BS: If I were a remainer...

Subject: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 10:53 AM

I make no secret of my belief that we will be in the long term better off outside the EU.

However, if my beliefs were as strongly held as the remainers tell me theirs are, I am left wondering why they do not engage more fully with the political system - if they wish to change or reverse things,...

For example, there is only one party that is totally uncompromisigly pro-EU, and that is the Liberal Democrats. I see no sudden change in the LD's fortunes.

Instead they seem to be applauding a few halfwits with placards outside the Houses of Parliament.

Corbyn...god alone knows what he truly thinks, however he's got a plan that will be acceptable to Brussels we are told. In other words - that's Brexit in some form or another.

If you really belive what you've been saying you believe in - why not get behind the Liberrals instead of Jeremy.

As usual i will vote Labour - always do. not with much joy in my heart.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:02 AM

I always have been behind the Lib-Dems (the Liberals before that), I always voted for them in LEs and GEs, until they betrayed my trust and my vote in 2010 by aligning themselves with The Pig-Fucker and his disgusting Tory party.

It'll be a cold day in hell before I support them again.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:07 AM

But its the issue you care about BWM.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:08 AM

And BrexShit isn't, and shouldn't be, a party-political issue. The Praying Mantis, however, has made it thus by her policy of refusing to allow anyone from any of the other parties in to the process, so that she can follow the instructions of the small cadre of immensely-wealthy non-Dom tax-dodgers who have driven and controlled the Leave campaign from Day-One.

Had she put a cross-Party team together right back at the start, things might have been very different now, because she'd have everyone's buy-in. But that's not what the Tory Grandees wanted because their own personal wealth is far more important to them than the good of the nation.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:10 AM

you really think they're that bright...?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:13 AM

Depends who you mean by 'they'...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jack Campin
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:16 AM

The SNP is the major pro-EU party in the UK, and its stance has seen its membership overtake the Tories to become the second-largest party in the UK as a whole. Their dominance in Scottish politics is close to hegemonic and they may well be the only party with any Westminster seats in the next general election.

They really oughta open a branch in England. There must be more support there for their way of doing things than for Corbyn's weaseling evasiveness or the Liberals' total grovelling opportunism (remember that at one of the crucial votes in the Brexit process, one of them absented himself to speak at a rally of Christian homophobes and their leader simply went missing without ever offering an explanation). Sadiq Khan might be up for it.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:19 AM

Lifelong labour voter..
But where i now live, voting Labour is more futile than trying to define folk...

So I reluctantly tactical voted for Liberals until that unforgivable treacherous betrayal...

At least my vote for Labour is one more to encourage them...

..and anyway, liberals never win round here either.....

Maybe our combined vote could beat the tories for once, at last,
but can't see local liberals would ever vote labour for whatever prissy high minded reasons...???

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:26 AM

I am interested in why people think we, the UK, will be better off out of the EU.

I have asked the pro Brexiteers on this site on many, many, occasions how we will be better off outside the EU.

To date I have been met with a resounding silence (oxymoron I know)

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: DMcG
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:37 AM

I think part of the answer, Big Al, is that elections are about a wide range of issues. Brexit is important, and has a major effect on lots of other issues, but it is not the only important one. Even manifestos are not a statement of what a party will do, but more a description of an approach to life, which informs you how the party will react to unanticipated events: floods, financial crashes, terrorist attacks and on and on.

For the last 30 years or so, I have made a point of reading all the manifestos of all the parties listed on my ballot paper and try to judge which is closest to my desires and also taking into account past voting records of the candidates if known.

So voting on a single issue is not for me.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 11:41 AM

I could well pose the same question to you, Al. If you are so anti-Europe, why did you not vote for UKIP?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:03 PM

The LibDems have always been a bunch of pusillanimous, wet, expedient-minded Tories. It transpires that Steel knew all about Cyril Smith but kept quiet about it, and they threw their lot in, extremely undemocratically, with the real Tories in 2010, who took the suckers for a ride, ridiculing them with a fake referendum on the voting system and obliging them to overturn a solemn promise on tuition fees. And guess what, they didn't see it coming. Before that, they had opportunistically thrown their lot in with the charlatan SDP to keep Maggie in power for many more damaging years and they'd even tried it on with Labour in the seventies. That went well, didn't it? Libby-no-mates they are but they'll sell their souls to go for power at any price. No morals, no scruples and the leader before this one was a rabid anti-abortionist.The LibDem campaign round here in 2010 was all about "whatever else, vote LibDem in Cornwall to keep out the Tories at all costs." So we did, and they'd lied, and look where we are today. I'd rather hack off my family jewels with a rusty machete than vote LibDem, and the very thought of supporting them makes me want to throw up.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:05 PM

Or, if you like, I'll tell you what I really think...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:05 PM

Come on man, stop beating about the bush, spit it out, and say what you mean...!! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:10 PM

Steve, in my constituency, we have always had a Tory MP, but the Libs (and subsequently the Lib-Dems) have always had far greater support than Labour, so voting for them seemed the most likely way to unseat our 'orrible Tory. Sadly, it never worked.

And I'm in wholehearted agreement about the debacle of 2010. An unforgivable act of betrayal of those who voted for them. Never again.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 12:25 PM

I bit my lip, held my nose and voted LibDem SIX BLOODY TIMES here because it's a Tory-LibDem marginal with Labour nowhere in sight. But I was hoodwinked in 2010 and I vowed never to do tactical voting again.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:25 PM

As far as I can see from here the only thing that has changed in Parliamentary politics is the Labour is now making different promises
If they live up to them I'd walk over broken glass to get to the polls - if not THIS FELLER HAS IT RIGHT
Whatever the outcome of Brexit, after this now fully-admitted fiasco, it is doubtful if Parliament will ever win back the respect of the handful of people who once had it, leaving Britain with an extremely dangerous void which the rabid right will break its neck to fill
Couple this with an economy in crisis and a divided nation, the parallels with pre-war Germany are inescapable
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 01:59 PM

Couple this with an economy in crisis

I presume you mean France and Germany and Italy and............. and that should be plural,economies!

The total deficit so far this financial year (since last April) was £23.1bn - a sizeable £18bn fall compared with the same period last year.
The UK economy provided some unexpected positive news today as high street sales grew by more than anticipated and the public finances continued to outperform.
Figures from the Office for National Statistics suggest the economy may be expanding at a better rate than expected.

Someone been watching too much Podge and Rodge? Remainiac nonsense again

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:28 PM

Another thread fucked.
Cheers Al, at least you tried.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:32 PM

Wwell I don't want to get into the Brexit (good, or bad) debate.. I just think it would be good if we could contain the debate within democratic structures and take it out of the hands of abuse merchants.

I wouldn't vote for Farage.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 02:47 PM

"Another thread fucked. "
Only if you respond to the lower orders Baccie
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:18 PM

I make no secret that I believe Brexit is a Russian mission success and will continue to whittle down the eu.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:23 PM

Big Al,

Once again, 4 hours ago, I asked WHY people think the UK will be better off outside the EU.

Once again no-one has put forward a reasoned argument for the benefits to the UK if we were to leave the EU.

If there were OBVIOUS benefits to leaving the EU some of us might reconsider our position.

Despite having asked this question on dozens of occasions, no-one but no-one has even attempted to provide an answer.

Perhaps you could do the honours.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:34 PM

Raggytash. I don't want this thread to be about Brexit.

I would like to see the remainers run a well organised , information based campaign express ing their point of view.

I was at elijah Wolf's open mic about a couple of weeks ago.

Elijah said, I don't give a shit about Brexit. But I've never known an issue so socially divisive. Coming out as a Brexiteer seems to be like an invitation to attack you..

The debate is so ill informed, as to be non-existent. But one thing, I believe is that political institutions and the laws that protect them is the forum it belongs rather than the sloganeering street fighters.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:35 PM

Yes Steve my sister feels the same about the lib dems. Lives in the south west as well. The sense of betrayal is strong.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Raggytash
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 04:39 PM

Oh come Al, you open a thread entitled 'If I were a remainer ...' What do you expect.

I do notice that one again my question 'how will the UK benefit' has been studiously avoided.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 05:32 PM

I could only vote for LIb Dem if on all policy areas they adopted Labour Party policy to the letter. Voting for parties because of one single issue cannot then allow it to implement any other part of its manifesto without a plebicite that grants explicit consent.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 06:29 PM

I'll do almost anything to keep the Tories out. Tory MPs, along with every bugger that has ever voted Tory, have screwed the ordinary working people of this country for decades. Hate the Tories, know thine enemy and kick the bastards out! Kick out the Tories!

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 22 Mar 19 - 10:18 PM

Raggytash. I'm not a clever guy. Don't pretend to be. I've been insulted so much over brexit. That yes I avoid the conversations and arguments.

I get fed up with being called a fool by people who are obviously not all that smart. Told the economics of a very complicated subject are simple - by people I wouldn't trust to open a jar of jam.

I get fed up with both sides coming up with random facts obviously nicked from some partisan source.

The idea behind this thread was to suggest   maybe it would better to let the experts debate - at any rate take it away from the demagogues, off the streets.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:18 AM

Well Al, there's nothing to disagree with here... and it's a good indicator of why debate has become so inflamed over the past few years.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:33 AM

The US has declared that there will be no free trade agreement if Britain opts for a hard border
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:35 AM

Who cares, we are sick to death of it all.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 05:38 AM

Ah, the Theresa May Method of Communication - telling us what 'we' think or don't think.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 19 - 07:33 AM

Here's a perfect example of the depths some people - and it seems to be predominantly Right-Wingers - are prepared to stoop to. A remarkable young woman, the Leader of her nation, being threatened with murder because she upheld decency and humanity at a time of tragedy.

And you wonder why people are finding it more and more difficult to discuss issues civilly and rationally?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 03:20 AM

If i were a remainer...
I would sign the second referendum.
I would stop making remarks such as why did you not vote for ukip[i am sure denis skinner did note vote for ukip]

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Acorn4
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:08 AM

Why do so many of my Facebook friends seem to think there is something so incredibly left wing about the EU?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:15 AM

Shouldn't you be asking that question on FaceBook?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:33 AM

Dick, it really is simple. Al suggested that remainers should vote LibDem. A silly suggestion as it brings everything down to one issue. I demonstrated the absurdity of it by suggesting leavers, such as Al, should vote UKIP. You seem to have picked up on how silly my suggestion was without commenting on the absurdity of Al's opening premise.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:48 AM

no it is not silly, the liberal party is the most pro european , but owing to the uk voting system, they never get the seats that they proprtional to their votes should get. al has also made it clear he votes labour, als comment is not absurd, it is one that should be given consideration, al would not vote for ukip because he is not racist and probably opposesthe eu on the same grounds as denis skinner, these are also my objections to the EU, but because i live in ireland, i would now probably possibly, now vote remain, if i had a vote

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:52 AM

The reason that BrexShit is such an unmitigated disaster is because The Praying Mantis has steadfastly refused to make it a cross-party issue - until recently, when it became glaringly obvious even to an obstinate mutton-head like her that she had hit a brick wall due to her own obstinacy and mutton-headedness, she made no effort to construct a cross-party committee, or even ask the other parties for their input.

She has been following the strict instructions of the tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy, predominantly non-dom, tax-dodgers who have driven this entire debacle since well before the referendum - hence the inexplicable obstinacy and mutton-headedness, even when things got to such a pitch that even a blind, dumb, deaf lunatic could detect and understand the message.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:53 AM

Sorry about the underlining - fecking HTML! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:55 AM

Try again...

The reason that BrexShit is such an unmitigated disaster is because The Praying Mantis has steadfastly refused to make it a cross-party issue - until recently, when it became glaringly obvious even to an obstinate mutton-head like her that she had hit a brick wall due to her own obstinacy and mutton-headedness, she made no effort to construct a cross-party committee, or even ask the other parties for their input.

She has been following the strict instructions of the tiny cadre of immensely-wealthy, predominantly non-dom, tax-dodgers who have driven this entire debacle since well before the referendum - hence the inexplicable obstinacy and mutton-headedness, even when things got to such a pitch that even a blind, dumb, deaf lunatic could detect and understand the message.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 04:57 AM

Further more i suspect that this is the beginning of the end of the empire known as the eu
, a pity in lots of ways because it did offer some social democratic reforms, and i think for some considerable time, people in rural ireland are going to have a reduction in their living standards, because the country is agricultural and relies to a considerable extent on selling cheese[particularly cheddar ]milk and beef to the uk

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:04 AM

I AGREE ,SHE SEEMS TO HAVE AN IDENTITY CRISIS SHE THINKS SHE IS GEOFF BOYCOTT WELL THIS IS NOT A GAME OF CRICKET

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:43 AM

Nice 'quote of the week' in this morning's Sunday Times
France's European Minister, Nathanlie Loieau, has said she's named her cat Brexit
"She wakes me up at night mewling that she wants to go out, but when I get up to open the door she stay's where she is"
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 05:48 AM

Boycott....you've bowled me a googly there....

I don't think you're all being fair to the fragrant Theresa.

After all she promised to deliver Brexit, and that's what the poor sod is doing her best to accomplish.

What I've been saying in this thread is that it really is up to the remainers to cross party ally with each other and frustrate her and get your own way.

She can't do this for you.
Okay the Lib Dem idea doesn't appeal.

So what idea does appeal? I think you've done everything that can be accomplished by being rude to me.

Get your act together and organise, if you want to win! Its harder work than thinking up nasty things to say. But it may well be more productive.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:20 AM

I make no secret of my belief that we will be in the long term better off outside the EU.

How? I'm really curious.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jos
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:30 AM

Jim, France's European Minister Nathalie Loiseau must be a Mudcat reader:

RE: How many Mudcats have cats!?
From: Donuel - PM
Date: 19 Mar 19 - 06:01 AM

our cat is named Brexit

He meows to go out but when we open the door he just sits there undecided.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 06:54 AM

Mm Loiseau must be a secret Mudcat watcher
Thanks for that Jos
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 07:47 AM

My views are an irrelevance and will stimulate the production of all kinds of things.

The point is I'd like you guys not to feel cheated as you obviously do.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 08:47 AM

No, your views are not an irrelevance, Al. But so far, despite Remainers giving many, many examples of the benefits of membership of the EU, and what will be lost if (and I do believe it's a case of 'if' now, not 'when' - fingers crossed I'm right) we leave, you Leavers have failed completely to tell us what will be gained.

Raggy has asked, over and over again, on other threads, for our arch-Brexiteers to give us a few examples of how we will be better off - not airy-fairy, broad-brush waffle like "Stimulate the production of all sorts of things", but carefully considered, factual examples of solid, tangible benefits. There has been not one answer - at the best we've had silence, at the worst we got trolling, insults and abuse.

Over the past three years, all you have given us is reasons for leaving based on your perception of ways the EU has 'wronged' us - all in the distant past, all incorrect. Your pet moans seem to be that the EU destroyed our fishing and manufacturing industries - both nonsense.

The fishing industry - the real, serious, deep-sea industry that was the bedrock of the fishing business - was wrecked by Iceland's claiming sovereignty over waters far from its shores, a claim upheld by the International Court, and wrecked too by our own reckless and greedy over-fishing. Nothing to do with the EU, British fishing was already shot by the time we joined the EEC in 1973. The owners disposed of the fleets of Deep-Sea vessels, and once they had gone, they were never going to come back.

Our manufacturing industries, along with mining, were the casualties of the dogmas of UK politicians and their own trade unions. I worked in an engineering company which was a major supplier of pit and coal-prep equipment in the '60s and '70s, and it was clear that the writing was on the wall all that time because of unions overstepping the mark (and I say that as a Union-member during those years) and, as we moved towards the '80s, because of the determination of the Thatcher regime to break the strength of the unions even though, in doing that, they wrecked manufacturing in this country. Thatcher knew that mining and manufacturing were the strongholds of the union movement and that, to destroy the strength of the unions, she had to destroy that stronghold. All down to the actions of politicians, aided and abetted by unions who chose to fight the system, here in the U.K. Bugger-all to do with that nasty Johnny Foreigner in the EEC.

So yes, I feel cheated. I feel cheated by a tiny group of largely non-dom tax-dodgers who dreamed up Brexit in order to escape new Anti-Tax-Dodging Regulations, I feel cheated by a small group of lying politicians who danced to their tune played through the Right-Wing media they control, I feel cheated by bare-faced lies like '£350 million for the NHS', and 'immigrants are bankrupting the country", I feel cheated by sound-bites, and meaningless slogans like 'Take Back Control' (by which they meant 'give complete control to the same people who were quietly orchestrating the Leave campaign from their tax-havens), and I feel cheated by the people who allowed themselves to be sucked in by the lies, slogans, and sound bites, and voted to Leave the world's largest trading-bloc in which we hold a favoured position, which has made trade between its member states simple and straightforward, and which has given us seventy years of peace and prosperity.

So...make me feel better, stop me from feeling cheated - take some time and give us those solid, tangible benefits we will all get from leaving. I can't wait for the good news because, God knows, I'm sick and tired of hearing waffle, sidestepping and being told that, because I voted Remain, I'm a 'Traitor who should be arrested, marched out and shot' from Brexiteers.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:34 AM

Get your act together and organise, if you want to win!

Organise? You mean like a million people gathering to march in London? Or a petition that now tops 5 million signatures - whose originator had to leave the country due to death threats, which were telephoned to her personally?

I'd like you guys not to feel cheated as you obviously do

We British citizens who live in EU countries were not even allowed a vote on a matter which affects us so crucially. How would YOU feel if that had happened to you?

...she promised to deliver Brexit, and that's what the poor sod is doing her best to accomplish.

There is a very real chance that the "poor sod" will drive us into a no-deal crashout. That scenario was not on the referendum ballot.

Will you please, please, please tell us in what ways that would be good for Britain? This question keeps getting asked - and utterly ignored.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:45 AM

And in what ways those reasons outweigh the judgment of the governor of the Bank of England, the TUC, the CBI, and other business organisations?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 09:53 AM

Thatcher knew that mining and manufacturing were the strongholds of the union movement and that, to destroy the strength of the unions, she had to destroy that stronghold.

Rubbish! Mining was in decline for decades as has been pointed out innumerable times on here and manufacturing was increasing.
Producing far more valuable widgets with less people.(The only metric the economy is interested in


https://ourworldindata.org/death-uk-coal


https://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/22/manufacturing_figures/

Coal production had been in decline since around 1914, Manufacturing has gone from strength to strength post WW2
Awkward things facts. This is why certain remainiaccs never produce links. Links are can substantiate facts. Whimsy and opinion count for nowt.

Of course the magnificent Thatcher showed the unions that governments run countries, not jumped up upstarts like the scallywag Scargill.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:16 AM

ian would you explain the advantages

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:37 AM

sovereignty! Something that many wars are fought over.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 10:42 AM

This may be too personal and anecdotal for some here..
Therefore entirely deniable and dismisable...

The council estate I grew up on was built to service the biggest factory in our small town.
Real high quality post war solid building standards, with large front and back gardens.
Jobs for life, good living conditions, and stability...

Then Thatcher introduced 'right to buy', which bribed votes on the estate.
Within a year factory working new home owners painted their front doors
whatever colour they fancied to boast their individuality and new found status..
I'm alright Jack, eff U...!!!

My parents were commited to the principles of council accomodation
so stayed renters.

Within another year or so, the factory was suddenly closed down
and workers on the estate, my dad included, made redundant.
The new 'middle class' home owners were no longer so cushy..

If I speculate on matters a generation ago, as best I remember...
Many of those ex council house renters ended homeless
in a town with little else employment or alternative social housing
and their homes sold off at at auction.

I can only guess how many high quality houses with big gardens
ended up cheaply in the clutches of private landlords...

Thatcher couldn't have planned that better...???

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:03 AM

Yep, correct pfr.
Awkward things, facts.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:15 AM

So, a couple of hours have passed since I asked for the Brexiteers' solid, tangible benefits from leaving, and still nothing except more waffle.

The thing I feel most cheated by is that the Brexiteers voted Leave on the basis of...nothing but 'hopes' and 'aspirations'. Despite having lived for seventy years in prosperity, and at peace with our European neighbours, enjoying freedom to travel, work, and take their leisure within 27 countries without let or hindrance, enjoy the benefits to industry and commerce that simplified movement of goods and harmonisation of taxation- and banking-systems brings, and other benefits too numerous lo list here, those feeble-minded, dozy wallies voted for 'a hope'!

So, those solid, tangible benefits - let's be hearing them.

I won't hold my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:39 AM

Seventy years? Ooooops, shoulda sed 'fifty'!

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 11:47 AM

ok. here are some possibilities, benefits possibly for fishermen, possible free trade deals with africa china, total government from westminster.
disadvantages, loss of ease of movement through europe,possible hard border between irelanmd and uk[ inc possible return to violence]possible loss of major agricultural supplier ireland, loss of european subsidies for northern ireland which means this econmic albatroos [n ireland] will have to be supported by the uk entirely

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM

If ever there was a better time to give Northern Ireland back
and be rid of all the disproportionate problems...?????

Grant Dual British citizenship to all of them that want to insist on still being British,
maybe even extended to the next generation of their children, as a generous concession.

But otherwise tell them to bugger off and enjoy the benefits of being Irish with EU membership...

Oh, of course.. it could never happen while the tories are forced to lick DUP arses...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:21 PM

"Then Thatcher introduced 'right to buy', which bribed votes on the estate."

Simply not true, councils always had the right to sell their housing stock, providing permission was obtained from central government who supplied funding. Sales actually occurred from 1919.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:25 PM

No, sorry Dick. You are still missing the point. Voting for a party on one single issue is an absurdity. Saying vote for the Lib Dems if you want to stay in Europe is as daft as saying vote UKIP if you want to leave. In my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:34 PM

Sorry Dick, we haven't been asking for 'possibilities' - those fall into the category of 'hopes', 'aspirations', and 'waffle'. And, as members of the E.U., we already have, or the E.U. are currently negotiating on our behalf, extensive trade agreements with many countries, including China and a number of African countries.

https://fullfact.org/europe/how-many-free-trade-deals-has-eu-done/

What Remainers here want to hear about are definite, solid, tangible benefits. The absolutely certain benefits that everyone will feel from day one, and which persuaded Leavers to vote Leave.

So far, despite Raggy asking on many, many occasions, there's been nary a one. Why are we not surprised?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:35 PM

No I shouldn't hold your breath.    my Views are my business. All educated opinion agrees with you. I'm sure that leaves no room for doubt.

parading in the street is all very well. In 1967, I marched to Grosvenor Square against the Vietnam War - but I don't recollect, President Johnson giving a shit about our march

Hey!Hey! LBJ!!
How many kids did you kill today!

my advice for what its worth is , stop pissing about with anguished hysterical types, precocious teenagers, etc - and organise a proper campaign with clever people who actually agree with you - rather than politicians who are just along for the ride.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:37 PM

I am not advocating voting for the lib dems, i was trying to explain als point. ian come on lets have more than just sovereignty , that answere is weak

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:39 PM

Iain - that may have been the technical 'fact'.


But Thatcher's tories pushed it right to the forefront of their policy and propaganda agenda...
A previously lesser known housing rule became fanatically weaponised under thatcher's ideology,
to attack and break up state social provision...

That seriously can not be dismissed so easily...

A similar level of cynical hard hearted tory ideolgy drives brexit...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:47 PM

I am not advocating voting for the lib dems,

I know you're not, Dick , but that is precisely what Al advocates in his opening post. IE, "If you really belive what you've been saying you believe in - why not get behind the Liberrals instead of Jeremy."

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 24 Mar 19 - 12:55 PM

Actually, I wish a lot of the upper middle class Oxbridge, and radical student Labour supporters,
[and all others obsessed with divisive and distracting middle east, and identity politics]
would bugger off and join the Liberals...!!!


Letting Labour steer back to concentrating on it's core essentials again...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 04:00 AM

I'd recommend embittered BrexShit supporters like Al to read this piece and the twenty essays it links to.

There are lessons to be learned from the disastrous debacle of BrexShit, and the article goes a long way to explain causes of the feelings of disenfranchisement and abandonment the Brexshitters clearly feel but which, as I've tried on many occasions to impress on Al, apparently without success, are more accurately attributable to the political systems, and domestic policies of successive governments here at home in the UK.

I don't believe any of the Remainers here claim that the EU is a perfect construct, but I do truly and firmly believe that the benefits it's given us - not the least being beneficial trade arrangements and agreements, harmonised customs arrangements, H&S Regulations, Employment Protection laws and, most of all, peace with our 27 partner-nations for the longest continuous period ever - hugely outweigh the 'hopes' on which Brexshiteers seem to have pinned their decision to vote Leave, and which I believe will prove eventually to have been futile.

But, as they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. I suspect there will be a few still-thirsty Brexit-dobbins coming along shortly, 'neigh-saying' this post.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 04:26 AM

i think it is unfair to call Al embittered.
Back woodsman, i dont disagree with a lot of what you say, however i have a feeling that the days of the EU are numbered, in 10 years time it will fall apart, however that is not a reason to inflict hardship on ourselves for the next 4 /5 years, furthermoreweneed longer to try and sort the present political mess

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 04:30 AM

I don't have your crystal ball Dick, so I wouldn't presume to predict what will happen ten years into the future. I'll bow to the fact that you seem to have the power of foresight denied to us mere mortals.

Any chance you could PM me with the winning numbers for the next Euromillions jackpot draw?

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 05:47 AM

well its precisely the Brexshitter type of abuse that makes sensible debate an impossibility.

And what of the many articles there must be that don't confirm your point of view. Will you read 20 of them back to back?

The point of the thread was that the remainers stop insulting people, which many people find distressing - and organise themselves into meaningful action - if that what they actually want.

just maybe you wonder if they 're all getting off on the insults. the young kids obviously are. still thats forgiveable - its what its like being young.

You need people leading the movement who actually believe in REMAIN. Corbyn may or may not. Still its your call.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 06:09 AM

As a remainer, can I second "The point of the thread was that the remainers stop insulting people"? If remainers want to convince leavers to change their mind - not all of them, of course, but that group who were more-or-less undecided, but went for leave on balance - throwing insults is a very poor way to do it.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 11:49 AM

And can I point out that I get just as sick of being insulted and called names by leavers. It works both ways.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 12:00 PM

Not to mention the death-threats that Leavers are so fond of throwing out. I've never seen a Remainer making death threats, but I've been told by numerous Leavers on FaceBook and other forums that I'm a 'Traitor who should be arrested, marched out and shot) because I support Remain.

And the most abusive, insulting, trolling poster on this forum is a rabid Leaver.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 25 Mar 19 - 12:08 PM

play ground insulting & bullying politics don't help anyone...

Well it shouldn't...

But it actually does...

It helps those who want to divide and misdirect 'us' into petty bickering confrontational factions..

While 'they' get on with grabbing all they can from us,
to further enrich themselves...

This much should be bleedin' obvious..?????

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:36 AM

throwing insults does not affect how i will vote, what makes me inclined to change my mind is the thought of a dose of severe austerity

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:46 AM

Here in rural ireland , i have freebus and train travel i have a free library service at the bottom of my road, a bus that passes my door twice a week, i have a pension, in the evnt of brxit particularly no deal, these things may disappear, thankyou very much David Cameron. i would rather keep those things than have pie in the sky.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 06:17 AM

From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 04:46 AM

What a peculiar post. Do you have anything tangible to suggest your pension will no longer be paid or a local bus service will cease or the mobile library will suddenly vanish in a puff of smoke post brexit.
    I have seen nothing in the Southern Star to suggest such hysterics have any grounding in reality and I have heard nothing on the Ballydehob rumour mill either. Project fear on steroids I suggest!

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:02 AM

Iains - for years we skint musicians in particular have enjoyed excellent low price bargains
from Thomann Germany, and Amazon EU, etc...

Lowest prices, and no import duties, on Equipment and CDs I for one could not ever afford at inflated UK prices.

Tell me this will still be so after Brexit...???


Btw.. it's at least a decade since it was possible to buy similar from USA
and after Customs fees, VAT, and shipping still work out significantly cheaper than UK...
Which is why on this score, Europe is so crucial for me...

So seriously, tell I need not worry about losing this after Brexit...?????

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:06 AM

ps.. previously all I've heard is, "be a patriot and be prepared make sacrifices to regain our sovereigntity"...

So comforting to be told that by multi millionaire brexiteers...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:06 AM

I would rather remain and have those things in place than take a gamble and probably /possibly have austerity and cuts in social welfare, nothing strange in that

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:21 AM

Why would someone resident in west Cork feel that cuts in social welfare will result from Brexit. Agreements are already in place for pension payments, regardless of outcome.If you are claiming Irish benefits they are far more generous than those in the UK. The only major way Ireland will be impacted by brexit is by her own intransigence.
For example post no deal brexit the UK will recognise Irish driving licenses. Ireland has stated the opposite for UK licences in the republic.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

Iains - my question next please...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:38 AM

I think it highly unlikely tariffs between the US and UK post brexit would rise. I would have thought the reverse more likely. Cheaper steak being an obvious benefit and well sterilised chickens. Tariffs between the EU and UK post brexit is anybodies guess. For musical instruments I cannot see much need for change. However: a view below.

. Many musical instruments are manufactured outside the EU and are subject to tariffs, VAT and bureaucracy when imported currently, so this is not likely to change in the short term. In the longer term, tariffs on imports of musical instruments may be reduced or eliminated, but as they are small anyway the impact is likely to be minimal.

One potential impact is that some private UK purchasers may be dissuaded from buying from retailers in the EU because of the risk of instruments being held up in customs with all the bureaucratic problems that that involves

https://www.doublereed.co.uk/news/impact-assessment-brexit-and-the-musical-instrument-market/

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:40 AM

you need to think, if the irish economy suffers as a result of loss of trade to britain ,of course social welfare pensioners perks might be cut, if the uk economy crashes my pension is worth less, it is a no win situatioin for me , thankyou to the consevatives and ukip, bloody idiots

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 09:43 AM

and it was the uk, or rather a small majority of those who voted in the uk that decided to leave that is not the fault of ireland it was a decision made by the uk ant even a majority of the total electorate a small majority of those who voted, uk expatriots could not vote

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 10:11 AM

Iains - so basically swapping a known and consistent source of affordable purchases
for complete uncertainty...

A gamble nationalist zealots have taken without consideration for those many citizens it will directly affect adversely ...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Mar 19 - 10:34 AM

tariffs between the uk and ireland will probably rise

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 03:41 PM

From a skint musicians point of view...

A random example.."The La Super Rica Fuzz is available now for $179/£220"

so today, how does $179 become 220 quid..!!!!???? *

..and this is not so unusual in rip off Britain...


Which is why EU membership is working out so well for us...

[* Obviously recomended retail price is a guideline, and it pays to shop around.
But it just about always works out cheaper to buy from Europe].

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 03:47 PM

PFR Our decision to   join a European Common Market was fine. Having it morph into a political union is not. Thw gamw plan id creeping federalism to a fullon US of Europe with centralised taxation, defence and political union and destruction of the nation state.
You may be head over heels in love with the concept, I ain't!

I see many on here deny it yet it is their stated agenda and they are proud to admit to hoodwinking the electorate in order to implement their various schemes. Yet the remainers insist the brexiteers are stupid!

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 03:54 PM

i'd be grateful if the mods closed this down. its just turned into the usual tripe.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 04:00 PM

"...bands won’t be able to tour like “before the EU” Read more at https://www.nm


Iains - never was sure if you're a musician or not [a musiciain...???]
but here's an interesting article from a youngish journalist,
writing in a style that appeals to a younger hipper readership...

I just mentioned that in case some of us struggle with 'youth' sense of humour...

The points made are still valid for consideration by us old gits..

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 04:03 PM

Al - have patience - and trust [some of..] us...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 04:25 PM

Oh, stay around, Al. We need the rest of the song

"It I were a remainer
and you were a leaver..."

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 27 Mar 19 - 04:30 PM

Al, just for the record, in case this thread does get closed down:

No matter what happens in the Brexit dogfight, my high opinion of you is - and will stay - unchanged. I'll always admire you for your intelligence, your talent, your humour - and your moral courage in making a real attempt at communication with the other side, even when it's bound to get your head used as target practice. Please remember that.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:26 AM

ians not stupid but they have beenm conned, the complications were not explained neither was the legal stature of the referndum that is the fasult of david cameron ,farage, ans some other conservative polticians, personally i have no objection to a soft brexit, but i would rather the uk remained than there was a no deal

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 05:30 AM

100, and the uk enjoyed a privileged position in the eu having been allowed to keep its own currency , which i think was sensible

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:07 AM

It angers me that after 10 years or more of austerity
my family will be even worse off for the long term,
just because a fanatical minority of rich nationalist ex public school boys
with an obsession for arcane academic constituional history & law,
have stirred up the worst xenophobic impulses of the greater less educated masses...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:15 AM

Me too pfr.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:26 AM

just because a fanatical minority of rich nationalist ex public school boys
with an obsession for arcane academic constituional history & law,
have stirred up the worst xenophobic impulses of the greater less educated masses...
17.4 million gace their democratic decision.
You lost
Get over it.!

Amazing how the left insist on overturning democracy because they lost.

Y'all make good Democrats!

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:29 AM

..and that the outcome of this fiasco [ie how worse]
seems to be at the mercy of a handfull of hardline zealots DUP..

Now really is a bloody good time to wash our hands of Northern Ireland once and for alll...

of course this shit minority tory govt can't for obvious reasons,
but May's costly dependency on them has bit her in the arse...

I bet if hardline brexiteers were given the option
"you can have brexit entirely your own way, but on conditionn we relinquish the north,
and Ireland is re-unified"...

that'd scare DUP shitless...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:43 AM

Iains - I care about real life economic practicalities that will worsen me and my family's income and standard of living..

We can't afford the luxury of your kind of belligerently fanatical obession with constitutional theory...

The abstract academic concept of 'sovereignty' matters sweet F A...!!!

Except to those sufficiently well off, who will no doubt profiteer from brexit...

btw.. "y'all".. the UK far right are so influenced by Trumpists, they are turning into pantomime yanks...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:45 AM

Strange that you never hear the Swiss squealing about their numerous referendums.
It is called direct democracy - jus' like BREXIT!

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:53 AM

He's fast losing people to wind up, PFR. Looks like you are it for now. Sorry :-(

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 09:10 AM

In uncertain times fear only magnifies possibile problems.
Let us prey...

THE LORD SPRAYER

"Our Father, Richard in Heaven,
Harold be Thy name.
Thy King Dome come,
Thy Will be dumb,
On earth, as it isn't Heaven.
Give us this day our jelly bread,
And forgive us our dress patches
As we forgive those who dress bass against us.
And lead us not into Penn Station
But deliver us from Evel.
For Thine is the King Dome
And the powder
And the glory for river."

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 09:25 AM

I can regard Iains with some respect, or total disdain...

It depends on the degree of provocative bollocks he is talking in any particular post...

Most of the time, one way or another, intended or [more likely..] unintentional,
he gives me a chuckle...

My perverse sense of humour prevents me becoming the sterotypical snowflake antifa lefty,
that the right have convinced themselves are so representitive of ordinary socially aware decent compassionate people...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 08:28 AM

..btw.. now Keefs gone.. I can use a replacement...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 09:50 AM

Take up something quieter and more constructive. Learn to play the bagpipes :-)

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Acorn4
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 10:02 AM

The one thing that concerns Teresa May and whoever is pulling her strings is a Jeremy Corbyn led government. She has actually said as good as "over my dead body".

She knows that the whole of the Brexit shambles is a no score draw between the parties, whereas if it came to discussing policies Labour might continue the recovery they had at the last election.

Is it just possible that she is just trying deliberately to string out the whole Brextrication thing as long as possible, hoping to lure Labour into some kind of trap either through intended or unintended consequences or even unintended consequences of unintended consequences.

Play for time and hope something turns up. Not saying this for definite but it is a possibility.

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 10:02 AM

Me and Iains collaborating on a punk bagpipe project CD sounds like it could just work..

What with the best bands in all music history being fraught with internal tension,
infighting, intense love/hate dynamics, and occasional explosive punch ups...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 10:04 AM

errmmm.. sounds like I just described the tory govt.. on one of their better days...

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: Iains
Date: 28 Mar 19 - 11:19 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3t8P1eqyvo

Subject: RE: BS: If I were a remainer...
From: DMcG
Date: 29 Mar 19 - 02:15 AM

Voting for a party on one single issue is an absurdity.

I agree. However, it is now looking likely that the Conservative manifesto and approach to the next general election is likely to strive to make it a single issue one.