BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA

Subject: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:05 AM

What fucking idiots in the usaian congress, they still won't ban guns and still the massacres happen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:27 AM

Still, even they had the sense to get rid of the English Royal Family.

They can't be that daft.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:10 PM

Must be years since i mused here fhat all Americans might as well be armed to the teeth and left to shoot each other. Never dreamt they'd take me up on it. Bravo!

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Vashta Nerada
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:27 PM

It's depressing as Hell how vociferous the pro-gun lobbyists are after an event like this. The party line is that a good guy with a gun could solve that nasty old shooter problem - a scenario that rarely if ever is transacted. But they keep shouting.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:57 PM

I kinda think that at least in the United States, prohibitive laws don't work unless they are supported by a large majority. If a law of prohibition doesn't have 75% support, the 25% will raise such a ruckus that the law will fail.

I tell anti-abortion people this, and those who oppose gay marriage - and the same thing applies to gun control. If you don't have 75% support, better get to work changing hearts and minds.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 12:57 PM

There has to be a significant amount of de-stupidification here. One hopes that the assholes who favor the gun lobby over their constituents (and doing their fucking jobs) will be voted out when the wheel spins.
...or maybe it will take a psycho with a gun letting loose in Congress. Not a good thing, but these school mass murders mostly don't "hit them where they live", so they don't care.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:02 PM

Joe, I'm pretty sure there's a high enough percentage of people who support background checks and/or an assault weapons ban.

The failure to enact these things is, IMO, mostly the fault of the NRA and gun money... and suck-up, money-grubbing, insensitive, do-nothing Republican.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:06 PM

We're OK
Trump has just said "well make people's safety R TAP PRIORiTY
Sleep easy in your shrouds
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:18 PM

Is a "tap priority" something to do with dancing?

According to a Quinnapiac University poll, 95% of those polled want background checks. (It was on Twitter, so...)
Republicans, clue up or get out.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:31 PM

The trouble is, even if all guns were banned tomorrow, people would be extremely reluctant to hand theirs in. The USA appears to be awash with the things, and it would be almost impossible to search everybody's house, car, garage, sheds etc.
Drugs are officially banned, but both UK and USA have enormous drug problems, because the wretched stuff gets through and people continue
to deal/buy it. Same with guns.
The only solution to some pro-gun folk is for simply everyone to be armed and thus defend themselves. Gunfight at the OK corral...
I feel so very sad for the victims' families of this latest tragedy.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Ed.
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 01:54 PM

As someone in the UK, I find some of the US attitudes utterly baffling. Comments such as Marco Rubio's: "now isn't the time to talk about gun control", seem completely bizarre. It really, really is...

However, I accept that the historical and cultural norms on this issue are very different to those of Europeans.

One thing I don't understand at all though, and perhaps someone could enlighten me, why are the NRA seemingly so extremely powerful?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Joe Offer
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:05 PM

I agree, Jeri. Background checks and an assault weapons ban are a good first step. But Trump is packing the courts with conservative judges, and I don't think that bodes well for anti-gun laws.

I think that an assault weapons ban could do some good. Even though lots of people already have assault weapons, I get the feeling that the ones used by mass killers are often recently-purchased. I don't think we could pull off a gun ban like they did in Australia - too many Americans would refuse to give up their guns, and and some would get militant to protect their "rights." We live in a gun culture, and culture does not change easily.

I'm not sure what happened to CCW (carrying concealed weapons) permits. It used to be that a person had to have a good reason for getting such a permit - and that more-or-less prevented most people from carrying pistols on the street. Now it seems that anyone can get a CCW permit here in California, and I have the feeling the streets are full of armed vigilantes - although I rarely see evidence that someone is "packing."

And no, it does not make me feel safer to know that gun-toting, "law-abiding" citizens are all around me. I'v lived "out in the sticks" for 16 years now, and I hear gunshots on a regular basis. Occasionally when I'm hiking, it feels like the bullets are a little too close.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:07 PM

the thing is, its a bit like prohibition. people enjoy guns. they kill people - just like alcohol does.

re-introducing alcohol gave the economy a boost.

prohibiting guns will surely cause a slump - so many people make a living selling, marketing them, running shooting activities...

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:14 PM

Americans love normal. This is normal.

In 2018 we already have 18 school shootings.

The hearts of this Valentines day have gone out, the prayers have been delivered unanswered.

Hearts and prayers are everywhere you turn, lying dead,
with a last bleeding beat and downturned eyes, this too is normal.

do the math; the US has a shooting death rate of 3.7, the UK has .07.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:29 PM

All that has changed is the more efficient death rate from the improvements of the guns, clips, bump stocks and strategies found in our gun magazines at our grocery stores. I have a choice of 7-10 different gun magazines at Giant food store.

ooooooo don't touch my 2nd amdt. or you know what I'll do.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:41 PM

The problem is even worse, they are pushing a bill through Congress to allow full carry across state lines if you are registered in your state.. Problem is some states if you can breathe you get a carry license. Florida in particular.. Ny state is brutal with the checks on a citizen (which I approve) now some clown would negate our check system by getting one from a loose state.. It's all nuts actually

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:43 PM

Hey, Joe - ya need to keep up, buddy:

http://www.politifact.com/wisconsin/statements/2017/oct/03/chris-abele/do-90-americans-support-background-checks-all-gun-/

https://www.npr.org/2017/10/13/557433452/poll-majorities-of-both-parties-favor-increased-gun-restrictions

https://poll.qu.edu/national/release-detail?ReleaseID=2492

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/11/gun-control-vegas-polls-243647

http://thehill.com/homenews/360496-poll-majority-of-american-voters-favor-stricter-gun-laws

Maybe you should take it up with all those "good Republicans" in Congress you keep going on about.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:45 PM

Problem is some states if you can breathe you get a carry license.

Hell,Dan, in some states you can be in a mental institution or dead and get a carry license.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 02:46 PM

I wonder what the psychology of this young gunman might be? What makes a teenager decide to go out and murder many people in a school?
He'd been expelled, and his behaviour wasn't quite normal. His resentment must have been enormous. I understand the Dunblane killer also acted out of resentment at being refused Scout Leadership.

Mental health issues must surely be key here. And a feeling of rejection, 'not fitting in' and a realisation one is not accepted.
There should be more vigilance about care and counselling for these misfits, and spotting them early.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:02 PM

Here the best of all, ya can't get a gun because you are a nut case killer? Go online and get a ghost gun kit. 100 percent legal. You see its not a gun unless it works. The kit is non working with the ten minute instruction on how to make it work.. Takes drilling four or so holes but they have it all marked for you.. Now you have a fully functional non traceable, no serial number glock that works as well as the factory. No bg check of any kind and legal... Fucking nuts.. See why I scream fix the gun laws.. @#@#'##

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:04 PM

235 bucks for the kit... Only in America can you see such insanity

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:05 PM

Not everybody with mental health issues plans to kill a lot of people. I agree we should pay attention to people with problems, but fundamentally, they shouldn't be able to get guns.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:09 PM

I agree Jeri. It's not an 'excuse' but I'm trying to work out the 'reason'. Loner types with a grudge or an obsession with some deeply-held and bizarre belief obviously represent a grave danger to the rest.

Anyone with any red flags against them (criminal convictions, violence, mental health issues, instability, drug addiction etc ) should never be allowed to carry guns.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:11 PM

So we sell criminals do it yourself kits that require a simple drill... You can get them for a full functioning ar rifle also.. Not traceable no serial number, no bg check, sold like you wouldbuy a toy.. No state or ffederal laws except for carrying.. Great job Washington

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:17 PM

Two nights ago CBS News ran a story on 'ghost guns' unregistered gun kits that can be purchased over the net and assembled at home. No records, no serial numbers. Legal.

This problem is not going away soon.

I'm reminded of two societies that restricted guns many years ago. The Japanese were introduced to firearms in the 16th centry. Book: "Giving up the gun" Japan's Reversion to the Sword . A pivotal battle was fought with firearms and the issue became one of class. With a gun, an untrained peasant could down a highly skilled samurai. This could not be allowed to continue. So a top-down containment was mandated. Not till the, you guessed it, Americans came in the 19th century were firearams reintroduced to Nippon. Interesting side night, some of the 16th century weapons could be converted to 'modern' 19th century ignition systems and were found to be of excellent construction.

The other case I have heard or read about years ago, no research nor references, but when the British incorporated New Zealand into the Empire in the 1840s, the Polynesian natives, the Maoris, obtained firearms, and being of a warrior culture, started using them in their tribal conflicts. Apparently the increased death rate was shocking enough that they held meetings and decided to adopt their own version of arms control.

Why we Americans can't sanely talk about this does not do us credit. Is it because there have not been enough victims? Or there haven't been noteworthy enough victims? Or we believe the Wayne LaPierre contention that it takes "good guys with guns" to defeat the "bad guys with guns" with no reflection that the presence of the guns themselves turns some good guys bad?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:45 PM

Money talks. Gun money talks loud.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:54 PM

Malcolm Gladwell three years ago, interesting article:

How School Shootings Catch On

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:26 PM

The enemy of live children will dither away on mental health improvements and the cause of gun violence. All the while running out the clock on public memory.

Viet Nam was portrayed every night. It takes replaying school shooting unedited iPhone videos every night. I'm sorry that this is what it takes humans to accomplish psychological change.

my
Public service video
Gun manufactures counting their profits...quick change to actual school shooting footage. ect.

...every night for a minimum 100 days. People with my focused education would agree with me, no matter how daft this seems to the Joes out there.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 04:35 PM

This time this shooting could be a tipping point only if it receives lots help to really change the public memory attention span.

This is my attempt at a solution. There will need to be many more solutions once we actually begin the conversation.

Laws do not change minds . Mental memory conditioning does.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:06 PM

And in the meantime, the 'thoughts and prayers' of other gun-nuts and the POTUS will fix everything... ??

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 05:50 PM

https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1823016659

We can do this or we can do better

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 07:00 PM

Well.....

I'm as sad and angry about yesterday's Florida school shooting as anyone else, and I heard quite a bit of last night's coverage. One particular thing stuck in my craw that I have to write about.... One expert commentator was describing the community that has formed, consisting of families, friends, and communities of people who were murdered in mass shootings-- how each new incident is extraordinarily painful, and how the lack of healing is internalized and generationalized. Oh REALLY.

I'm sure that's true because of the generationalized experience of AFRICAN AMERICANS-- duh, white expert!!!!

#ManyThousandsGone

[Several ranting paragraphs deleted]

-----> The next time some brainwashed white person brings up black on black crime, in a deflection about police violence or profiling or 'stand your ground'-- I'm going to redirect via the white on white crime of school shootings they can be so empathetic about... and then redirect that empathy for the families, friends, and communities of the folks I remember at each anniversary of their unjust and unpunished deaths.

How DARE that repetitive injury to Black hearts and psyches go unchanged!!!

So I leave the gun debate in the able hands of the gun control lobby. I'm with you. But my energy remains with eliminating white racism!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:32 PM

Interesting connection to the flu epidemic: Apparently the Florida perp's mother died of Flu in November (2017). So the 'alleged' school shooter was taken in by some neighbors.
Maybe we can tie Jenny McCarthy to the events, if Ms. Cruz did not get a flu shot.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:38 PM

The freedom to own guns in the US is just one symptom of the democratic deficit in the USA. It derives from the politically-unchallengeable power of the unelected gun lobby. There is also a politically-unchallengeable pro-Israel lobby and a politically-unchallengeable oil/big business lobby. We don't vote for lobbies but we do vote for politicians, so when the latter are cowed by the lobbies and briefed against by them to the point of becoming toast, democracy is in severe disrepute. It's healthy enough when lobby groups vigorously and responsibly challenge politicians, but when they become power-grabbers unto themselves, and actively manipulate and threaten our leaders into submission, there's something badly wrong. That's what has happened apropos of gun ownership in the US. I heard a reporter say that Florida has some of the most liberal gun laws in America. Next minute I heard a Florida politician declaring that Florida will not tolerate this kind of violence. Yeah, right.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:40 PM

US, USA, America, US of A. Sorry about the inconsistency.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:44 PM

Steve there is a lot of truth in your statement my friend

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: olddude
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:50 PM

And with corporations being able to donate so
Much money it is appalling.. Us sportsmen shake our heads they pass gun laws that do nothing yet pat themselves on the back and say look we addressed it.. No law abiding gun owner sportsman wants do it yourself ghost gun kits or carry permits issued to anyone.. Or an unstable 19 year old who was kicked out of school to leagally by an assault rifle ugh

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 08:52 PM

Susan I have come to expect fiction whenever the words 'black culture' comes out of a white mouth. Popular fiction perhaps, but still reconstructed third person fiction based on hearsay and assumptions.

The same goes for the words white culture from a black mouth.

Or even books like Nuances of the Dolphin Language. by Jim Dixon.

If extraterrestrials ever wrote a book about Humans I bet we would all have a laugh.   Except (How to Serve Man)

Just being arrogantly wrong, is racism of sorts but it does not always rise to the level of a deliberate hate.

ps you make me think

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:00 PM

One day the work of a professional lobbyist may be a felony criminal bribery conspirator. But today they are still legal.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:28 PM

I don't think for one second that lobby groups should be illegal. They should be part of that rich tapestry of democracy, inspiring debate, challenging politicians openly and honestly, making the case for the cause but not leaning on our leaders. That becomes a dangerous subversion of democracy, to be guarded against. It thwarts good, progressive policy-making via the illicit grabbing of power. Standing outside embassies with placards is one thing. Briefing against politicians, as the NRA did against Hillary Clinton, should be indigestible for the American people.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:29 PM

Old Dude, I'll tell you how bad it is.

Today in Congress the moment of silence for the dead Florida students WAS CANCELED because they were too busy abolishing the ADA American Disabilities Act - that allow rights to the disabled.

A stand alone law by Senator Grassley to allow sales of all guns to the mentally unstable was signed by Trump. It also makes it illegal for the FBI to track guns sold to the insane.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 09:52 PM

Steve, Organized Government Crime , as you quaintly put it, indeed has a RICH historical tapestry. Reserve legal bribes to your Parliament Politicians and leave our Congress out of it.

It is a self evident truth that bribery and extortion are wrong in a democratic republic.

You are just jaded and accustomed to crime. "Not for a second" indeed.

To belabor my point, Zeus has a rich tapestry regarding rape, and does not see anything wrong with it.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: frogprince
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 10:24 PM

Donuel, you're misrepresenting, or misreading, Steve.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 11:37 PM

Steve:

I share some of your frustration regarding the power of lobbies, but the reality is not so much that they are a cabal as that they can guarantee votes and money. I know some of those votes,I've worked with many of them. But the lobbies you mention can be beaten. Obama's administration led an agreement with Iran, flouting the Israel lobby. Limiting offshore drilling may have been a successful challenge to the oil lobby (then again it may not have). Some lobbies lose their relevancy. The gun lobby/ NRA is the product of successful promoting (Wayne LaPierre and his use of powerful words such as "jack-booted thugs" "good guy with a gun"). And a truly American obsession with firearms has been subverted by it. It can be changed, but not overnight.

Don'l, I have no idea of what you mean by meaning or not meaning out of black or white lips. I think it's nonsense of the non-sequitar kind that you do so well. I had a friend who liked to send postcards that read like an alien learning English from a Swahili jokebook. Many of your posts are almost word-for-word like my friend's.

Two-guns Robo

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Hrothgar
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:24 AM

Has anybody yet said, "Now, if all the kids in that school had assault rifles, they could have defended themselves."

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 03:56 AM

All done by a 19 year old who apparently used a legally-held rifle.

This in a country where he can't legally buy himself a beer until he's 21. Priorities anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 04:17 AM

"Mental health"
Trump has now used this as a cop-out, saying that they will tackle mental health rather than weapons control
Utterly insane.
Earlier this week I watched an incredibly moving programme about a Jewish Holocaust survivor from Croatia speaking about the mass-murder that was on the rise in Europe "after what happened to us Jews"
This has nothing to do with "mental health" - it is about a shift in society towards an attitude that you can solve your differences with weapons - from governments to individuals
America has the added problem that the sale of personal weapons is big business, just as the West has created a massive industry in the trade of arms - death is now built into our economies as a viable asset to be profited from
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:05 AM

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Senoufou - PM
Date: 15 Feb 18 - 03:09 PM

I agree Jeri. It's not an 'excuse' but I'm trying to work out the 'reason'. Loner types with a grudge or an obsession with some deeply-held and bizarre belief obviously represent a grave danger to the rest.

Anyone with any red flags against them (criminal convictions, violence, mental health issues, instability, drug addiction etc ) should never be allowed to carry guns.

That isn't enough. You need laws that make purchasers prove they will never have a red flag against them ever in their lives, and prove that they will never have children that will have a red flag. You need legislation forcing people in possession of a firearm to report to a police station every day to prove they are still in possession. You need to ensure that gun owners never leave their homes in case they are burgled.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:35 AM

So if Trump is blaming mental health does that mean that America would find a T-4 programme more palatable than gun control? If you don't know whatT-4 was - look in the history books.

Subject: RE: BS: They still do nothing about guns in USA
From: Ed.
Date: 16 Feb 18 - 05:52 AM

Wow, SPB-Cooperator! You do spout a lot of crap.

Go back to blaming Microsoft and Google for your lack of ability to utilise current technology effectively. You're less dangerous there...