BS: keyless cars - a believable scam

Subject: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Nov 18 - 04:00 AM

So they can't steal your car when you have the transponder 100** yards away?

Imagine: two guys with radio transmitter/receivers and a bit of technological software, one standing next to you in the queue, the other next to your car. That distance that protects your car is now non-existent. And all they steal is that 100** yards.

This is far more prescient than wild speculation from an electronic engineer such as me, but I see it as eminently feasible. And it came from a website suggesting you can thwart the scammer by wrapping the "key" in tin foil, or put a tin box. Particularly when in strange territory.

AS I envisage it, the only protection the car "lock" designers can design in is any small delay that this scheme might introduce. And I don't see that as any barrier to the scamming gizmo.

As soon as my credit card issuer gave me no alternative to a contactless card, I bought a pocket for the thing. The miscreants are maybe not geniuses but they are street smart.

**other distance are available.

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Jos
Date: 11 Nov 18 - 05:07 AM

Both Lloyds and Santander will provide a non-contactless card if you insist, though the first time I tried it with Santander they made a big fuss and then sent me a cash card of the kind given to people who are not reliable enough to be given credit (childreen/bankrupts).
My complaint elicited a proper card and some compensation for my time and trouble. The next time, a proper card was supplied without argument.
If your bank won't comply, you could always change banks.

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 11 Nov 18 - 11:00 AM

There's a comparable problem in U.S. neighborhoods with electric garage door openers; thieves with devices that can capture your signal when you use it, or that will cycle through a bunch of frequencies until they hit the one they want. It often times provides access into the house (whether the door between wasn't locked, or it can be kicked open out of sight from the road.)

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Mr Red
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 02:45 AM

My credit card company refused to offer a non-contactless card.

There are ways to convert. Basically you can drill through** the aerial which can be located at the edges by shining a light through the card. I tried the light wheeze and as long as you can avoid shining round the edge you can see a shadow.

A friend who banks with Santander insisted a non-contactless card and she was fobbed-off. They picked the wrong person that time too.

**nothing to big - 1mm diameter should be enough.

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 10:52 AM

I have no idea what you just said. If it's a card with a chip transponder thing and it has an antenna, what does light have to do with it? If the chip can't work then will they let you slide it through a card reader?

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 12:00 PM

Barclays appear to have a good grip on the subject:
How to use Barclaycard contactless payment

This little symbol )))) ? means you can make fast, easy and secure payments of £30 and under in seconds. Wherever you see it you can touch your Barclaycard on a payment reader and you’re done, just like that. There's no need to fumble with cash, or enter a PIN.

So to use a 'contactless' card, you 'touch it' on the card reader. Either 'contactless' or 'touch' clearly has a new meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: meself
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 12:04 PM

I just put all that stuff under my tinfoil hat when I'm out and about.

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: EBarnacle
Date: 12 Nov 18 - 01:22 PM

I was recently given a keyless loaner when my car was in for service. For the heck of it, I tested the range of the transceiver and found that if the clicker was more than about 100' from the car, it stopped running. I still don't trust the system's security.

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: BobL
Date: 13 Nov 18 - 02:55 AM

SRS, the antenna takes the form of a printed wire that goes round near the edge of the card. By shining a strong light through the card, you can find the antenna by its shadow, then drill a tiny hole through it to disable the "contactless" function.

Nigel, I believe "contactless" in this context means the electrical contacts.

Incidentally it takes more to spoof a transponder signal than just recording and replaying its radio transmission - that might have been possible in the very early days, but the manufacturers soon got wiser. Although I admit I have no idea which spoof-proofing method, out of several possibilities, they use. TBH I preferred the old infra-red remote, as it had to "see" the actual receiver unit in order to work - a bit more secure if you'd lost your keys in the car park.

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Nov 18 - 03:11 AM

what does light have to do with it?
clue in the post
the aerial which can be located at the edges by shining a light through the card

I didn't get around to drilling it through, but I did cut up a card (like shredding paper with my data on) and you can see the little dot about 1 or 2 mm from the edge (all round).

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Mr Red
Date: 13 Nov 18 - 03:41 AM

Incidentally it takes more to spoof a transponder signal than just recording and replaying its radio transmission

the OP was to warn that the distance from car to "keyless" key, is immaterial if you interpose a radio transmitter between sender and receiver (they would both send and receive in a handshake dance).

Recording has no real affect because long before "keyless" the design was send only - which was a psuedo-random binary sequence unique (ish) to the car/fob. By sending a small set of numbers in a possible sequence of maybe several mega million, it could be decoded as kosher, regardless of how many duff attempts had not been seen by the car.

My GF's newish car has a key hidden in the fob, in case the battery runs out! How's that for "keyless"?

and even before "keyless" the scam was to "jam" the locking signal because people often point the fob behind their back and assume the car has locked. Then when the owner is safely in bed (or on shopping therapy) they can open the door and remove any booty.

As I said, the miscreants are not geniuses - they are street smart. They rely on street dumbness elsewhere. Put that tin foil hat in yer pocket - it has its uses - PAL!

Subject: RE: BS: keyless cars - a believable scam
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 13 Nov 18 - 10:59 AM

Ah - complex sentence and no punctuation regarding the aerial, drilling, and the light.

I didn't say record, I said capture, if the remark about not recording a signal was aimed at the garage door opener remark. Detecting and being able to repeat the signal electronically is what I was referring to, or having a device that runs through a bunch of frequencies or patterns and when one works, they're in.

For a long time keypads have been in use instead of fobs or openers of various sorts. If I have to replace the opener in my garage at some point I'll probably go with a system that opens with both.