik
."there was little to choose between nixon and kennedy" not my words the words of martin luther king senior, in the biography of martin luther king.
greg you are welcome to think it is nonsense but those were the words of someone who had met them both, did you meet either of them?

Subject: RE: BS: Nixon How bad or how good
From: michaelr
Date: 21 Dec 17 - 03:28 PM

Nixon was also responsible for taking the US Dollar off the gold standard, thereby rendering the currency worth what the Fed says it's worth.