Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection

Subject: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 03:39 PM

Buoyed up with the success of other recent requests here's another jigsaw puzzle.
Sung to Sharp by Lucy Carter of Tintinhull, Somerset, in 1906.

Very garbled and more likely than not a hotchpotch from different songs

The first 2 lines occur in a number of similar songs and the diamonds may be a passing ref to 'Come write me down/Powers above' Any suggestions welcome.

His eyes were black, were black as any sloes,
His cheeks were like, were like the blooming roses,
His voice did sound as clearly as the violets in bloom,
We got diamonds in each other's eye.

And now I'll go across the raging sea,
And see a man the comforts I could find,
The comforts did not please me and the voice I did not love,
When they sunk down in yonder green groves.

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: GUEST,#
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 04:49 PM

https://books.google.ca/books?id=rXAE-KbkomsC&pg=PA264&lpg=PA264&dq=%22His+voice+did+sound+as+clearly+as+the+violets+in+bloom%22

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 24 Feb 21 - 05:41 PM

Thanks #, same source. Good to have verification that it's a superb tune and deserves reprinting. If I don't manage to link it up to other versions/songs I might offer it as a competition to use all of the wording but remake it so that it coheres and makes sense. The 'no comfort could I find' reads as a little familiar.

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 08:29 AM

Steve,

And now I'll go across the raging sea,
And see a man the comforts I could find,
The comforts did not please me and the voice I did not love,
When they sunk down in yonder green groves.

With no offence meant to anyone living or dead, the verses of the stanza don't really 'hang together' as it were. I don't know whether it's the scansion that's messed up or my reading of it. Is there a place to hear the melody do you know?? I'm trying to find some cohesion in it, but I'm encountering difficulties doing that. (I see in your last post that you are too.)

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 09:38 AM

If we want to publish something cohesive when a tune is a good one we have 2 choices with the texts and often resort to a mixture of the 2.
1) Find another version of the song(s) that is more cogent.
2) Try to rewrite something that makes sense, using what we have.

The tune is available on the EFDSS VWML site. I think the title is 'Eyes as black as sloes'. The text is ref. CJS2/9/865. I'm not dealing with the tunes, just the texts. Nick is the tunes man and Cohen is doing the setting. If you are same GUEST# you already have the tune at the blue clicky you gave. I don't have the skills to turn it into a midi but Nick does. If you are interested in what we're trying to do I can put you in touch with Nick.

Nick is happy with versions of 'The Poor Man's Son' Roud1139 which have some correspondence with the first stanza so if nothing more appropriate turns up that's what we will probably go with.

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 09:41 AM

Attempting to rationalize a narrative: young couple is madly in love, he rejects her or dies, she wanders forlorn. In the event this is a distillation of a single song (and not a recombination and/or the singer's creation), surely there are two dozen items that fit that profile. Unfortunately I've never paid attention to any of them.

No strong connections, but here are some echoes:

On top of eye-diamonds, Come Write Me Down also features "comforts" prominently in the final verse of print texts.

"Violets in bloom" recalls Louie Fuller's Green Grows the Laurel ("violets so blue"). Similar subject matter.

Looking at Sharp's transcription, is it possible the line is "yonder green graves," not "groves"? Not suggesting an actual relationship, but that construction and the subject matter give Unquiet Grave vibes.

Subject: Tune Add: Eyes like sloes
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 10:00 AM

Same source, but I could only see the one verse.
Copied here with slight differences to Steve's post.
Line 2, "rose" not "roses", it rhymes better with "sloes".
Addition of "(babies)" in fourth line.
Tune also added. This can be seen/printed/played by copying from "X:1" to "eyes" into an ABC converter such as the one here: Mandolintab.net

EYES LIKE SLOES
Collected Cecil Sharp (1906)

His eyes were black, were black as any sloes.
His cheeks were like, were like the blooming rose.
His voice did sound as clearly as the violets in bloom.
We got diamonds (babies) in each other's eyes.

X: 1
T:Eyes like sloes
M:4/4
L:1/4
S: Unprintable Ozark Folksongs
Z: NP 25 Feb 2021
K:D
F| GEcB| AEGF| D3F| GEc3/2 B/| AG (E/F/) G| A3A| DFFG| A2B d/d/| cAGE| F2A3/ A/|d2 (cA)| d2 (cA)| cBGE| D3||
w: His eyes were black, were black as an-y sloes. His cheeks were like, were like the bloom-_ing rose. His voice did sound as clear-ly as the vi-o-lets in bloom, We got dia-monds_ (ba-bies)_ in each oth-er's eyes.

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 10:07 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfG7fR1RVKI

I don't read music, so I have to hear it to understand. Found that, so it lets me know the melody. She definitely says graves, not groves in that song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 10:37 AM

I don't read music as well.

Yes the slip was mine with 'groves' but understandable when the rhyme is 'love' and the very common phrase in folk song is 'green groves'. It doesn't get us any closer though.

Nigel there are minor differences in the first verse between the text manuscript and the music manuscript (rose/roses for instance). Before this I wasn't familiar with the diamonds = babies idea even though I've been singing The Powers Above for over 50 years. Crazy!
Yes I see the connection now between 'comforts' and 'diamonds in the eyes'. Might be something in it. That's some confused text though!

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: cnd
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 12:39 PM

As someone who can read sheet music, that book link provided by Guest,# above is one of the stranger melodies I've seen and feels very forced.

I don't have the time to look into it for now, but if I fail to comment in a few days make sure to "bump" this thread, as I'm liable to forget otherwise!

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 02:12 PM

Lucy Carter was from a traveling family, and I could certainly imagine someone like Caroline Hughes singing the tune as printed. (Maybe there's a bit of Down By The Old Riverside in there?) I went through some available recordings of Hughes, Phoebe Smith, and a few others, but didn't find a comparable text.

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 02:40 PM

Sorry to put you out Wm, but Nick Dow is the driving force behind this and he is very familiar with the known Gypsy repertoire so I imagine if it related to other traveller material he would already have spotted it. All of the songs we are currently working on have come from Gypsies. I was already aware from studying collections like MacColl and Seeger, Mike Yates, Gwilym etc., that there was a strong tendency among Gypsies to hybridise songs and to piece together half-forgotten lines from songs. I know this can also be a feature among settled singers but it seems to be particularly prevalent among Travellers.

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 02:47 PM

Not put out at all, Steve. Sounds like there's a good team on this!

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 03:14 PM

Nick is deeply embedded in the Gypsy culture and has recorded some wonderful material himself, which is what I thought we were working on when he asked me to get involved. However, he had in mind some of the more obscure unpublished material in earlier collections for his first volume, with the stuff he has recorded to go into a second volume.

It keeps me out of mischief!

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: GUEST,#
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 03:17 PM

Just found the following. It looks to be a good resource for people looking for info regarding particular song titles:

https://books.google.ca/books?id=UD8rDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA272&lpg=PA272&dq=The+Fause+Knight+upon+the+Road:+A+Reappraisal+John+Minton&so

Scroll down just a page or so to the INDEX. Doesn`t help with this, but it could be worthwhile in future.

Subject: RE: Origins: Another puzzle, Sharp Collection
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 25 Feb 21 - 05:05 PM

There is a You Tube video of the song being sung at Bath Festival by Alison Hull. I agree that there is a debt to the 'Down by the old riverside' tune. If the song is related to Roud 1139 Harry Green sings it as 'As I walked out one ay Morning.' I think Lucy Carter's tune has got the edge. It is all subjective I realise but give the tune a listen and see what you think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfG7fR1RVKI