BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)

Subject: BS: cruise ships
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Mar 20 - 05:34 PM

So how much of a contributory factor are they in italy s corona virus situation, why are there many more deaths and cases than there is in for example greece?

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: mg
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 12:43 AM

i don't know but they are the source of many outbreaks..norovirus, legionaire's disease etc. just saw a study about the virus collecting in the air vents. At least one of the ships was not said to have good quarantine practices by an infectious disease doctor.

I think their best hope right now is to be used as docked dormitories for single workers or other groups who would neither party too hard or bring other contagious diseases on board. Perhaps older people? Don't know but they should be thoroughly cleaned with steam, regular disinfecction and UV robots.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: DMcG
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 03:33 AM

Very difficult to say. The outbreak in Italy was originally centred on Lombardy, which is not exactly coastal. If the cruise ships were responsible you would expect it to be focused on ports and/or the 'shore excursion' destinations.

No doubt they play much more of a part in bringing the illness to more isolated areas like the islands of Indonesia.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 04:38 AM

There is too much uncertainty to make definitive statements about any aspect of Covid-19. Even numbers infected are a wild guess. The only relatively hard figures are those hospitalized, those in acute care and those that have died. Statistically if you are male you are at higher risk, as you are if you have underlying medical conditions. Italy also has 23% of its population over 65, the highest in Europe.
Depending on what stage lockdown occurs, other countries are likely to follow the pattern of Italy.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 04:48 AM

Depending on what stage lockdown occurs, other countries are likely to follow the pattern of Italy.
why, why should they not follow the pattern of china

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 07:20 AM

Italianos are older as Iains said and the most tactile culture I know.
They talk with ther hands and touch.

Croise ships are not US or UK. They are generally Liberian for tax reasons. Let them reap what they sow.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 07:26 AM

Because China is authoritarian the west is not.
What would have been the reaction had Boris gone for lockdown on the 1st March? At that stage we had 23 cases and no fatalities.
He would have been laughed at: Until the figures stated to escalate
legislation would have been ignored and the opposition would have had a field day mocking and ridiculing. Yesterday the figures were 3,983 confirmed positive and 177 have died.
There ain't no one laughing now and no one is disputing the need for lockdown.
That is the difference between the Chinese regime and ours. The people in a democracy have to give consent to stringent measures. We are not a police state. Sadly because of this societal inertia the death toll will be increased. That is a fact of life as is the fact that numbers will increase for several weeks most likely.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 01:07 PM

iainS have yOu been to china in the last couple of years? ON WHAT BASIS DO YOU MAKE THE REMARK THEY ARE AUTHORITARIAN

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: Iains
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 02:08 PM

I have worked in a number of middle eastern countries including the Yemen, that ranks with Saudi as the most authoritarian in the Middle East.
I have worked with Chinese in Iraq. Having experienced authoritarian regimes first hand and having lived in authoritarian Singapore for a couple of years I think I can assess whether a description of China as authoritarian has merit. I say it does as do a multiplicity of other souces. On what grounds do you find the assertion contentious?

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Mar 20 - 11:21 PM

you have not been to china ,have you?
THERE ARE OTHER REASONS WHY THE CHINESE HAVE CONTAINED THE VIRUS ,
1. MOST OF THEM WEAR MASKS WHEN THEY HAVE A COLD OR FLU THUS PREVENTING TO SOME EXTENT INFECTION.
2. movement withinloclitris was stopeed for a moth, in other words if you lived in naning but where somwerhere else you had to stay where you were for a month, although you were ok mto do local shopping etc, how much more authoritarian is that than prevnting travel in the west, as is the case at the moment in france

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:16 AM

Room 13 on the right is the fight room. Make a booking.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:31 AM

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/china-s-aggressive-measures-have-slowed-coronavirus-they-may-not-work-other-countries

the report is unequivocal. “China’s bold approach to contain the rapid spread of this new respiratory pathogen has changed the course of a rapidly escalating and deadly epidemic,” it says. “This decline in COVID-19 cases across China is real.”
"The question now is whether the world can take lessons from China’s apparent success—and whether the massive lockdowns and electronic surveillance measures imposed by an authoritarian government would work in other countries. “When you spend 20, 30 years in this business it’s like, ‘Seriously, you’re going to try and change that with those tactics?’” says Bruce Aylward, a Canadian WHO epidemiologist who led the international team and briefed journalists about its findings in Beijing and Geneva last week. “Hundreds of thousands of people in China did not get COVID-19 because of this aggressive response.”

I rest my case.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: Iains
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 03:49 AM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Hubei_lockdowns

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as source of Coronavirus)
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 10:11 AM

Places where governments can mandate protective measures will be more effective. Here in the US, the last I heard, there were still a few states where schools were in session. I pointed out on Facebook that one reason for governments is to enforce public health mandates for people who are too stupid or uncaring about the "greater good". I believe China had the capability to enforce mandates.

We're big on individual rights here. When they interfere with the rights of others to not be dead, I think they should be superseded.

Regarding cruise ships...
The virus originated in China. China is the source. It was spread by people becoming infected and traveling to vulnerable populations. (Which was all of them.)
People likely thought they had a cold. It took a while before anybody realized how serious this is.
ANY group of people confined in a specific location will spread diseases. I go on a cruise every year, and I always get whatever the current "plague" is. (I managed to skip it this year.) It's spread in nursing homes, schools, and prisons, for example.
If you're on one of these floating confinement things, then bugger off to various and sundry lands, the disease will go with you.

So first, people don't KNOW.
Then, they don't believe. ("I have rights, and you can't make me...")
They don't believe until it hits them where they live, and by then, it's too late.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 10:13 AM

And as a former public health weenie, I changed the "source" in the title to "vector" because words matter. :)

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 11:15 AM

By law quarantines are governed by the states. The federal government is the shipping clerk for resources.

Vector is also important in physics. It implies direction plus geometry

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Stanron
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 01:52 PM

If the Chinese are successful with their lock down approach it must mean that the virus has stopped from spreading in their country. Enforce lock down for long enough and the virus may die out in that country. But it won't have died out abroad. What happens if someone unwittingly brings it back into China?

In Italy it seems that the virus has evaded containment. It has got out to the general population and eventually everyone will get it. The immune, curable and non-susceptible will survive and the virus will take it's place alongside lots of other viruses as nothing special.

Which approach is really best? It's tough on those who die and their loved ones but, sorry, we all die sooner or later.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 05:47 PM

however cruise ships where people are confined and often elderly seem ideal places to spread germs. I do not know what is the best approach but at the moment avoiding large gatherings of people seems sensible.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Donuel
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 05:57 PM

Are you a strict religious rhetorical? You ask the same question but do not acknowledge the answers.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Gurney
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 06:04 PM

Here in NZ we have fewer cases than elsewhere, BUT, all but a very few are connected with tourism, either dealing with foreign tourists or more likely Kiwis being the returning tourists, having contracted the disease abroad.
Our government has decreed that no more tourists may enter, although returning Kiwis can, and so can marine crews and airline crews.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: mg
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 06:05 PM

i think a lot in cruise ships has to do with ventilation systems. Probably also for prisons and nursing homes. We need to certainly override some of them and open the windows to fresh air. I suspect we need something like the fresh air porches etc. like in TB homes. My brother works in a prison..my sister said he'll be all right..he has no contact with the prisoners. He just works with the heating and ventilation. Oops.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 07:17 PM

Spoke to me brother in NZ this evening, Gurney (he's in Tirau). Your government seems a bit too relaxed about all this, from what he was saying. I hope that things don't deteriorate there too much... Events have overtaken Boris. Don't let me the same thing happen your end...

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 07:23 PM

Me, me, me. Sorry about that unwanted inclusion...

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 22 Mar 20 - 07:33 PM

On the ships I've been on, and admittedly NOT one of those horizontal floating cities, have had a fetish about killing viruses. On one you couldn't enter the dining room without using a hand sanitizer and there was a member of the Purser's staff to see that you did. That one held 650 passengers, max. I wouldn't touch one of those "cruise ships" with rubber gloves and a hazmat suit!

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 05:54 AM

Looks like NZ were reading this thread. They're locking down!

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 07:53 AM

We could do with a PM here of the quality of Jacinda Arden, instead of the out-of-his-depth-and-overwhelmed, blustering Bullingdon-Boy we’ve got.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 08:09 AM

Most cruise operators are ceasing operations and laying up vessels. There are currently 2 P & O cruise ships tied up here in Dover.

No more cruises for the foreseeable future.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Senoufou
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 09:29 AM

I've never been on a cruise (God forbid!) but my sister has been on several, around the Baltic, Norwegian fjords, Spain etc etc.
From what she's told me they sound like my idea of sheer hell. Not just the seasickness which would be the death of me the moment I got on board, but the crowds, people making a din all over the ship, loud music, queuing up for food (like school dinners?) stuffy cabins...
She has another one booked for May to the Western Med, Barcelona and Italy. But the company ('Celebrity' I think she said) have given some elastic of 48 hours' notice before sailing if one wants to cancel.
The blooming thing won't sail, that's for sure.
She likes the outings from the various ports to sightsee, and has booked lots of those too.
Gawd, I can't think of anything more horrendous! hee hee

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 09:50 AM

I like floating around in a nice climate, and going to hear music all day and night for a week. But most of it is, at most, on the border of "folk" (John Prine, Steve Earle, Emmy Lou, etc.) I think they scrapped plans for next year's pretty early on.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 09:57 AM

I am booked in my longest cruise ever early next year. I am fully expecting it to be cancelled, and if not, I anticipate quite a few of the ports being unwilling to let us dock, which really takes away the point.

I see it hiining a long list of things that are not happening this year and early next (daughter's wedding*, son's 49th celebrations, nephew's wedding in two cities - he is marrying a girl from so there a a nine and an away leg ...


* The actual wedding is still going ahead at the moment, but only celebrant, bride, groom and two witnesses allowed, so no parents or other friends

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 09:58 AM

*joining

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: DMcG
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 09:59 AM

*a home and away leg

Sorry I scrolled the phone to make the edits and the message got submitted in error.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 11:06 AM

I'm booked on a springtime cruise that someone kindly bought for us, but Saga are so far refusing to cancel it. They're hoping, I suspect, that the Package Travel Regulations, which up to now would have insisted on refunding in the event of cancellation, will be relaxed to allow them to give vouchers instead, which would enable them to keep our money for up to two years. The cruise certainly won't happen, and Saga have even offered their two ocean cruise ships, including our one, to be used by the government as hospital ships. I can't think that a single person booked on that cruise still wants to go on it. Poor stuff, Saga, in m'humble...

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 11:27 AM

https://www.quorum.us/data-driven-insights/the-115th-congress-is-among-the-oldest-in-history/175/

Average age of cruise ship passengers

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: leeneia
Date: 23 Mar 20 - 11:40 PM

A month ago I was on a small cruise ship, seeing the Caribbean. It was great. Fine food, cooked by others. Dishes done by others. Music often. Wonderful scenery and geology. Pleasant excursions off shore.

Nobody was sick. Nobody was worried about getting sick. Probably nobody is sick now.

When I didn't want to go ashore, I'd either color or play my recorder on the balcony. Talk about rest and recreation. Although maybe rest and restoration (of my spirit) was more like it.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Iains
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 03:48 AM

The last cruise ship I was on was offshore Angola moving to a new location. In a previous life it had salvaged bits of Russian subs in the Pacific.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 01:51 PM

I have only endured what could be loosely described as a "cruise" once to Santander in Northern Spain. I hated every moment of it, although the food was pretty good.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 02:26 PM

I did that return trip to Santander many times, both on holiday and for taking bunches of schoolkids from Bude to go and practise their Spanish, on the Val de Loire. Car ferries have funny bottoms that make travelling on rough seas quite an adventure. On one occasion there was a force 9 gale in Biscay. I had terrible trouble stopping my pint from sliding off the table in the bar.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 24 Mar 20 - 07:00 PM

I remember the captain announcing that we were passing the Isle of something and will be entering the Bay of Biscay - where it might be a little choppy, he wasn't wrong!!

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: mg
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 01:02 AM

i wondered how the ventilation system on cruise ships is cleaned. I just read something that says they blast dry ice pellets through the system. Next i shall ask how the toilet pipes are cleaned.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: DMcG
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:14 AM

I have cruised a lot - something like 250 days in total, looking at the 'points' schemes these various companies run. In all of that, the only time I have been ill was on the Bay of Biscay - and it was on what seemed the smoothest crossings of the Bay I have ever had. There were no gales, or spectacular waves - had plenty of those in the North Sea - nor was the ship obviously moving or juddering in any dramatic fashion, but I, and a goodly proportion of the passengers, and the staff, were really ill. By all accounts it is caused by a mismatch between the position information from your eyes and semicircular canals, so my best guess is that we were having continuous tiny adjustments, and finding that harder to deal with than the large scale ones a gale would bring.

But I tell what really finished me off: when I decided I was bad enough I needed an anti-seasickness injection and went to the medical centre. The smell when the lift doors open was so strong and vomit-inducing I stayed on and let the doors close to take me back to my cabin. In a few hours, though, I had to go back and face it again.

Subject: RE: BS: cruise ships (as vector of Coronavirus)
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 25 Mar 20 - 03:58 AM

I’ve never been on one of those ‘floating city’ cruises, and I have never had even the slightest inclination - the idea of being cooped up with a couple of thousand other people whom I neither know nor, for the most part, like for a fortnight fills me with revulsion.

I have, however, sailed many times as part of a crew of 50-60 on large-ish sailing vessels - schooners mostly but also brigs - a total of maybe a couple of years at sea in fortnightly bites. I was sea-sick every time for the first couple of days - those ships not only pitch and roll a lot, but the also heel to a greater or lesser degree depending on relative wind-direction and velocity. Very disorientating until you get your sea-legs.

If you think a Nine in the Bay of Biscay is bad on a 10,000-tonne ferry, you should try it on a 500-tone sailing-ship!

Fortunately, sea-sickness does pass after 24-48 hours.