BS: Crosswords

Subject: BS: Crosswords, etc,
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 03:49 AM

Didn't sleep last night and one little brief distraction was Everyman. And I'm wondering who else here is doing crosswords these days.

I usually do the "Quiptic" in the Guardian on a Monday and hope for an easier cryptic that day as well. Things were easier when Rufus was the regular setter but they vary more now, though Chifonie for example would be worth a try for me.

I did complete Auricaria a couple of times but leave the likes of Paul alone (and may not even get a start with some cryptics). I don't know the setters in the other (I suppose) quality UK papers.

I also usually try the Guardian Quick when it's published on line at midnight before bed and use the stright one in the i (the national we get at home) as distraction therapy when the dressing on my back is changed. Also, depending on mood, I might run through the ones in regional EDP.

Sometimes other things too, eg. I usually get through the i one, move on to something where words have to have the same meaning, rhyme or change a letter in pairs and sometimes move on the word ladders... Might try a code word or something else in a puzzle book once in a while.

Any others?

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:07 AM

I'm a real wimp when it comes to crosswords and have never got much further than the Mirror's quick crossword. I tend to spend 10 minutes doing that online in my lunch break.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM

Ooooh yes, me! But I hardly dare mention the dreaded Daily Mail, which I buy just for the four pages of crosswords and puzzles (Sudoku, mini-quizzes etc) It keeps me busy for about two hours and gives my husband a bit of peace. I always go through them with a made-to-order sandwich from the village shop and a nice cup of tea beside me. Bliss!

I start with the small non-cryptic one on the back page, then the larger cryptic one inside. I love cryptic crosswords.

My much brainier sister has the Times, and does their cryptic one fairly quickly. Our dad used to do the same.

I'm sorry you couldn't sleep Jon. Was it that your back was troubling you? Hope you get some better shut-eye tonight!

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:22 AM

Used to try that one early 80s. Should have known the word anyway but me and my mate whose paper it was on lunch break picked up the word "despot". Apologies to other Daves but one of the bosses names was Dave (Who wasn't really that bad) and we decided "Despot Dave" had a certain ring to it.

Moved up to the Sun when I was on the line at Hotpoint, again, someone else's paper...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:30 AM

Yep, it was the back, Sen. It comes and goes.

My father was the best in the family, doing Ximines, starting doing them with his father and later doing Azed (both Observer) but the stroke put paid to that although he can once in a while astound you.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Senoufou
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:37 AM

My father and I were very good mates (sister was born six years later!) and he used to sit me down with the crossword and explain the cryptic clues and the solutions to me, and prompt me to get the answers. I cottoned on quite fast and the two of us would crack on at the crossword together in the evening (once my homework was done!)

It helps to have someone explain cryptic crosswords, as there are certain 'rules' and established ways of looking at each clue. I used to adore any that involved anagrams.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 04:50 AM

I tried on and off but really was a late starter in terms of trying cryptics on a more regular basis.

IF you want to see how the answers to some of the UK cryptic crosswords are arrived at, Fifteen Squared is worth a look.

Note they do (rightly) run a week or so behind with the prize crosswords.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:16 AM

When I was job-hunting I was told that a mostly completed crossword with the answers scribbled as if unsure on the side was a plus point in interviews. Displayed everso nonchalantly!
So I used to do the Telegrope cryptic. The one day I got all but one clue, and was about to put the last answer when I was called for interview. It wasn't a job, it was to (successfully) become MIEE. The first words the interviewer said was -"did you finish the crossword". SUSSED in one!

It was unusual to get so far, but I was kept waiting and hyped-up, mostly I got about halfway.

These days I eschew crosswords and prefer to write computer programs. Infinitely more challenging, and there is no prescribed answer. But plenty of alternatives, and many road-blocks. I think I am up to 200K JavaScript across 10 websites. And unmeasured back-end stuff at home, to automate things.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:31 AM

Sometimes run to the computer bit too Mr. Red. But I need to think of something I "need" first. Actually, now I have a new scanner and have found a Java library (off hand, jfreesane), I've been toying with writing something that would scan from an Android to a sane (I think it would be like Twain to you on Windows) backend over the network. But enthusiasm and even belief I could still do that seems to wane...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:44 AM

I'm totally obsessed
Irish Times enigmatic one which I occasionally manageto finish and the Times small enigmatic one (most of the time)
The real hooker for me is Codeword, (just finished the Times one) - have now taken to downloading the freebies from the net
Then I have breakfast !!!
I find it keeps my sometimes failing memory active
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:22 AM

I shed a quiet tear when Araucaria passed away because tackling his crosswords had been a family tradition. Some of his clues had a wit that made them special. We weren't very good at it, but that isn't the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 06:33 AM

I didn't try many more of Araucaria than the couple I completed (say 25% pass mark) but I knew of his reputation as a setter and wanted to get through at least one. I think he was missed by many.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:01 AM

I'm almost certainly in a minority of one, but I find crosswords to be a complete waste of time, and I won't do sudokus or any other of those puzzles.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:03 AM

"I knew of his reputation as a setter and wanted to get through at least one."
Sometimes I was left with the impression that it depended on what he had had fro breakfast the day he compiled them
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:09 AM

Hmm, Steve. Though I think I'm a youngster (58) compared to Jim, I'd agree with the something to work the mind, and like Karen can sometimes find some clever wit in clues.

But each to their own and I doubt your in a minority...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Will Fly
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:09 AM

Guardian Quick Crossword, Guardian Cryptic Crossword, Sudoku and then the Word Wheel - all fill in the time between afternoon tea and dinner on those wet afternoons when I'm not practising on an instrument or out with the camera.

Alas, I couldn't get on with Auracaria, bless him - too tortuous for a Bear of Little Brain...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Thompson
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 01:44 PM

Funny thing: Americans apparently have no concept of the cryptic crosswords. All their crosswords are plain definition ones.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: weerover
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 02:10 PM

I am addicted to AZED in the Observer and ususally manage to complete. Record so far 35 minutes.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: KarenH
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:29 PM

Managed a mere five clues in Sat's Grauniad cryptic :(

Liked the clue to 20,1 down, corny old joke I know, but I'm corny and old

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: robomatic
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 05:37 PM

I used to do New York Times Crosswords but I'm smart any nough not more. I can do the easier sudokus but they are not as much fun. I can remember if I've done a crossword because of all the neat word associations they engender but I could do a sudoku and you could give the same one to me unfilled-in about three days later and I'd never know if I'd seen it before.
There are a sudoku like puzzle being popularized by the New York Times called Ken-Ken.
I usually face increasing piles of newspapers with uncompleted sudokus and crossword puzzles until they begin to cover up things like carpetting and plates of food. Then I have to toss 'em with a profound feeling of accumulated failure.
But I finish the cryptoquotes! Pretend I'm working at Bletchley Park sussing out Enigma variations.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: keberoxu
Date: 16 Sep 18 - 07:01 PM

Will Fly,
it's reassuring to know that
I am not the only Bear of Little Brain out here.

A close relative included newspaper crosswords in their daily routine. And could cheerfully carry on about same,
in conversations afterwards (or, should I say, conversations between puzzles).

Moving to the East Coast of the US for university,
I somehow encountered the London Sunday Times crossword.
I'm not certain how, as it was NOT from the London Sunday Times
but printed, with permission, in some local sheet or other.

So, to tease my relative,
I saved up several of these notorious crosswords
and was careful to save up their answer-diagrams as well.
Then shipped them in the mail to said relative.

Who, when I was back for a family holiday/reunion,
marched up to me, and intoned,
in their most menacing manner:
"If.
You Ever.
Send Me One Of Those.
Again.
I Will KILL YOU."

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 05:51 AM

the same one to me unfilled-in about three days later and I'd never know if I'd seen it before - I think that is their success. No need to compute new ones.

The Telegrope, in the days I used to wordcross, was often pretty witty and the first and second answers at the top of the grid were curiously related as a phrase - usually they read horizontally across the page.

As for writing in Java/Script for Android. I tried de-bugging my websites via a phone connected to Windows and could never get a response. I just resorted to dropping in "Alerts". But I had to have the files on-line. There is a wheeze, but it differs from the way Windows allows. And certainly not Excel files & VBA/macros. Office apps are "readers" after all. Nothing remotely clever gets enacted even in cells.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 07:09 AM

(On the Android (which itself would usually be Java but one can also use native code say in C) drift, I've no idea about using one with web stuff but there is a procedure before using one for development of apps. Settings/Build Number and click about 7 times. This will enable a new menu of "development options" where you can set things including USB debugging)

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Stanron
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 07:15 AM

I subscribed to the Times online a few years ago solely to try the cryptic crossword. At something like £1 a week it was far cheaper than buying the paper. In the end I discontinued it as I didn't do it enough to justify £52 a year. I wasn't all that good at it.

I prefer Sudoku and Killer Sudoku best of all. There are plenty of computer programs for Sudoku but not that many for Killer. In fact my only gripe at Linux software is that there are no decent Sudoku or Killer Sudoku programs at all. There is a KSudoku suite that contains those two but they are properly messed up.

Most of my Sudoku puzzles came from newspapers and I got white paper and black ink. I like white paper and black ink. Can I get white paper and black ink in Ksudoku? No chance. The programmers have become so seduced by visually exciting graphics and flashing lights that they have omitted the 3x3 grid altogether in Killer. It makes the game just about unplayable. Just as bad, possibly worse, is the fact that they insist on given numbers looking different to entered numbers with no option to to make them all look the same.

Sudoku is a visual puzzle. The numbers could be replaced by any nine other patterns. Only in Killer Sudoku is the actual number value an issue. Having a given 3 look different from an entered 3 in a game of visual pattern placing is daft. Rant over. I just buy Sudoku books from Tescos now.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Mo the caller
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 07:47 AM

I learnt crosswords when our group at work started doing the Guardian cryptic in the lunch hour. It does help to have someone to explain the phrases that can (but don't always!) indicate an anagram / homophone / included word etc. And that a 'flower' might flow rather than grow.
The first memorable crossword was a double grid for Easter, featuring the opening of Gray's elegy (the last word of the quote held us up for a bit as we expected 2 letters but it had 4.)

Don't know if it was an Araucaria, but I used to enjoy his bank holiday doubles. Well all his really until the shocking one in 2013.
They might take a while to get into, but there was an 'oh yes' moment (or maybe a groan) when it all fell into place.

There just isn't another setter - my son-in-law likes Paul, but I can't get into him. Maybe I'm too old now to get into a different setters mind.

So I do online puzzles sudokos & related. And have just discovered online Griddlers, have tried them in a newspaper but there isn't the same opportunity to experiment - once you've marked it that's it.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Mo the caller
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 07:52 AM

It's nice to do crosswords with someone, when my daughter was at home we used to sit on the sofa together and when one of us solved a clue we didn't shout it out, but said which one - surprising how often that was the spur for the other (hints if needed).
And one may be able to explain why the word the other has thought of fits the clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 08:07 AM

On the puzzle books, I went through a spell years ago of enjoying the "logic problems" (a grid and clues that might lead you say Mr Brown was the bank manager at no 12 who had yorkshire puddings, etc.) and did get a book just for those. These days we just pick up something like the monthly Puzzer once in a while and it gets shared. Pip for example likes the wordsearch, I for example like the dilemma (2 clues and grids and you have to sort which say 12A belongs to which grid) - at least if it doesn't go wrong and most of the book usually at least gets attempted by one or other.

Don't understand why people/programmers are feeling that need stanron. To me, even if it's just say reading a web site, flashy, bad colour choices, etc. serve no purpose other than to confuse and/or irritate a user. At least as a general rule - some can combine good artistic talent with something that works but it's not that common...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 08:27 AM

I did manage one Paul, Mo but there were far to many where I was just seeing the definition part, was sure the answer had to be but could not see why and there's no satisfaction in that.

I've a feeling a brother did like Paul although I also think Aracne (another of many usually too hard for me to want to try) was one he mentioned as very enjoyable when we had a chat about them the other day.   At least he used to enjoy them. He's pretty good in a lot of ways but a brain injury after a car crash affected his ability to twist words and devious clues around.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Charmion
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 08:47 AM

I subscribe to the on-line edition of the New York Times and am an abject slave to the crossword puzzle, which I do on my creaking iPad. It's a daily ritual that Himself knows better than to interrupt. I permit myself to use Wikipedia to check only certain clues, especially American sports teams and the abbreviations used to identify them on scoreboards, and the names of rap and hip-hop performers and the titles of their hit "songs".

I consider myself a mere second-tier cruciverbalist, however, as I am crap at the cryptics that appear in the Globe & Mail. Himself does those, and we continue to receive the actual printed version of the paper specifically to accommodate that habit. Oh, and to wrap up the daily gleanings from the cats' litter box, as we lack a birdcage to line the bottom of.

Neither of my parents ever did crosswords, so I have no idea why I started. It must have been when I was very young, because my mother used to clip the crossword from the Ottawa Citizen and send me a week's worth every Sunday when I was in the service. When I was purging the filing cabinet before last year's house move, I found a clutch of her letters, several with carefully dated slips of yellowing newsprint in them.

I've never been any good at anagrams or jumbles, though. The New York Times puzzle depends more on knowledge of trivia, and the more difficult ones have a gimmick that, once you identify it, makes the whole puzzle fall into your hands. Anyone who can do a Brit cryptic would find even the most difficult New York Times puzzle (Saturday!) a doddle.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 09:22 AM

Things I thought I'd noticed with a North American crossword is that they seem to use a grid where more words and letters interlink, so (unless we are talking a skeleton) more white squares than black ones than I'm used to, and also perhaps more sort of general knowledge in a quick and of course there is the vocabulary.

Although every bit of that may be sweeping generalisation and a few at least on line UK crosswords seem to carry the US grid...

I sometimes read through (and I think did post a few times) comments in the Guardian on ones I've tried and you do see N American and antipodean contributors there but I guess most are "ex pat".

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: C-flat
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 11:59 AM

I love a crossword, although I'm reduced to doing the quick on-line Guardian in my work break.
Thankfully not too testing to complete.
I used to love cryptic crosswords but really struggle these days to break into the mind set of the puzzle setter. Some of the cryptic references baffle me even when I have the answers.
I wonder if it's because I was used to doing the puzzle in the same newspaper each day and that was being set by the same individual, allowing us to get inside the mind set.
On the other hand, maybe I'm just getting too old for mental Olympics...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:14 PM

Guardian for one, certainly does vary in the cryptics and in "my time" until recently tended to be relied upon for a gentle start to the week (typically my limit) and as you will find here. may have different identities in different papers.

Setters, some, eg, Rufus may have been be known as keeping to his own way of "easier" and I'd guess some may be always "impossible" (at least to me) and others (to phrase the brother mentioned before) may "blow hot and cold"...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:16 PM

This is probably a better list

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Senoufou
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:21 PM

Medics used to maintain that doing crosswords and puzzles helped to protect one from dementia.
They also said using a second language was good exercise for the brain and staved off dementia.

I speak French all day to my husband, and a bit of Malinke.
I do two hours of mental Olympics with the crosswords/sudokus etc.
I felt extremely smug in the knowledge that I was keeping my mind sharp to the bitter end.

THEN 'they' say that it's not true. No science to back it up. You can get as dotty as a brush even if you do crosswords all day long.

This morning I was struggling to remember the name Una Stubbs. And the name of the programme where the husband called his wife a 'silly old moo'. ('Til Death Us Do Part') Forgot where I'd left the dustpan and brush.
So doing the crosswords hasn't protected me from dementia one little bit.

Gutted...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:49 PM

I think it works in a variety of ways, Sen. As indicated before, I'd fall into an (as well as enjoying some just for fun) sort of trying not to let the brain stagnate camp and even if some think I'm as mad as a hatter (and did once, pick up the label schizophrenic). And like mental chalenges, at least if I think I can get there or learn something. I like "home projects" , no reader but bit of a try with a lathe, bit of plumbing, programming, etc. may all be within reach if (rarely) an idea crops up. Probably nothing really complicated but if you can see your way to once writing a web site Folkinfo with say the abc converter still used elsewhere), sorted out a gardening issue with waterbutts, manage (Although pulled when it got an inexplic

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:51 PM

...able run of negative reviews, etc. You like to think you may me still capable of something some day...


Other side, less thatn sure. A brother and father were both far better than me and cryptics and both lost the ability through other factors..

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Sep 18 - 12:52 PM

(not reviews - it just hit a run of one stars without explanation)

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 01:39 AM

I worked at a plant with a bunch of electricians who seemed to have a lot of lounge time; they spent some of it doing sudokus. One of the assistants would Xerox the daily one out of the newspaper and provide many copies. Several of them teamed up against the prime enthusiast by preparing an insoluble sudoku to drive him crazy. Which it did. He couldn't find where he'd put in the wrong number.

Don't get those guys mad at you.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: leeneia
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 02:40 PM

Don't worry, Senoufou. It's normal to forget names and not remember where you set things down.

If you put your keys down and can't remember where, that's normal. If you pick your keys up and you don't know what they are for, that's dementia.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Senoufou
Date: 18 Sep 18 - 02:54 PM

Thank you leeneia, you've reassured me enormously;

I have to have a little boast here, because I do my 'Sporcle' quizzes quite often and score full marks each time. They involve rattling off all the 118 elements in the Periodic Table, all the States of the USA and all 54 countries of Africa. I do it just to prove to myself that I still have what passes for a brain.

Perhaps I couldn't remember where I'd left the dustpan and brush because subconsciously I wasn't terribly interested in sweeping the kitchen floor...

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Mr Red
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 05:31 AM

perhaps we should produce a CROSSword ambi-lexicon here. Fer instance

flower - might be vegetation or a river
contained/held/middle of - some of the letters inside a following word
cardinal - points on a compass - or priest.
with/following/married - another letter sequence is concatenated to the other, equally obscure, part answer.

any more?

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 05:57 AM

about - anagram
around - one word in another

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 06:04 AM

What's the clue for when you put the end of one word with the beginning of the next?

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: C-flat
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 09:44 AM

Stuck in the mud, Catherine found an online folk forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Mo the caller
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 03:03 PM

Stanron, I call that an included word (is there a posh name??), and it might be indicated by 'in' 'from' or many phrases. You have to read a crossword clue with as many different punctuations, pronunciations and emphases as you can, it is meant to mislead you.
Mr Red,
points of the compass have various clues, and are often used
Anagrams might be indicated by, mixed, confused, etc

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Sep 18 - 03:16 PM

Thanks Mo. I like C-flat's example.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Roughyed
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:57 PM

I started doing cryptic crosswords with my mother about 50 years ago. My dad used to get the Telegraph back then and it was a good one to learn on. He got more left wing as the political situation sharpened up in the late 60s, early 70s and started to get the Guardian and I'm still doing the cryptic every day and the Prize on Saturday although I've never sent it in - if you need a dictionary and thesaurus you can't do the crossword in the first place.

Araucaria was my all time favourite and I was genuinely upset when he announced in crossword form that he was dying. Paul is my current favourite but to I like most of the setters on the Guardian at the moment.

There is a blog here which gives you the reasoning for every Guardian puzzle answer and is really useful particularly when you are learning how they work.

I'm not particularly clever, I've just been doing it a long time and learnt how to think on this wavelength

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Roughyed
Date: 21 Sep 18 - 08:59 PM

Sorry, missed the blue clicky for Fifteen Squared Fifteen Squared

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 03:29 AM

deviated - anagram

She is pretty, so is her mother - "Pearl"

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Senoufou
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 04:11 AM

I dislike it if a crossword has references to what are nowadays known as 'Celebs'. I don't watch that sort of TV and have no idea who these people are. Luckily, that type of clue doesn't often crop up in the crosswords I usually tackle.

Subject: RE: BS: Crosswords
From: Mo the caller
Date: 22 Sep 18 - 04:28 PM

The link Jon posted @ 17 Sep 18 - 12:16 has a video of and in tribute to Araucaria, from the Guardian