BS: Conferences + 3

Subject: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 04:09 PM

Well the Conservative Party Conference has been on-going and from what I see the party is utterly at odds with itself.

Various factions completing for the main stage, Teresa May (god help her) being stabbed in the back left, right and center and to top it all Arlene Foster being somewhat "unhelpful"

And some people claim Labour has problems !!

PS Please Mods, I know this topic won't mean much to most of you, but it does matter to us on this side of the pond.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 05:05 PM

I'm reading a trilogy of novels by Robert Harris about Cicero. The current conservative political parties of the world seem very much akin to the politics of Caesar and Cicero and the Roman Republic.
God help us.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 05:13 PM

There are certainly comparisons Joe.

There is an article in todays Guardian entitled "Teresa May still has everything to play for with Brexit" written by a former speechwriter for David Cameron.

It makes interesting reading. Could some please link.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Iains
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 05:37 PM

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/oct/02/theresa-may-brexit-prime-minister-deal-tory

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 05:37 PM

The other one only went away at the author's request, it got a bit mangled in concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 06:05 PM

My brain is somewhat mangled at the appearance of the post just above yours, Maggie...

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 06:21 PM

Why is the conservative party allowed to mangle concepts, but we get threads closed down when we do it?

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Oct 18 - 07:33 PM

He gave it the wrong name for what he had in mind and the text in the first post didn't line up with the new name he asked for when he came back and remarked on his "brain fart," and then he asked to have it closed. It could have been fixed but since it was just him having a confusing conversation with himself, it was easier for him to repost it somewhere else, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:12 AM

It was my thread, I asked SRS to close it because I had confused the Party Conference and Brexit #2 threads.

You're correct, SRS, I was trying to multi-task and got myself confused. Deleting the thread seemed the most straightforward (and least embarrassing for a tired old fella) way to deal with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:19 AM

We criticise the Mods often - sometimes, maybe most times - with justification. On this occasion, I f***ed up, SRS tried to fix my f***-up, but in the meantime I asked her to close the thread, which she kindly did.

No fault of the Mods, all my own doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:26 AM

So...back to Party Conferences. Here's what I tried to start my deleted thread with yesterday, also posted in the Brexit #2 thread and it concerns Brexit but, as it came in Bozo the Blond Buffoon's speech at the Tory conference, I think it's appropriate to post it, and comment on it, here...

"It would mean that UK business and industry – the entire UK economy – would be exposed perpetually to regulations that might have been expressly designed, at the behest of foreign competitors, to do them down.
It would mean that whatever the EU came up with, banning the sale of eggs by the dozen, banning diabetics from driving, banning vaping, whatever – and all of those have been at least considered by Brussels in the last few years – all of this nonsense we would have to implement with no ability to change or resist.
This is not pragmatic, it is not a compromise. It is dangerous and unstable – politically and economically.
My fellow Conservatives, this is not democracy. This is not what we voted for. This is an outrage."

The best way to deal with 'Whatever the EU comes up with' would be by Remaing in the EU, and being part of the discussion process (not forgetting that the UK is in the exalted position of being one of only nine member-states who have the power of veto). That's what a proper, mature nation should and would do - not throw a hissyfit, grab the ball, and run home with it because they couldn't get their own way all the time.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 05:33 AM

Tell that to the fishing communities. They know how biddable the EU are.

I remember being in Looe one weekend when the banks foreclosed on the whole fishing fleet. Every single boat in the harbour , and that was a tragedy repeated the entire length of the English coast.

In England we are essentially a country where we like people to have a go, and traditionally encourage enterprise. Thatcher pretended to be anti-Europe, but she used the EU regulations to stop subsidies and close down loads of other industries, to anihilate the union/Labour power base.

I'm sorry to disagree with you John, but I voted against membership in 1974, and I have seen nothing to change my mind.

I've been wrong about things before. I thought we should be in the Euro. I think Brexit will never happen in any meaningful sense, not in the way that I would like, if that's any sort of help.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: DMcG
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 07:25 AM

It is a bit depressing that May has decided 'low skill' and 'high skill' is determined by salary earned. Which it most clearly isn't. A ballet dancer in the corps is likely to be earning well below the threshold despite a lifetime's training; an entry level broker with no experience at all could be above the wage boundary.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 07:27 AM

If they mean banning vaping in public, I would support that.

And, Big Al, why you blame the EU for the actions of UK banks I cannot imagine.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 08:04 AM

"And, Big Al, why you blame the EU for the actions of UK banks I cannot imagine."

And for the actions, and inactions, of British politicians, such as Thatcher? If she 'used EU regulations to stop subsidies and close down loads of other industries, to annihilate the union/Labour power base', that is surely an indictment of Thatcher, not of the EU?

Did the leaders of Germany or France use those same regulations to 'stop subsidies and close down loads of other industries, to annihilate the union/Labour power base'? Of course not. So why blame the EU for the effects of the policies and decisions of our own politicians - presumably because you see it as an easy target?

You come over as a very unhappy and bitter man, Al. I can only guess at the reasons for that, and I can only suggest that you try to move beyond your bitterness, analyse the Brexiteer propaganda you've so obviously fallen for, and put the blame for the ills that have befallen the United Kingdom over the past fifty years firmly where it belongs - on our own, at best incompetent, at worst dishonest, politicians - the very same politicians you voted to hand complete control to, and the cadre of immensely wealthy ex-pats and media-moguls who control them.

'Take Back Control'? What a joke - you've chosen to give it away to the cheats and crooks who landed us in the mess we're in.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 12:22 PM

Well that will be up to us whether we hand control to the crooks.
We usually do.

At least they will be our crooks - answerable to a British electorate.

Was Thatcher getting a kickback from Fiat and Renault whose cars were quite as shitty as the English product - possibly even worse. Well actually in the case of Fiar definitely much worse.

But mysteriously their car companies survived.

I don't think I'm bitter. At least not til it comes to the people who think throwing ourselves on the tender mercies of the EU is the direction we need.

I think there's a measure of indfference to the way the EU has been used to sandbag English working class communities - places with no great tradition of an educated working class - that sticks in my craw.

I think there is stuff we can do. I see Brexit as a counsel of hope and belief in the future. You see the opposite.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 12:29 PM

May I point out that this is the party conference thread and that there is a perfectly good brexit thread to discuss that topic.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 12:48 PM

Sandbagging like making Erasmus studentships available to working class kids from areas with no great tradition of an educated working class.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:11 PM

Al clearly never endured an Austin Maestro...but I'm not bitter...

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:28 PM

well what do you think about the party conferences Dave?

I take your point. The Brexit thing is not worth discussion, by us. We won't affect whatever happens.

I think May's comments about Corbyn with respect to the anti semitic thing was quite distasteful. Corbyn has tried hard in his speech to allay Jewish fears.

Corbyn seems vulnerable on the subject - mainly because of the wild remarks of his followers. Its so redolent of the moral certainty, of the rightness ofthe Communist party's backing for Stalin in the 1930's, Kruschev at time of Hungary, Ho Chi Minh - bully boys all. I can remember my Dad assuring me that the poor sod Vietnamese boat people were all criminals - even the kids. That denial when there is obvious moral ambiguity

Its that sort of certainty. Its repellent, and it could cost Labour dearly.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 01:31 PM

Dave, my fault. I introduced the post with which I started my now deleted thread - that was a comment on Bozo's speech at the Conference yesterday. So, strictly speaking, it is Conference-related.

But, I'm leaving it on this thread AFAIC - Al and I will never agree, and it's pointless arguing with someone whose mind is unchangeable.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:08 PM

For a socialist you have the stragest idea of a BULLY BOY Al
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 02:52 PM

yeh    all right....the boat people were desperate criminals, even the kids. Dubcek was in the pay of the USA. etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 03:12 PM

The boat peole were refugees who disn't like the system that took over after the mudrerous Yanks were driven out - many of them had fought on their side
Ther was never any question of them being "bullied" out - they chose to go.
If you are going to use the term "bully" you need to understand it
The real bummies were those who used chemicals and burning petrol on peasants - including the child in the picture
"Dubcek"
Never realised the Viet-Cong made it as far as Czechoslovakia
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 03:13 PM

Bullies of course, but bummies sound just as good
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 04:02 PM

you say bummies and I say bullies....

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 04:10 PM

You say tomato and I say Ragu...

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: David Carter (UK)
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 04:12 PM

Dubcek - unlikely, Havel - almost certainly. Saakashvili - absolutely certainly. The CIA have their stooges in high places in ex-communist states. But I have never heard Corbyn's view on any of these issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 05:24 PM

I'd describe myself a very far left socialist. Probably a long way to the left of everyone here.

But I'd qualify that by saying I can't deny my education.

One of my favourite writers was Christopher Isherwood, and Isherwood's earliest collaborator was the orthodox Marxist Edward Upward.

Upward's account of being a Marxist in the 30's, 40's and 1950's - I always found quite moving as his sincere adherence to the party line led to his alienation from his colleagues and neighbours.

I've gotten increasingly uneasy about the 'couldn't give a stuff about anyone who disagrees' attitude of the Momentum gang, particularly the abuse and villification of politicians working in the same democratic system, frankly its more than a bit like Trump's demolition of the Clinton campaign.

Who knows -perhaps it will work. Like Thatcher's dirty tricks campaign did. Perhaps cometh the hour, cometh the man. And this is what the age calls for.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: robomatic
Date: 03 Oct 18 - 10:26 PM

Wow JC, your interpretation of history according to your ideologies knows no sanity, even in Vietnam!

The 'boat people' were primarily ethnic Chinese Vietnamese. The 'chose to go' motif is rank obscenity you should be ashamed to write, but like the Current Occupant (Trump) you know no shame. The 'boat people' were robbed, raped and killed, a 70s pre-figuration of the Syrian and African refugees who have taken to the sea in current times. Yeah, they 'chose to go'. In a pig's eye.

It was good old fashioned racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: peteglasgow
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 09:50 AM

i visited a refugee camp on hayling island (in late '70s?) where a friend was working with vietnamese boat people. he's still in touch with a couple of families and is a 'godparent' to a woman now in paris. i still have a green vest - basketball shirt- from that place. i'm sure it's not relevant - just a distant memory

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 10:52 AM

"The 'boat people' were primarily ethnic Chinese Vietnamese. The 'chose to go' motif is rank obscenity you should be ashamed to write,"
I'm sure you have a g'o' boy excuse for why they left
After a war of that sort, the losing side usually does a runner
There were no purges - after over a quarter of a century of war , - 14 years of which were waged by the g'ol' Us of A with their B52s, ther napalm and their Agent Orange (which even wiped out the pilots who dropped the filth) the Vietnamese has neither the time nor energy left to turn on those who lost the war - though it would heve been understandable (not acceptable) if they had - those who could afford to paid to leave, the rest stayed
HOW THE WAR ENDED - if you have an alternative account, feel free to offer it.

Hoew a Yank can suggest atrocities towards the losing side is beyond belief
The Vietnam war was a massive unpunished war crime - unpunished because the perpetrators were too powerful to be brought to book
The worlds most powerful and oppressive country against largely untrained volunteers - brom the bombers with theeir chemical weapons - right through to the GIs in Saigon who payed to see Vietnamese girls fucked by animals
Even back home, the KENT STATE SLAUGHTER of student protestors
All this was compounded byty your threat to BOMB THEM BACK INTO THE STONEAGE

The two warmest visions I have of politics is of the staff of the Saigon Embassy being airlifted from the roof and of Thatcher leaving Downing Street in tears
You and yours should hang your head in shame - you never have and you never will
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 10:52 AM

"The 'boat people' were primarily ethnic Chinese Vietnamese. The 'chose to go' motif is rank obscenity you should be ashamed to write,"
I'm sure you have a g'o' boy excuse for why they left
After a war of that sort, the losing side usually does a runner
There were no purges - after over a quarter of a century of war , - 14 years of which were waged by the g'ol' Us of A with their B52s, ther napalm and their Agent Orange (which even wiped out the pilots who dropped the filth) the Vietnamese has neither the time nor energy left to turn on those who lost the war - though it would heve been understandable (not acceptable) if they had - those who could afford to paid to leave, the rest stayed
HOW THE WAR ENDED - if you have an alternative account, feel free to offer it.

Hoew a Yank can suggest atrocities towards the losing side is beyond belief
The Vietnam war was a massive unpunished war crime - unpunished because the perpetrators were too powerful to be brought to book
The worlds most powerful and oppressive country against largely untrained volunteers - brom the bombers with theeir chemical weapons - right through to the GIs in Saigon who payed to see Vietnamese girls fucked by animals
Even back home, the KENT STATE SLAUGHTER of student protestors
All this was compounded byty your threat to BOMB THEM BACK INTO THE STONEAGE

The two warmest visions I have of politics is of the staff of the Saigon Embassy being airlifted from the roof and of Thatcher leaving Downing Street in tears
You and yours should hang your head in shame - you never have and you never will
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:09 PM

I'd describe myself a very far left socialist. Probably a long way to the left of everyone here.

How on earth can you say that, Al. You have as much idea of my politics as I have about your sex life.

Which is not very much in case you wondered...

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:23 PM

Just as an aside Dave .......... I have absolutely NO idea of Al's sex life .............. nor do I want one.

Sorry for the thread drift, right, back to the conferences.

Is it my imagination or has there been VERY little coverage of the Conservative Party conference in the press............

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:28 PM

Quite right Dave, but I 've been listening to the 'paint by numbers' attitudes to racism, communism, ocracracies, and isms and the like,
all my life.
I grew up with it. The sheer indifference to reality and unworldliness of it all.

I know I'm bloody sight further to the left than any of that. I suppose I know by how bloody isolated I feel. Artistically, socially...every which way.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:34 PM

What it has to do with conference time.....well I feel very little I can identify with.



Dunno about very little coverage of our mates, the tories. It was the lead story on my tv news. And all the discussion programmes were all about them.

were you expecting the interviewer to grab Boris and call him a lying bastard? Only Trump gets away with that.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Raggytash
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 01:58 PM

That's just it Al, yes the TV has covered it quite extensively as you would expect but the press has, to my mind, been very quite about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 04:13 PM

I nearly threw up when May came on stage to 'Dancing Queen'. More like prancing has-been.

Subject: RE: BS: Conferences + 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Oct 18 - 04:48 PM

We'll see - if she see's off Corbyn, she'll be everyone's sweetheart. Remainers, Leavers..... tories of every kind. And don't forget - she's got the newspapers, most of the tv media on her side...

Doesn't really feel like slam dunk yet, does it?