BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread

Subject: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: robomatic
Date: 01 Jul 18 - 08:50 PM

Going on right now as I'm typing this:

Algeria - Walk or Die

Please restrict your comments to actual points about actual refugees, people being displaced, not snipes at fellow posters (Yup that's what they are 'fellow' posters. Disagree with something you can at least pretend is documentation, or snipe at your 'fellow posters' selection of sources.

Mine is from the AP by way of Aljazeera. I just heard it broadcast on NPR and I'm pretty sure I've heard it on the Beeb.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:41 AM

I posted about this in the other thread. It broke my heart to hear about it. I can never ever get my head around the absolute cruelty, callousness, indifference and evil of people who would do this.
Why haven't the United Nations got involved and imposed sanctions? It's genocide at its worst.
I've been many times in Sub-Saharan Africa and the heat is terrifying.
God knows what conditions in the interior of the Sahara are like. Those poor, poor folk.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:06 AM

There's a thread about a song by Mudcatter Ted Warmerdam called Who's the Criminal?, about activists who were arrested for assisting refugees. It's a powerful song.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:18 AM

By entitling your thread "real refugee thread" poses an immediate problem in suggesting that the other millions of refugees are not "real"
That aside, your point is an excellent one
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:00 PM

Thought I'd let this thread settle down before I said anything
Algeria sums up the refugee crisis and its origins perfectly
A former French Colony, a horrific fight for independence which brought about the deaths of 1.5 million Algerians and almost led to a military coup in France, (an excellent account of this war can be found in Paul Henissart's 'Wolves in the City'

A Socialist Government operated a 'controlled democracy' policy which was violent overthrown by Islamist militants
Then along came the oil giants and a squabble about who should sell arms to the new lot - Russia or the U.S., Germany, France and the United Kingdom.   
When oil rears it's predatory head, a refugee crisis is inevitably not far behind
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Iains
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:09 PM

When oil rears it's predatory head, a refugee crisis is inevitably not far behind
A sweeping statement,not backed by the facts.

Rank        Country        Barrels (Millions of Barrels)
1        Venezuela        300,878
2        Saudi Arabia        266,455
3        Canada               169,709
4        Iran               158,400

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Senoufou
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 01:13 PM

I think these refugees/migrants were from Niger and Liberia. Many try to get to Europe across the Med via Libya and Algeria.

I met an Algerian security guard in a Nike shop in Norwich at the weekend. We chatted in French about the football and he was very amicable. But when my husband came up (he'd been paying at the till) he suddenly turned hostile and dismissive.
My husband explained later that North Africans often regard black Africans as inferior and 'primitive'.
I wonder if this explains to some extent their callous treatment of the
refugees.
The poor souls had probably paid 'traffickers' to get them into Algeria, and then they died of thirst and exposure in the Saharan sand.
Heartbreaking.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:01 PM

Not borne ot by facts - You sure 'bout datIains
Jim Carroll!

BRITAIN
AMERICA
ITALY
RUSSIA
GERMANY
CHINA
SPAIN
HUNGARY
TURKEY

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:23 PM

Algeria, colonized by Arabs then colonized by French now colonized by Arabs under Arab nationalist regime.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:48 PM

"Algeria, colonized by Arabs"
What!!!
The Arabs have had a presence in Algeria since 4000 BC,
Following the Cartheginian, Ottoman Spanish empires, the French arrived in the 19th century and were driven out by the rightful Arab inhabitants in the 1950s
Are you insane?
Take you Islamophobia elsewhere please Bobad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 02:51 PM

The Arabs have had a presence in Algeria since 4000 BC........ lol

Take you Islamophobia elsewhere please Bobad........lol

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:01 PM

The Amazigh, the Mozabite and the Tuarega are the indigenous peoples of Algeria, as well as of other countries of North Africa and the Sahara. The Amazigh are also known by the name “Berber”, which derives from the Roman term for “barbarian”, a name given to anyone who did not speak Latin.

Amazigh (plural Imazigen) means “free man”. They have been present in these territories since ancient times , according to the historian, Malika Hachid, their presence in the region dates back more than 10,000 years and “Berber as an identity and culture was forged in the lands of North Africa and nowhere else”.

The indigenous population can primarily be distinguished from other inhabitants by their language (Tamazight), but also by their way of life and their culture (clothes, food, belief ect.). Urbanisation and the policy of Arabisation are, however, increasingly destroying the characteristic features of the Amazigh.

After decades of demands and popular struggles, the Amazigh language was finally recognised as a “national language” in the Constitution in 2002. Despite this achievement, the Amazigh identity continues to be marginalised and folklorised by state institutions.

Officially, Algeria is still presented as an “Arab country” and anti-Amazigh laws are still in force (such as the 1992 Law of Arabisation).

No Recognition of Indigenous Peoples in Algeria

The Algerian government, does not recognise the indigenous status of the Amazigh. Because of this, there are no official statistics concerning the number of Amazigh in Algeria. On the basis of demographic data relating to the territories in which Tamazight-speaking populations live, NGOs estimate the Tamazight-speaking population at around 11 million people, or 1/3 of Algeria’s total population.

https://www.iwgia.org/en/algeria/708-indigenous-peoples-in-algeria


The Arab invasion of the Maghrib began in 642 AD when Amr ibn al-As, the governor of Egypt, invaded Cyrenaica, advancing as far as the city of Tripoli by 645 AD. Further expansion into North Africa waited another twenty years, due to the First Islamic civil war. In 670 AD, Uqba ibn Nafi al-Fihiri invaded what is now Tunisia in an attempt to take the region from the Byzantine Empire, but was only partially successful. He founded the town of Kairouan but was replaced by Abul-Muhajir Dinar in 674 AD. Abul-Muhajir successfully advanced into what is now eastern Algeria incorporating the Berber confederation ruled by Kusaila into the Islamic sphere of influence.

A History of the Maghrib in the Islamic Period, Cambridge University Press, 1987.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:13 PM

Jim Carroll, have you never heard of
"un sourire kabyle" ?

This is a phrase from the "pieds-noirs" French who colonized North Africa.
When a person has survived getting their throat sliced open,
and bears the resulting horizontal scar beneath the chin,
that scar is termed "un sourire kabyle." A "Kabylian" smile.
The implication being the "les kabyles" are a bunch of cutthroats.

But then, have you seen the "Kabylie" entry in
the Encyclopedia Brittanica? Here's a quick-and-dirty quote.
"In the Kabylie [region] (from the Arabic qabilah, "tribe"),
and especially in the Great Kabylie,
the Berber people and their culture have survived in purest form.
The mountain strongholds were never fully subdued
by the Romans, Arabs, or Turks,
and they offered fierce resistance to the French in the 1850's."

...which is not all that long ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: keberoxu
Date: 02 Jul 18 - 03:14 PM

Or,
are you calling the French "pied-noirs" , erm, Islamophobes?

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 05:01 AM

"are you calling the French "pied-noirs" , erm, Islamophobes?"
Nop - I am calling Bobad one
The Arabs have occupied Algeria for as long as I described - long before the regime change after the Battle of Hastings, suggesting they "colonised it" is ****** nonsense
Would you suggest the present occupants of Britain as "colonists"
God only knows whwre that would leave the president denizens of the U.S. - friggin' newcomers (or 'blow-ins, as they say in Irelabd)
This has to be a wind-up!!

Great cartoon regarding Trump's Wall in the Times this morning following the landslide Socialist victory in Mexico
A Trump acolyte holding a newspaper announcing the result is saying to his boss:
"But we have to let them in - they're fleeing Communism!"

Happy days are here again
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 05:36 AM

"pied-noirs"
A term for people of European origin who were born in Algeria between the years 1830 and 1962
Were they Islamophobes?
WORK THAT ONE OUT FOR YOURSELF
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 06:32 AM

OP,
"Please restrict your comments to actual points about actual refugees, people being displaced, not snipes at fellow posters"

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 07:11 AM

Don't know who you are referring to put please restrict our comments to threads you are posting to
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 08:34 AM

The Arabs have occupied Algeria for as long as I described.........The Arabs have had a presence in Algeria since 4000 BC

Er, no:

The Amazigh, the Mozabite and the Tuarega are the indigenous peoples of Algeria

The Arab invasion of the Maghrib began in 642 AD
    --A History of the Maghrib in the Islamic Period, Cambridge University Press, 1987.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Iains
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 10:23 AM

Not borne ot by facts - You sure 'bout datIains
Yup!
Sonatrech has been around for decades. They are also a state owned company. As are the three largest oil and gas companies Aramco, Gazprom, The national Iranian oil company,
I think you are confusing oil companies with oil supplies/reserves.
After 40 years in the industry I can assure you there is a big difference between the two. State oil companies do as instructed,the majors do deals where they can. If the reserves are in shitty places generally the local politics is as well and the deals done are shitty.    Harsh reality. Negotiation is with those that control the resource, they are not always nice people. No deal leads to no reserves, leads quickly to no oil. If you do not wish to do deals with such people
lack of mobility, food and light may be regarded as suitable compensation for having the moral high ground. Not all share that view however.
Politics creates the vast majority of regugees/migrants/ immigrants

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/world/historical-migrant-crisis/


http://www.unhcr.org/en-ie/research/working/3e19ac624/addressing-causes-migratory-refugee-movements-role-european-union-christin

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: keberoxu
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 11:42 AM

I regret my contribution to this thread's hijacking.
If I have something to say about Mediterranean-coast history or pre-history, I will take it to a different thread from now on.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 02:50 PM

"The Amazigh, the Mozabite and the Tuareg are the indigenous peoples of Algeria"
I didn't say they were the only people there but so what
They are all different branches of Berber, many of them consider themselves as Arabs
What are you trying to probve Bobad - no doubt that Arabs have no claim on Algeria as they have no claim to Palestine
Time for the extermination camps eh
Stop this now
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 02:56 PM

Arab History from Wiki

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 02:58 PM

The Arabs came to Algeria in 642, they stayed for a couple of centuries, left for a short period and finally came back in force in the sixteenth century, when they became the dominant settled culture
If you are claiming that gives no right to claim Algeria as their home I should carefully examine arguments you have put forward of the right of other cultures returning to claim a country their rightful home
Think we're done here, don't you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 03 Jul 18 - 06:11 PM

What are you trying to probve Bobad

Not trying to prove anything - simply correcting factual errors.

What are you trying to prove?

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 03:59 AM

"What are you trying to prove?"
Hardly necessary, but I'm pointing ot that people like you, who claim to speak on behalf of the six million who died at the hands of the Nazis constantly echo the same hatred towards Muslims that drove those millions to their deaths
It's about time you people realised what that hatred achieved and what it is likely to achieve again if it isn't stopped
You use every opportunity to express hour hatred of Muslims - get a grip
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:18 AM

Please restrict your comments to actual points about actual refugees, people being displaced, not snipes at fellow posters

Some always fall on stony ground. Time for closure!

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Senoufou
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 04:41 AM

I don't think it's all that relevant who was there first, who runs the country or of what race the inhabitants are. The point (I assume) of this thread is to condemn the actions of people who herd vulnerable folk into lorries at gunpoint, shove them out in the Sahara and tell them to 'walk'.
Pregnant women, children, half-starved people. Disgusting.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 06:29 AM

"Please restrict your comments to actual points about actual refugees, people being displaced, not snipes at fellow posters "
Nobody is Iains
We are arguing about refugees, their identity, their treatment and the effect this is having on all of us (not just the refugees) as we were on the other thread before it was closed
I was attempting to draw comparisons from recent history, as we attempted to do by discussing oil supplies - all relevant
This discussion would be that much easier if people didn't try to steer it
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 06:45 AM

I don't think it's all that relevant who was there first, who runs the country.......

It is those who run the country that are responsible for the treatment of the refugees so yes it is relevant. Trying to place blame for the current situation on the French, as Carroll is doing, is specious at best, smacking of an agenda at worst when the country has not been under French rule for fifty six years. So, yes let us direct our condemnations against those responsible.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 07:00 AM

Jim
Your previous thread "Refugee Clampdown" was closed because it descended into a circular 'tit for tat' excuse for a discussion.

This one was started with the specific request:
Please restrict your comments to actual points about actual refugees, people being displaced, not snipes at fellow posters (Yup that's what they are 'fellow' posters. Disagree with something you can at least pretend is documentation, or snipe at your 'fellow posters' selection of sources.

Please bear that in mind before you (and others) get this one similarly closed.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 07:11 AM

Most of the problems in these countries can be traced beck to either oil or the hangover of Colonialism - or a combination of both
Countries that once had empires bear a direct or indirect
responsibility for what is now happening - in France's case, Algeria - as far as Britain is concerned, the list is formidable
SEE HERE
AND HERE
In both cases, how refugees are being treated is pretty appalling
Jim Cases

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 07:16 AM

The treatment of the refugees has nothing to do with oil.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 07:39 AM

The collective expulsion of migrants and the disregard for their distinct statuses suggests that the Algerian authorities are arresting men and women based on their skin color instead of an individual assessment of their cases, as required by international law.

Human Rights Watch

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 07:50 AM

I was not going to comment on this thread but
Jim
how do You explain the existence of refugees before the discovery of oil and European Empires?

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:01 AM

"At the 10th Extraordinary Summit of the African Union, which took place last week, Algeria, along with Mauritania, Tunisia, Libya, Egypt and a number of other countries refused to sign the protocol on the freedom of movement of people and right of residence attached to the African Union’s African Continental Free Trade Area agreement. Reportedly this is due to fears of mass migration to North Africa from sub-Saharan Africa"
"Algeria has repatriated 27,000 sub-Saharan African migrants since 2015, a rare official statistic revealed by the interior minister Nouredine Bedoui last Thursday. He added that repatriations are still ongoing. Algeria is a key destination and transit country for many African migrants, mostly from Mali, Niger, Burkina Faso or Chad. People who have been deported from Algeria earlier this month, stated they were detained in makeshift camps for a few days before being taken on trucks and sent across the border at gunpoint. They then had to walk through the desert for hours to reach In Khalil, the first town in Mali."

Some may be economic migrants, others escaping from the resulting instability of Islamic terrorist groups. Nothing to do with colonialism, more to do with the onslaught of US hegemony encouraging the growth of Islamic terrorist groups especially ISIS. Isis arouse from the instability in Iraq in 2004 and was an offshoot of Al Quaeda.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:03 AM

Natural disasters and undeveloped civilisations maybe
The planet has now reached the stage where both cam be coped with to a degree, largely through a developing consciousness that these events need to be dealt with in human terms rather than the 'let them sink or swim' attitude that dominated the past
The Holocaust was a modern major tuning point in establishing an international conscience based to a degree on humanitarianism, but I think we are rapidly losing that
It seems to me that very few media outlets go into this to any extent, usually those with a leftish leaning or religious outlook
The rest concentrate on the possible (or invented) effects of the problems of 'foreigners'
Much of the present refugee crisis is down to keeping our cars on the road - an unquenchable thirst for oil
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:11 AM

Sorry - that was in reply to Kenny B
I really don't believe that this persistent attempt to introduce illegality or possible terrorism into this discussion helps in any way
Both are a problem, sure, but those problems are solvable and are vastly outweighed by the humanitarian aspects of this self-created Frankenstein monstrosity
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/migrants-mediterranean-sea-crossings-2000-dead-world-refugee-day-asylum-seekers-boat-disasters-libya-a7800376.html
(can't blue clickie)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:20 AM

The treatment of refugees in Algeria has nothing to do with the French, with oil or US hegemony conspiracy theories. It has everything to do with anti black racism of the Algerian government and its agencies.

Witness these quotes:

the presence of African migrants and refugees in several localities of the country could cause problems for the Algerians, notably the spread of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases… Hence, the decision of the Algerian authorities to expel them in order to avoid a catastrophe.

Farouk Ksentini,president of the Algerian National Commission of the Promotion of Human Rights.

The presence of the African migrants and refugees in several places of the country could cause problems for the Algerians, notably the proliferation of AIDS and other sexually transmitted diseases… From where, the decision of the Algerian authorities to expel them in order to avoid a catastrophe.

Saïda Benhabylès, president of the Algerian Red Cross.


Algeria's Black Fear

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:29 AM

America's refugees are called asylum seekers
Jeff Sessions no longer recognizes asylum status or immigrant's right to work.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:37 AM

Jim's link: Migrant deaths in Mediterranean in 2017 pass 2,000 mark on World Refugee Day after new boat disasters (The Independent)

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:39 AM

I have no doubt that the anti-black racism has much to do with the problems in Algeria, just as anti-Muslim racism plays a part elsewhere, but, as figures show, the action or inaction of countries wishing to maintain a secure flow of oil and 'a safe pair of hands' Governments is every bit as culpable
Your hand-washing 'nuffin to do with us guv' interventions are useful only in illustrating the inhuman indifference to the plight of millions, but nothing else
Finished with you Bobad
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Iains
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:40 AM

Northern Mali is actually in the control of dissident groups which adds further to the problems. To try to separate terrorism from this thread is fail to understand a leading cause of the migration pattern discussed

http://www.ipsnews.net/2017/06/instability-widens-in-mali-and-the-sahel-region-of-africa/

https://www.csis.org/programs/transnational-threats-project/projects/militancy-and-arc-instability/militancy-and-arc-2

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:48 AM

a leading cause of the migration pattern discussed

This is a thread about how the refugees in Algeria are being treated.

If you want to discuss what is causing refugees in the first place I suggest you start a thread on that topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 08:57 AM

Finished with you Bobad......lol.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 09:06 AM

"This is a thread about how the refugees in Algeria are being treated. "
This is a continuation of the closed thread - nobody has the right to restrict what is discussed and prevent posters from taking it where they wish

More blaming the "terrorist" victims Iains
Perhaps the drowned sprog that was carried out of the sea was a closet one!
Or maybe it's a case of small fleas breeding bigger ones
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 09:32 AM

This is a continuation of the closed thread - nobody has the right to restrict what is discussed and prevent posters from taking it where they wish

It would be pointless to open a new thread as a 'continuation' of a thread which had been closed for an abusive discussion.
The person who started this thread specifically stated how they wished it be used. If that is continually ignored it would make sense for this thread to follow the fate of the earlier one.

You can't continually dump the same arguments into any thread you think gives you the slightest excuse (well, you can, but it makes you look like a Troll)

From the OP: Please restrict your comments to actual points about actual refugees, people being displaced, not snipes at fellow posters (Yup that's what they are 'fellow' posters. Disagree with something you can at least pretend is documentation, or snipe at your 'fellow posters' selection of sources.

Subject: RE: BS: Walk or Die - Real Refugee Thread
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jul 18 - 09:59 AM

You can dump anything you wish into any thread if you feel it falls within the general heading of the subject matter
It seems a waste of time opening another thread on what appeats to me to be the same problem
All these different groups of migrants and refugees have their individual features - I believe thet are all traceable back to a single source
I think Bobad's attempts to shift the blame for the Algerian situation onto the Muslims underlined that link

Many thanks for blue clickying my link, by the way (you'll have to explain hot to do that with 'Independent' articles sometime - never got the hand of it
Jim Carroll