BS: Lie Lack Tree

Subject: BS: Lie Lack Wine
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 07:05 AM

I stumbled on this on youtube as a follow up from Elkie Brooks. Absolutely nothing against Miley Cyrus' singing here except how hard "Lilac" is pronounced. I don't know how to suggest it UK wise butit's softer and more merged than Lie Lack

Is that the usual US pronunciation?

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 11:22 AM

I wouldn't have noticed her pronunciation. It's within norms here, and there's probably no one "usual US pronunciation".

I say it sort of like lie lock, or lie luck, or some combination of lock and luck. I AM wondering how the hell one makes wine from flowers, but it sounds pretty.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 11:52 AM

Interesting performance. I like it much better than her usual style.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 11:54 AM

I agree Jon. In UK that would sound very strange. We don't pronounce it 'lie lack'. The second vowel is a shwa (written as an upside-down e) as heard in the word 'the'.

The English make wine from elder flowers, dandelions, cowslips - in fact quite a few flowers. Wash them, boil them up, cool down, add sugar and yeast and allow to ferment.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 12:13 PM

We make wine from elder berries (the flowers are tiny), but I've had dandelion wine before, so the concept isn't seeming so weird now. I think I was trying to convey the sound of a shwa. (Wouldn't that be a good title for something? "The Sound of Shwa")

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 12:34 PM

Elder flowers are individually tiny, but we cut the entire clumps of flowers off the tree (they're about the size of a tea-plate) and don't separate them.
The Sound of Shwa could be a narrow strait between two islands in some exotic part of the world. Cruise ships would visit and tourists take lots of photos as they passed through!

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Charmion
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 03:27 PM

In Ontario, that flowering bush is usually called a "lie-lock", and the two syllables of the word receive equal stress. I have always found this awkward and a bit ugly, as I learned to say "lilac" in the English way, with a schwa in the second syllable and the stress on the first.

That ol' mid-Atlantic accent ...

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Oct 18 - 04:17 PM

lilac lie lack Rochester NY has a lilac festival

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 06:23 AM

Thanks for the info.

Joe, while familiar with the name Miley Cyrus, I don't know her other work or "usual style".

On elder. You can make a "red" elderberry wine and a "white" elderflower wine but Pip's favourite is to make an elderflower cordial. As with the blackcurrent cordial, when she does make it, she makes a few litres of the concentrate and stores it in the freezer.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Thompson
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 07:09 AM

In Ireland we don't schwa it, and do pronounce the ck.

Apparently lilac wine is a thing!

Why is this in the non-music section?

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jos
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 07:12 AM

There is also elderflower champagne (which I believe the French object to, so maybe we should spell it 'sh-sh-ampagne').
Dissolve sugar and lemon juice in a large bowl of water. Float three or four fresh elderflower sprays (the plate-sized ones) in it for several hours on a sunny summer afternoon, strain and bottle in STRONG bottles. The natural yeast on the flowers will cause fermentation and produce a pleasant fizzy drink in a matter of weeks.

(Some recipes tell you to add camden tablets to kill the natural yeast, and then add a commercially produced wine yeast. They are missing the point.)

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 07:20 AM

I put it down here as I felt it was a more general pronunciation question that was triggered by hearing a song rather than one about the (non folk) song. Besides that, we have gone into wine (and cordial making).

I'm not sure well ever get everything 100% in the right place and we will dissagree but my view is remains it is BS...

But yep. I only knew the Elkie Brooks version which was quit popular in the UK late 70s. The song itself dates back to 1950 apparently and has been recorded by a few. See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lilac_Wine

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jos
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 08:14 AM

I don't know how I missed the Elkie Brooks version, but I first heard it by Jeff Buckley - that version will always be my favourite.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 08:38 AM

Interesting Jos (both comments). Lots of elder round here so might give the champagne one a go next year. Most bottles her are the PET 2L ones but I think there are some "Grolsch" style bottles around. I take it they would meet your "strong".

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 08:38 AM

(1L)

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 08:52 AM

Pip's just found her cordial recipe if it's of any interest.

10 large flower heads
3 lemons (sliced)
2 1/2 (Imperial!!! ;-)) pints boiling water
3 ounces citric acid
3 lbs sugar

Dissolve sugar in boiling water and add other ingredients
Cover and leave in a cool place for 5 days
Stir once a day
Strain into bottles.

It winds up as something you dilute to taste.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jos
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 11:22 AM

Yes, bottles designed to withstand the pressure of fizzy drinks.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 01:22 PM

Even more OT and on a re read. Charmion, which side of the Atlantic are you from originally?

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: meself
Date: 20 Oct 18 - 07:06 PM

My Canadian pronunciation is "LIE-lock" - emphasis on first syllable. Don't know if that more southwestern Ontario or Maritimes.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Charmion
Date: 23 Oct 18 - 08:43 AM

Jon Freeman, I am a native-born Canadian raised in the Ottawa Valley of eastern Ontario. My father was born in Montreal, also of native-born parents, but grew up in England, where his father moved the family in 1924. Dad returned to Canada in 1946 and spoke with a marked mid-Atlantic accent to the end of his days. English people thought he was Irish, and Canadians assumed he was a Brit ex-pat.

My mother was also born in Montreal. She was raised in Ottawa by her mother, an English immigrant with a ferocious drive to clamber into the haute bourgeoisie. In those days, Canadians thought an English accent was classy, so the Irish-influenced Carleton County speech was forbidden.

I come by my mid-Atlantic vowels honestly.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 23 Oct 18 - 10:44 AM

Tommy Gilfellon pronounces it ' lee lack ' in his version of ' Cushie Butterfield '

Dave H

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 24 Oct 18 - 11:47 AM

Interesting Charmion. Thanks for the info. My own accent is English but a bit mixed up. Shropshire, N Wales and Kent in childhood.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Helen
Date: 24 Oct 18 - 04:42 PM

Well that's the first time I have seen Miley Cyrus do a straight up version of any song, minus the twerking and tweeking. (Not an MC fan, I'm afraid.)

Nina Simone version

There is an elderflower tree in full flower a few houses away from here. I looked at it a couple of days ago and thought, I could beg some flowers and make wine. I've never made wine but hubby has.

Here in Oz, I have only heard the pronunciation lie-lack, same emphasis on both syllables.

Thanks for the "shwa" word. I was trying to describe that sound in another thread, and probably failing miserably.

Shwa-mpagne, perhaps?

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Gallus Moll
Date: 24 Oct 18 - 08:47 PM

I used to make various 'hedgerow' wines - mainly bramble, elderflower, elderberry. I once made elderflower (ch/sh)ampagne and had to drink a lot of Grolsch to get the whatever-you-call-the-bottle-tops! The fizzy wine was amazing...once we discovered that you had to keep it in the fridge for a couple of days before opening extremely carefully!!!
Re elderflowers - I always use a fork to separate the florets from the stems.
The scent of the wine is lovely!

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 04:18 AM

Many years ago I lived in another part of Norfolk where there was a set-aside field absolutely covered in dandelions.

I took a basket and picked hundreds of the flowers, and laboriously made dandelion wine.

It was absolutely ghastly - smelt and tasted like cat's piss. (Well, how I imagine cat's piss to taste - I haven't actually tried it!) It all got poured down the loo. :(

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 10:06 AM

It is surprising how many different flowers and shrubs go by the name of May or May-flower. I have already said that in some parts of Devonshire this name is given to Laurustinus, and in the same county the Lilac is also called May. Other names I must mention presently, but now let us look at this flower called Lilac. The name was introduced with the plant from Persia, by way of Turkey I and Spain, but that which was so named at first was the indigo- plant. Our Continental neighbours also employ the same name when speaking of this tree (Syringa). In country places in England the general pronunciation of the word is Laylock; but I find two or three very curious names in use in various parts of Devonshire, ' quite independent of the mere provincialisms. A lady asked me some time since if I had ever heard any flower spoken of under the name of Ducks’-bills. I replied that I had not, but that in Sussex we used to grow a kind of Apple which bore that name. She replied that she had for many years heard the peasantry of South Devon speak of the Lilac as Ducks’-bills. I was mentioning this to a friend from the neighbourhood of South Moulton, and he informed me that in that locality he had always known Lilac blossoms called Oysters.

In parts of Devon and Cornwall, the lilac is known as “Prince’s Feathers”
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 10:08 AM

Sorry,
That came from Rev Hilderick Friend's 'Flowers and Flower Lore' (1886)
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Helen
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 03:30 PM

I don't know whether I have ever seen a lilac tree around here - south-east, coastal Australia. In fact, I can't remember ever seeing one in my travels to different parts of Oz.

I would have definitely noticed it if it was in flower because I have an identified/notifiable addiction to anything purple. I have had to be dragged away on numerous occasions from items I don't need but wanted, just because of the colour. Most notably, a V8 car which was a beautiful shade of purple with a shimmer. Hubby, as he is forcibly removing me from the car showroom, was saying, "You don't need a V8!".

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 04:02 PM

Ah Helen I planned our present garden around the colours blue/purple, yellow and white. (No pink or red) We have Buddleia to attract butterflies, Campanula, white Foxgloves, Hypericum, Marguerites, and blue Nigella to name but a few.
We had lilacs in our last garden, but the flowers were so short-lived and the foliage isn't terribly interesting.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Helen
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 04:37 PM

Hi Senoufou, my garden is based around the blue to purple to red part of the spectrum. I have a collection of beautiful geraniums and pelargoniums in pots on the verandah. Some are the most amazing maroon colour. I even remember to water them fairly regularly. The rest of the garden - not so much.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 05:21 PM

Sounds absolutely lovely, very jewel-like.

This summer was a horror for drought here. No rain for months. It was like living in Senegal!

It's always a good idea when planning a garden to have (and stick to) a colour scheme.
And structure (hard landscaping, shrubs, bushes and hedges which give a firm backdrop to the gentler forms of the flowers)

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Helen
Date: 25 Oct 18 - 07:06 PM

Don't let your imagination run away with you, Senoufou. I told you we are not good gardeners. The weeds and other "interesting plants" are running neck and neck with the proper garden plants. It has a lot of potential, but needs some solid work. When I retire after Easter next year I will have no excuses, I guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 26 Oct 18 - 05:53 AM

Ha Helen! It isn't me that does the donkey work nowadays in the garden!
Our lovely neighbour helped my husband only last week to do a massive tidy-up and hedge-cutting in our garden. The weeds were nobody's business, and they toiled away for hours.

I wondered if the Garden Waste wheelie bin would be big enough, but Robert the neighbour actually got inside it and did a sort of dance, compressing the stuff down, so that it all went in.

It weighed a ton, but the bin men got it onto the lifting mechanism on the bin lorry and it was successfully emptied.

I was worried to see some dreaded bindweed artistically draped around our little pear tree. We used to call the white flowers 'Granny pops out of bed', because when you squeeze the bottom, the flower shoots out. It was pulled up and disposed of.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 04:26 AM

To get back to pronunciation, I was watching an American programme on TV last night called 'Botched' where two cosmetic surgeons in LA deal with various deformities or operations-gone-wrong.

They were examining a lady's bottom (she'd had huge implants put in and they'd caused no end of problems).
They kept talking about her buttocks, but they seemed to be pronouncing it 'butt-ox'. Or 'butt-tocks', with an equal amount of stress on both syllables.
A similar pair of surgeons in Atlanta use the same pronunciation in 'Atlanta Plastic', so I'm assuming it's common to many areas of USA.

Now my old friend the shwa would come into play here in UK, as we say 'BUTT-uks' with the emphasis firmly on the first syllable.

I've been thinking of other similar examples where the shwa is key. Here are a few:-

Tunnocks tea cakes
hillock
mattock
pillock

But these don't use the shwa:-

cardiac
muntjac
coeliac
almanac

How curious that 'lilac' is different!

(I absolutely love Phonetics!)

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jos
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 04:56 AM

It always annoys me when people pronounce Avon as Eyvonne instead of as 'Avun' (with a shwa). I blame the Avon Lady.

I also get annoyed when people pronounce plant names such as Saint John's wort as if wort rhymed with 'bought' instead of with 'dirt' - I always imagine poor Saint John with a huge wart on his nose.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 05:58 AM

Yes Jos, I too hate 'Stratford-Upon-Ay-vonne'.
As you say, it's 'Stratford-Upon-Ayvun' Good old shwa!

St John may have had a wart on his nose though. I'm always very frustrated when reading the Bible. It doesn't tell us anything about what the people therein looked like. He may have had sticking-out ears, or a cleft chin like Kirk Douglas. Or bandy legs. Most irritating that we shall never know.
I suppose we have to be thankful that we're told Esau was 'ginger and very hairy'. That's something to go on.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Helen
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 03:11 PM

I have two words to say about Brit pronunciation:

Cholmondeley Featherstonehaugh

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 03:47 PM

Haha! Try pronouncing Wymondham and Costessey, both towns in Norfolk.

(Windum, Cossy)

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Helen
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 05:39 PM

The surname of my Mum's best friend was Fenwick, which we pronounced as spelled, both syllables of equal length and emphasis. I was surprised to hear on a Brit tv show that the name was pronounced Fennick, with emphasis on the first syllable. I guess I should not have been surprised. Anyone in Oz with the name Warwick that I have known about have always pronounced it Worr-ick - the 'o' sound like in 'pot', with emphasis on the first syllable. When I first saw Dionne Warwick's name written down, and before realising that the name 'Worrick' was the same spelling, I thought her surname was pronounced War-wick, same emphasis on both syllables.

But then again, Oz place names can be misleading. Wagga Wagga, is not pronounced like 'wag' but like 'wog', and in my experience, is always said with emphasis on the first word, and always with a higher inflection on the first word and a lower inflection on the second - like 'teeter-totter' = tee- [upward inflection] ter to- [downward inflection] tter, or Funiculi Funicula.

A local suburb near here is called Bolwarra. We know when someone is not local when they pronounce it 'Boll-war-uh' with equal emphasis on "Boll' & 'war' and not Bullworra, i.e. 'o' as in 'pot' with emphasis on 'worr'.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 06:03 PM

I never knew that Wagga Wagga is pronounced Wogga Wogga! That could cause problems here, as 'wog' is a very bad word!

I've just been watching a Police programme, and the Welsh Police are called Heddlu. They have it written on the backs of their uniforms. It's apparently pronounced Heth-lee.

I've heard Dionne Warwick's name spoken as 'War-wick' by American folk.
I love to hear Americans trying to say "Worcestershire sauce" They usually say 'shire' in full when it comes at the end of our counties. (Gloucestershire, Leicestershire, Cambridgeshire etc)

It should be said with a shwa. (Woo-stuh-shuh, Less-tuh-shuh. Gloss-tuh-shuh etc)

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Helen
Date: 27 Oct 18 - 07:06 PM

Yes, wog is a bad word here too, but when we say Wagga Wagga we are probably seeing the spelling as we say it, if that makes sense.

There was a very funny tv show called Acropolis Now, which was a spin off from a play called Wogs Out of Work. All of the cast were Australians with non-Anglo-Celtic background. It was one of the funniest shows on tv. Most Aussies of all kinds love to laugh at ourselves, so the word 'wog' in that show was a turnaround on all the negative connotations.

I've seen that Worcestershire sauce moment a few times on American tv. When I see the distinctive bottle in the hands of a cook or chef I wait for that moment when they try to pronounce it. Although, I think the common pronunciation in Oz is Woo-stuh-sheer, Less-tuh-sheer etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 03:25 AM

Hee hee 'Wogs Out Of Work'!! Oh dear! Husband is laughing at that. He sees no harm in a bit of fun, and finds racist stuff very amusing, he's never offended.

He makes my toes curl when we're out, as when he's wandered off to look at something in a shop, he bounces up saying, "Your NIGGER is here darling!" just to shock people. I've told him NOT to do that, but he's the very devil.

The PC brigade are well-meaning, but seemed to have made everything very strait-laced and humourless.

My sister lives in Perthshire, and on reflection I think they pronounce it 'Pairth-sheer' and not Perth-shuh.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 03:34 AM

"The PC brigade are well-meaning, but seemed to have made everything very strait-laced and humourless."
I seem to remember where you live is not prone to the danger of non-indigenous people having your homes scrawled with such language or even having petrol poured through your letterboxes - lucky old you Sen
I have lived in sever places that were
Sorry - I'm happy to be one of the PC Brigade
There really isn't anything funny about language that encourages this
THIS

Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 03:45 AM

I know what you mean Jim, and I agree. I've never been in favour of racism (which should be obvious given my husband and in-laws!).

But there's a difference between that and light-hearted humour directed at all and sundry. It tends to discharge animosity and put people at ease.

On 'Mock The Week' (TV comedy programme) Romesh Ranganathan is always poking fun at himself (he says he resembles a black Rolf Harris!)

As you say, where I live we have never ever encountered the slightest hint of racism. In fact, people adore my husband and I'm so proud of him.
But it must indeed be terrible to live in racist areas. We're rather cocooned here in Norfolk.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 04:58 AM

Sorry Sen - all recist language is dangerous in the present situation
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Charmion
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 12:56 PM

In my family, the sauce is pronounced Wuhstuh, with no Sheer on the end. Other Canadians call it War-ster-shire, or "that brown sauce in the bottle with the orange label".

Senoufou, if I ever hop the Herring Pond again, I want to come to Norfolk and meet you and your lovely husband. He sounds like a laugh a minute -- and a champion at taking the piss. We can all sit in the pub and talk in French about cats.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 01:13 PM

Just had to check what a Lee and Perrins had on it. It is "Worstershire" but everyone would say "wustah". Oddly enough, we were talking about the stuff the other day and were reminded how we liked Mushroom ketchup - looks like Burgess has gone btw - not that I think there is a pronounciation issue there.

Sen Where I lived it would have been heddlu gogledd cymru (North Wales Police). I think dd is softer than th.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Helen
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 01:37 PM

The funniest culturally inspired tv show I know was Goodness Gracious Me.

I still laugh when I see those actors, even when I see them acting in serious shows. Sanjeev Bhaskar and Meera Syal were my faves. When I saw Sanjeev playing a sort-of serious role in Dr Who I whooped out loud. And recently Meera was in a drama series called The Split.

There is also a short comedy series on Oz tv called Black Comedy. The last series finished last week.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 02:01 PM

I liked 'Love Thy Neighbour' in the Seventies, TV programme about a very well-educated black man who moved next door to a very dismayed rather racist white man.
The black chap had a cut-glass accent, and they gradually became great friends.

Charmion, yes, he's a very funny chap. He and his immediate boss Chris have great larks while cleaning at the school. Chris calls out down the corridor, "I love you darling!" and he replies, "I love you too sweetie!" The other cleaners fall about laughing.

One of them often wallops him with a rolled-up tea towel like Mrs Brown. I sometimes wonder how any cleaning actually gets done at that school!

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 02:49 PM

Funny Love Thy Neighbour comes up. It wouldn't get shown now for its stereotyping. There was a nurse who did my back. She was Chinese and born HK. In a conversation about old TV programs, she said she found that one hilarious, yet the portrayal of a Chinese character in that series was a red hot communist always dipping into Mao's Little Red book.

That's not to say Jim's concerns are not real though...

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 02:53 PM

~(opps, I'm confusing 2 programmes, Mind Your Language and Love Thy Neighbour...)

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Senoufou
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 02:58 PM

You're right Jon, Jim has a good point. It doesn't do to be too relaxed about anything which might be construed as racist nowadays. And I wouldn't for the world insult anyone or cause them pain for any reason, let alone their race.
Being 'PC' is better than having prejudices and upsetting folk, even unintentionally.

I had a lovely Chinese friend at Edinburgh University called Betty Ko. She too was from HK, but her family had moved there from Canton.
She taught me Cantonese, and introduced me to Chinese food, which I still like very much today.

Subject: RE: BS: Lie Lack Tree
From: Jos
Date: 28 Oct 18 - 04:05 PM

I've always pronounced Worcestershire sauce as if it was somehow connected with Bertie Wooster. In fact, until recently I thought it was Worcester sauce - I had no idea a whole county was involved. I'd obviously never bothered to read the label.