BS: Homeless in Ireland

Subject: BS: HOMELESS IN IRELAND
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:45 PM

I the area near where i live there are disused schools and disused churches, the church and the government are making no attempt to use these buildings.
then of course there are abandoned houses . while these buildings are in different degrees of suitabilty.
I would have thought the government/church might make some attempt to repair and look after their assets property and use them to house the homeless

Subject: RE: BS: HOMELESS IN IRELAND
From: Raggytash
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:56 PM

Hi Dick,

Last year out in County ****** a disused hotel was to be converted to house Refugees …………………….. that met a storm of protest.

The claim was the building wasn't suitable …………. it had been a 4 star hotel. Didn't conform to building regs …… it was going to be renovated.

Hmm … good enough for tourist but not good enough for refugees.

A sure case of NIMBY'ism

Subject: RE: BS: HOMELESS IN IRELAND
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Apr 20 - 04:58 PM

perhaps by taking the lead in creating a coalition to create the first property for homeless domiciles, others may follow. It sounds like a worthy but uphill struggle. We have Jimmy Carter who undertook such a challenge and found unique alternatives.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: BobL
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 03:29 AM

More to the point, this is not going to solve the problem, unless the root cause is a shortage of homes.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:05 AM

A ajor and growing problem so much so that it has its own language - "Vulture Capitalism" being a good example
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 09:17 AM

It is a multifaceted problem.
Social housing is a very small part of the housing sector
The celtic Tiger years drove property prices way ahead of wages and despite a correction in the property market the disparity is still high.
Conditions for being granted a mortgage are onerous, the standard 2,5 kid family reqires film star wages to qualify.
The private rental sector has to comply with very tight regualtions both to be able to rent and satisfy local authority standards for the unemployed to be given rent allowances.
The regulations are such that an appreciable percentage of homes in private ownwership would be declared uninhabitable (how many stonebuilt cottages are damp free?)
Tobring an old property up to standards required for renting can cost thousands of euros. it is easier for some tokeep the property derelict rather than borrow the sums required and rely on tenants of dubious reliability to provide the means to pay off the loan.
That is apart from those homeless because of addiction, mental health issues.
Central governmenr could do a lot more: for example more hostels or guaranteeing loans enabling housing stock to be made available for social housing.
There are many potential cures but the will, finance and required legislation needs to be in place first.
The are no simple solutions and trying to make it a political issue by attaching inflammatory labels does nothing to aid discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 10:01 AM

"The celtic Tiger years drove property prices way ahead of wages"
Nope - the problems of Irish housing came with the 2008 Crash which started in the US and reverberated around the planet - it is no coincidence that Goldman Sachs was the big bad Wall Street Wolf then and continues to be that today in Ireland
Their practice of buying up rented housing estates, evicting the tenants and 'gentrifying' the property gave rise to the term 'Vulture Capitalism' in the press here
It is true that the right wing main parties went along with it which is why they have plummeted in the eyes of the electorate - they are at present trying to rectify it, not bey putting things right on the housing and poverty front but by combining to keep the real winners of the last election, Sinn Fein out of office with a coalition rig-up
Hopefully, the people will kick the arses tho FF and FG and any party that toadies to their fight against the people they are supposed to represent

The Celtic Tiger was a massive leap forward for the Irish people as was membership of the EU, the superstructure of the country was improved forever, the Arts came into their own and exiles poured back into Ireland in their thousands
Since the banks miked the Tiger to death, much of that has disappeared
Time to look for a lamp-post and rope, I think
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 10:54 AM

The following are facts.

In 1995 we rented a 6 bedroomed bungalow down in Kerry for a holiday. 4 bedrooms were en-suite, it had a large living room, dining room and a great kitchen. Good enough to easily cook for 14 people.

At the end of the holiday we found it was for sale at an asking price of £35,000 or 36,000 punts.

Five years later we were in that neck of the woods again and again it was on the market. The asking price was £235,000.

Surprisingly another 5 years later it was on the market again at £435,000.

I've just had a look and a similar but slightly smaller house on the same development is currently on the market at 495,000 Euro approx £430,000

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 12:03 PM

Raggytash Thank   you for making the point over escalation of property prices.
In 1995 532.38eur weekly av earnings corrcted to 2015 figures
In 2019 €783.62,
The Irish government   has invested in ghost estates, some of which became social housing.

https://www.thejournal.ie/ghost-estates-whats-happening-3308561-Apr2017/

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Raggytash
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 12:32 PM

True Iains and a whole heap of people built house, in some cases estates, in the hope of selling at inflated prices. A good number of these have never been lived in and stand empty.

I am aware of houses in Galway that have been on the market in excess of 4 years.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 03:02 PM

Raggytash. That unfortunately is the way it goes. Some builders became millionaires,others became bankrupt. In Ireland selfbuild is the way many people provided homes for themselves. This is becoming more difficult to do due to the complex web of new building regulations. requiring certification every step of the way and creating more and more expense. There was argument over this several years ago, I am not up to date with the outcome. Price escalation is a fact of life, the first house I bought was 19k, last time it hit the market it was 650k-a gap of around 45 years.(a very healthy escalation since I sold it 25 years ago.)
One very minor example of the changes is the required registration of septic tanks and much tightened regulations concerning their installation. A permeability test is required before any tank is installed to ensure the treated effluent can soak away at the correct speed. As much of the soil is overconsolidated glacial clay the permeability is frequently too low. This requires   importing topsoil to ensure the required standards are met. This would be the simplest solution but even that comes at a considerable cost. Just the machine and operator hours plus engineer onsite to carry out the teat is likely four figures. If the holes go below 1.2m and anyone wants to enter it must be shuttered. Even more expense.
It can certainly be justified on environmental concerns, just like radon barriers and enhanced insulation. but it all adds up.
Houses are expensive and a percentage of people/families will never be able to afford ownership. They cannot be made more affordable unless there is a radical departure from conventional housing.
Having lived in skid mounted quarters in jungles and deserts for decades, similar constructions could be used for permanent housing. Even standard shipping containers can be converted to supply housing, after all many are rented out as temporary office accomodation. They even come as flatpacks, as I found to my cost, on arriving at a remote site in Guatamala many moons ago.
What is really needed is a lot more social housing.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:22 PM

In my very limited experience of Ireland I had forgotten the stories of their housing boom, and unfinished houses after 2008. Then on a ceili weekend I spotted a multiple development lying unfinished, and then another, then ...........

This was 11 years after the crash, and there were habitable houses needing a lick of paint and little else. So the shortage of houses in Ireland is not true, it is complicated though. Empty churches, yea, saw one, are not cheap to convert as dormitories.

What the OP is implying is needed is something akin to workhouses.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:47 PM

As with every Capitalist country - The builders are the middlemen - it's the investors who become the real millionaires
Ireland is a rural country and in the main, construction is carried out by small builders
You'd know that if you spent any time here
SEE HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 05:47 PM

As with every Capitalist country - The builders are the middlemen - it's the investors who become the real millionaires
Ireland is a rural country and in the main, construction is carried out by small builders
You'd know that if you spent any time here
SEE HERE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 16 Apr 20 - 06:23 PM

Breakdown of housing last year in Ireland:
21000 homes were built last year.
The state aquired 4400 for social housing
5068 were one off builds in mainly rural areas for the most part built by their owners and not offered for sale
12529 were new housing estates of which the state received 4392 for social housing
Local authorities and approved housing bodies received 2,229 through Part V, a planning law requiring developers to hand over a portion of all new schemes so they can be used for social housing.
The state bought or leased 2163 for social housing
Investment funds bought 95% of 3,644 apartments completed last year
8000 went on the open market.

A vivid illustration of part of the problem is below:
€386,000 average cost of a home in Dublin is now beyond most would-be first-time buyers. A young couple with a combined income of €94,000 would still be unable to get a mortgage that would allow them to buy a home at that price.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 02:49 AM

housing needs to be affordable,
quite alot of houses built during the celtic tiger are mansions built in places where there are no access to schools,or,and no nearby facilties such as shops or schools

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 03:23 AM

Ireland is in the grip of a housing crisis and has been for some time - its causes date back to their following the long established British lead, instigated by the Thatcher Government's turning property from homes into Investments - Britain, particularly in the South of England, was way ahead out of the starting gate ìn this particular race

I saw close up, the mass foreclosures, tenants just 'turning the key' and walking away from their homes because they were unable to pay their mortgage
Thatchers home ownership scheme had a nationwide effect in Britain
Her 'Right to Buy' policy was a distorted version of a previous Labour plan to improve Council property - the Labour scheme was to raise money to improve council estates, Thatcher's monster preys on the dream people had of home ownership.   
It took most of the money that was raised and diverted it to the treasury, local Government was forbidden to use what little money it was granted on Council Property - property crashed, homelessness reached crisis level and those who had bought their homes wee trapped in deteriorating housing estates - the dream became a nightmare for many
I was working in housing redevelopment and repair at the time and saw this close up

We were lucky - we owned a desirable Victorian house which we had been able to buy at an affordable price before this mess started, and 'lovingly improved' ourselves - we were able to sell it easily, buy a site here for 'half nothing' and have a small builder build us an excellent home to our own specifications for a reasonable price - that was slap in the middle of The Celtic Tiger, before the Banks and the vulturism of The Great Crash began turning homes into investments (for those city-dwellers who were more than wealthy enough to be part of that pig-race to start with
Our former London home is now worth four times the amount we sold in for - in twenty years
That is obscene

It is a philosophy of greed by those who already have more than enough to spend in their own lifetimes that has caused this situation - The Celtic Tiger improved the country - its slaughter has led to what is happening now

The hope for Ireland lies in its fairer electoral system; thanks to PR, Govenments cannot get away with bad behaviour untouched
The rise of groups like 'People Before Profit' and the current success of a party that offers a genuine alternative is showing that big time, so much so that the traditional status quo parties have been forced into seeking coalition to keep things comfortably the same for the 'already have enoughs' and they are already talking of a next election
The people here seem more astute to what is going on - when Labour tried to Sup with the Devil in order to extend its parliamentary muscle - it crashed almost to oblivion   
Now realisable proposals of real change are on the table
That we may all live long enough to see them realised
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: MudGuard
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 04:57 AM

Raggytash, regarding:
Hmm … good enough for tourist but not good enough for refugees.

There's a UN High commissioner for Refugees. But none for tourists ...

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Raggytash
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 07:29 AM

Mudguard I was being sarcastic! :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: MudGuard
Date: 17 Apr 20 - 12:03 PM

Me too ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Apr 20 - 04:42 PM

This kind of thing is taking place all over the 'civilized' world. My father bought a ranch (no tilled soil) of 160some acres, a small house, a dilapidated barn and a small orchard for $39,000 USD. Thirteen years later, he sold it for $104,000- not because of any improvements, because things had become only more decrepit, but simple inflation.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 03:54 AM

Much of what is happening in Ireland with property originated in the US Ebbie (sorry to have a pop at a people I basically get on extremely well with when I meet them again)
The film 'The Big Short' should be compulsory viewing as a reminder of what happened and why - wonderful stuff
Jim

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 04:36 AM

Ireland is in the grip of a housing crisis and has been for some time - its causes date back to their following the long established British lead, instigated by the Thatcher

Sounds almost believable BUT!
To be accurate it must be pointed out that The Labour Party initially proposed the idea of the right of tenants to own the house they live in, in their manifesto for the 1959 general election which they lost.

If insisting upon dragging politics into every thread it helpful to be accurate.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:54 AM

"The Labour Party initially proposed the idea of the right of tenants to own the house they live in"
We've already been there Iains - keep up
They did so in a limited way order to raise money for Council estates by targeting the few who could afford it
Thatcher sold is as the future for housing as a way to become part of the investment economy, the result being council housing dwindled and was starved of investment and council estates were bought up en-masse to be 'gentrified' and resold and many who had bought them individually because they couldn't keep up with the mortgage payments
It was a deliberate policy by Pinochet's lover to take back what Labour gave to rebuild Britain after a devastating war - political thuggery of the Thatcher kind
Now you have the same thing in Ireland only there are no cut-price bargains this time and it is foreign multinationals snapping up the properties and doing the evicting
That's why the people's choise in the last election is being overridden
Hopefully, the Irish will live up to its magnificent history and kick the bastards predators out
Makes you proud to have relatives who were involved in all they eh- sorry - you wouldn't know, would you ?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 08:53 AM

What has pinochet's lover got to do with homelessnesss in Ireland whoever he/she may be?
I think the citizens of the republic could get a little upset by suggestions foreignors created homelessness.
It was more a weak domestic fiscal policy allowed rampant inflation in the property sector that transitioned boom to bust.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 10:01 AM

It's about thatcher climbing into bed with a murderous dictator and making homes investable rather than for living in
Nothing top do with foreigners - just international greed
The Irish have experienced 8 centuries of it to understand that
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 01:04 PM

spot on, jim

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 02:55 PM

Interesting that blow ins think they know all the answers!

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 03:03 PM

Speaking as another "blow-in" I think Iains comment may class as racist.

Certainly hate speech.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 04:05 PM

Irish Idioms and Phrases in Everyday Use

Blow-In

A stranger or foreigner, basically anybody whose ancestors have not lived within sight of the parish church for at least ten generations.

Racist? Hate speech?
Howabout raggytash = troublemaker?

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 04:55 PM

Iains, I made a comment that I considered you had made a racist remark combined with hate speech.

You reply with a personal attack.

Do you ever wonder why you are castigated on this website.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:18 PM

You reply with a personal attack
No. I responded to a personal attack. A major difference!

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:23 PM

No Iains. Please read again the words I wrote. It made no reference to you as a person, it did make reference to the words you had posted.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Iains
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:32 PM

I do like the worm impersonation. Have you considered turning professional?

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Apr 20 - 05:41 PM

Yet another personal attack.

Subject: RE: BS: Homeless in Ireland
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 22 Apr 20 - 08:14 AM

Eassy to see why Irish don't post here as often as they should Rag
That level of mentality dates back to PUNCH from someone who persistently lies about being a racist
Joined-up thinking ot what!!!
Jim