BS: A language question

Subject: BS: A language question
From: BobL
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 04:32 AM

Nothing to do with music, but there are in this forum some erudite brains for the picking of.

What is the plural of "factotum"?

Factotums? Factota? Facstotum? Or even, "fac" being the imperative singular of the Latin facere, "facete-totum"? None of them sounds quite right.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 04:53 AM

I can't imagine that it's a word I'd ever need, but I think I'd write "factotums." There are times when latinising the plurals of words we've stolen from Latin (or think we have) can seem pretentious (or downright wrong). It's "forums" every time for me ("fora" just seems laughable...). Someone here who shall remain nameless thinks that the plural of "virus" is "viri"... And if you think that anything other than "octopuses" is OK, then you're having a laugh...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 10:55 AM

Clearly the weary
theory of plurali
is only about a series
verily more than one.
You could say 6 fish
or fish fish fish fish fish fish
or 6 fishes.
I believe Meaning trumps Rules
and would proudly call 6 billion
species of viruses

Viri

especially
if it annoys stevie
Most rules are invented arbitrarily
While I would not call taxes taxi
The rule of meaning trumping rules is most freeing.
and has little to do with the eruditi
who often coin there own terms.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 12:04 PM

I'm very flexible when it comes to the evolution of language, but I shall say this only once, Donulthickie: "viri" as the plural of "virus" is just plug wrong. And it's incredibly pretentious to boot.

Ps. When you stop calling me "stevie" I'll step back from my infinite inventiveness in the art of name-calling. Geddit, Donald? (...oops...)

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 12:36 PM

Factota seems ok to me.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 12:42 PM

Fact if I know.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 02:10 PM

At least its less boring stevorino.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 02:17 PM

Since ;factotum' has a Latin origin. I would suggest the plural should be 'factota'.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 04:33 PM

That is the best question to a Jeopardy answer.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: DaveRo
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 05:04 PM

By definition, there is only one factotum.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 05:11 PM

I wondered about that.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 05:17 PM

Once a word has been thoroughly incorporated into English, there is absolutely no need to try to force a latinised plural. Factotum, forum, stadium, aquarium, campus...all English words. All needing an s or an es. All else is risible. Avoid errors, avoid making a fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 06:10 PM

"Datum" has been thoroughly incorporated into English but I have never heard of the Datums Protection Act.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 07:14 PM

I think with that one, Doug, is that "data" is the word that's been thoroughly incorporated...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 09:19 PM

Anyway, the plural is factotums. That's by every available authority, which definitely excludes me.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 12:23 AM

Ah, you are unavailable [grinning]?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 03:53 AM

2) Typogr. A decorative woodblock with a space in the centre for the insertion of an initial capital letter. obs. exc. Hist. L17.

FWIW My SOED CD doesn't offer any pluralii

So how are we data are? If it sounds wrong to you - it ain't.
And the plural of opera ?

Now is there a plural of spatmonger ? We could use such a word in this parish.............

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 04:10 AM

Opera is the plural of opus, but that meaning has been overwhelmed by its use as a singular for the sung musical thingie. In that regard we can see it as an English word, its plural being operas.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 04:21 AM

If the word man derives from human how come the plural of human is not humen?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 04:34 AM

Human derives from Latin humanus, man is a Germanic word.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 06:26 AM

Oxford English Dictionary: the plural of "factotum" is "factotums". Verbum sat sapienti est.
                Season's Greetings, one & all.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 06:53 AM

Ahhhh - Thanks Manitas. But how do you know the Germanic word 'man' was not derived from the Latin humanus too? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 08:36 AM

DaveRo: By definition, there is only one factotum.

Nice try, but untrue. An office may have a factotum, a rich man may have a general factotum.
Two offices, or two rich men will have two factotums/factota. So a plural noun is needed

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: DaveRo
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:43 AM

As a sailor I'm familiar with several datums: Newlyn Ordnance and Other Datums

Data is everywhere - like water. I've noticed that scientists on the radio often say 'data are'. I suspect it's because they had pedantic pedogues marking their work at university.

However, those same scientists also talk of 'data points' - being the individual items of information that comprise data. I've never heard one refer to such an item as a datum.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:50 AM

When referring to an array of Elvis imprsonators, the preferred plural appears to be "Elvi."

Now *that's* risible.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 10:15 AM

Like datum/data, some plurals are much commoner than their singulars. Alumnus/alumni, graffito, graffiti. I noticed a trend a few years ago (M&S being a prime culprit) for some high street stores to singularise stuff that we nearly always refer to in the plural, so on the displays we had trouser, short, knicker, pant, jogger, trainer, scissor...

I have several Asda George shirts that have "Shirting by Asda George" on the label. I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 10:23 AM

I use the word datum when referring to a single, um, datum.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:35 PM

You mean a datum that's single, as in not 'dating'?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 04:53 AM

Surely Elvis is a third declension noun and the plural would be Elves, pronounced Elv-ays?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 05:00 AM

At the end of Soul Music by Terry Pratchett, the hero, Imp-y-Celyn from Llamedos (direct translation of his name is 'Bud of the Holly tree') ends up working in a chip shop. Funnily enough he looks quite Elvish :-D

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 09:43 AM

People who say "Elvi" (mainly on TV) haven't heard of the third declension.

I assume it started as a joke....

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 10:11 AM

Ok reading recipes translated... Abolish from torrefaction, means remove from heat, ya think?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 11:17 AM

Dave the Gnome.
Of course Pratchett's village of Llamedos has a similar derivation to that of Dylan Thomas' Llareggub ;)

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 12:27 PM

Abolish roasting, if it's from French. Down with Roasting!

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 21 - 10:02 PM

So, factotums present factoids?

As to factoid, according to Webster, it does not mean 'fact', as I presumed. Quite the opposite, meaning "misbelief, misconception, myth, old wives' tale, untruth."

That ain't how it's being used.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 10:19 AM

In my experience, "factoid" has also come to mean "a surprising, entertaining fact."

In factoid, my impression is that it's now the usual meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 11:49 AM

It is indeed, Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 03:21 PM

Factoids are as annoying as a hemmor.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 03:57 PM

Q: What’s the difference between a cat and a comma?

A: One has claws at the end of its paws, and the other is a pause at the end of a clause.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 21 - 02:18 PM

And the word Trivia comes from an ancient Roman custom of putting up little news items wherever three roads met...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Dec 21 - 05:41 PM

Opera is the plural of opus, - right on cue. It was rhetorical, but hey!

Now what is the plural of referendum?

Answer - A neverendum. Yes, Yes, Stevie, I do know in this instance.

Octopus? (both)
Index? (both)

Relative rarities like these now take the "ease of cummunication route".
But to be honest I do think we would do better with a more logical spelling syntax. Ain't gonna happen, even GBS couldn't move that a tad.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 21 - 06:57 PM

I'd give referendums and referenda about 50-50, though I think that referendums just about edges it. Octopuses. Nothing else will do unless you're being whimsical. Indices 79%, indexes a harmless 21%. And this is English, the greatest lingo on earth, so let's carry on defying logic. I recall a recent ding-dong with someone here, I forget who, who insisted (being from a medical background) that the plural of cervix simply had to be cervices. I said cervixes. First, I can't ever imagine having to talk about more than one cervix at a time, which, for me, sort of destroys the dispute anyway, and second, if you say "cervices" you're likely to be asked whether you mean Watford Gap or Leicester East.

And I don't know what it is with medics and big pharma with their jargon. My dad proudly told me that he had bilateral pseudophakia. He was deflated when I informed him that it wasn't a disease, it was just that he'd had a new lens in each eye in order to settle his cataracts. I take two medications and I don't know how to pronounce either of them. I've been known to apply anbesol for the occasional mouth ulcer. But how is that pronounced? At least I get a laugh at the chemist's shop. And who in their right mind would go into the chemist's shop and proudly and loudly ask for A TUBE OF ANUSOL, PLEASE!

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 08:20 AM

Steve:
, if you say "cervices" you're likely to be asked whether you mean Watford Gap or Leicester East.

I would have thought the plural would follow the pronunciation of the plural of index, and would thus be pronounced 'Ser-vi-sees'

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:34 AM

Nigel, you are right.

In my family we say Elvi, mattri, waitri, and Fenvi (Fenves being a family name)... We understand each other.

We also say I am you! reassuringly when the family member you are following through a crowd looks back to see if you are still following... That comes from a mistranslation of the French Je te suis.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 01:11 PM

Yebbut Nigel, there's a trend these days for newsreaders, telly reporters and other categories of people who wish to sound "well-spoken" to eschew the usual "izz" pronunciation of those plurals and to employ "eez" instead. What used to be Watford Gap servisizz is now Watford Gap serviseez. At risk of being shot down, I've come to the impression that the main offenders are younger women, the same people who are too lazy to open their mouths properly when they say "book," the upshot being "berk"...

I thereby rest my case...

...And go into hiding...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 01:40 PM

I can't recall hearing anyone refer to motorway (or any other) "serviseez" but, in the same way as book/berk, Joan Bakewell presents a TV programme on Sky Arts which she calls "Portrait Artist of the Yaar".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:13 PM

Plenty of other "es" plurals pronounced that way these days, Doug. Listen out and you'll hear 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:26 PM

how nice to hear Joan Bakewell Tart is still broadcasting, i first heard her dulcet tones back in the mid sixties, which is why she sounds a bit like a queen

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:35 PM

Steve:
You're really reaching now.
Plenty of other "es" plurals pronounced that way these days, Doug. Listen out and you'll hear 'em...

Yep, lots of plurals ending "es" are pronounced as if they were 'ees'
Indices, policies, countries. . .
But unlike your claim for 'services' they are not being mispronounced.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 04:17 PM

Indiceez maybe. But, for me, it's policizz and countrizz every time. Of course, you're a sing-songy Welshman whilst I'm a hard-bitten flat-cap northern git...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 08:40 PM

The first of the affacted "eez" pronunciations I ever heard was "premiseez" as the plural of the logical "premise" as well as the real-estate "premise."

This was way back in the late '70s: in the U.S., of course. I was in grad school at the time.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:47 AM

A few years ago someone on the Stack Exchange site asked about the pronunciation of "processes." Here are a couple of replies:

"parenthesis (singular) has a short last vowel; parentheses (plural) a long one. It helps distinguish the words when pronounced. It is the same for emphasis/emphases."

"The process-eez pronunciation is a hypercorrection, based on the misconception that process belongs to the other class of plurals which you've identified. Latin singular nouns ending in -is are pluralized as -es '-eez': e.g. thesis, theses; axis, axes; metropolis, metropoles. Some of them have only reached us in their plural forms: e.g. menses, testes."

Although the second writer is wrong about "testes" I think that their hypercorrection explanation holds water. What starts as an affectation (as you say) spreads like wildfire and becomes an undesirable and ultimately mainstream hypercorrection. It's an ignorant misconception that we're probably stuck with for ever.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 06:27 AM

As this started from a comment about the pronunciation of the plural of 'cervix', and I then mentioned 'index' as being a similar word. Steve's latest comment seems to totally ignore these to go off on a tangent.
Clearly he has found something in 'stack exchange' which supports his view.
I'll quote from that same source: Stack Exchange
Kenneth Wilson, The Columbia Guide to Standard American English (1993) notes that both plural forms are currently standard in English and then focuses on the idea of "foreign plurals" versus "regular English plurals":

index (n.) has two Standard plurals: indexes (pronounced IN-deks-iz) and indices (pronounced IN-di-SEEZ). See FOREIGN PLURALS [where Wilson makes the following relevant observations: "But when loan words cease to deem foreign, and if their frequency in English increases, they very often drop the foreign plural in favor of a regular English -s. Thus at any given time we can find some loan words in divided usage, with both the foreign plural (e.g., indices) and the regular English plural (e.g., indexes) in Standard use."]

Wilson seems to take the view that, all things else being equal, indexes will eventually win out over indices as index becomes less and less a foreign loan word and more and more a naturalized English word. This same expectation probably underlies Garner's view that insisting on retaining a word's original "foreign plural" form is pretentious once the word (in its singular form) has been fully subsumed into everyday English.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 07:51 AM

....insisting on retaining a word's original "foreign plural" form is pretentious once the word (in its singular form) has been fully subsumed into everyday English.

Is it pretentious to insit on retaining a word's singular form once the plural form has been fully subsumed (as singular) into everyday English?

I will accept "data" as a mass noun, thus giving "the data is ..." rather than "the data are ..."; I don't flinch at "It was decided by the rolling of a dice"; but I draw the line at "one pence".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 09:28 AM

I say PARiss is English and ParEE in French when pronouncing Paris.

Americans who say Budapesht in English sound wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 11:50 AM

My guess is that the familiar "parentheses" was the strongest influence.

On the other hand, most people I've heard (probably including me at times) use "parenthesis" as both singular and plural.

Welshman David Jones's book-length poetic narrative of the Great War is titled "In Parenthesis" (1937).

I believe it must be a shortened version of the older "in a parenthesis," but I doubt many people think of "in parenthesis" as meaning anything other than between round or square brackets.

Fun fact: square brackets were once called "crotchets," "crooks," or "hooks."

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Dec 21 - 04:19 PM

Ah, well, Nigel, one of the delicious beauties of English is its inconsistency. Concerning indexes vs indices, I think I'd probably use the latter, though indexes seems unobjectionable to me. Neither would raise much of an eyebrow. Cervix may be a similar word, but the plural cervices does sound a bit like services (especially in the latter's "serviceez" manifestation). For sheer convenience rather than lexicological correctness, I think it's worth avoiding. Though no big deal.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 06:42 AM

Lighter:
Interesting, and had me checking the various online dictionaries. Adds to the sense of 'learn something new every day'.
Apparently 'parenthesis' is the comment itself, 'parentheses' are the brackets used to enclose a parenthesis.
A parenthesis may also be marked off between dashes (hyphens) or commas.

That's a new one on me.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Dec 21 - 09:46 AM

When you say parenthetical, you're referring to the words, not the brackets around them. I wouldn't say something like "the words in parentheses." I'd say "the words in brackets."

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 12:22 AM

Brackets are square [], parentheses () curved one way, braces {} curved differently.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 04:11 AM

It's fine to call them all brackets. Add modifiers to taste. As I keep saying, standard English is wot people use, so to perdition with the nitpicking naysayers! Merry Christmas (never Xmas from me!)

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 07:00 AM

There's the story of the professor who went up to a couple of his students in the physics lab and and "Have you gentlemen finished your experiments with the pendula?" and got the reply "Yes sir, we're now sitting on our ba doing our sa."

LFF

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 07:08 AM

"Brackets are square []"

"Brackets" without modifier are round () to me. Brackets may also be square [], curly {} and angle <>

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 07:13 AM

I'm with Jon.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 11:06 AM

In the U.S.:

Parentheses: ( )    [OED: 1582]

Braces: { }         [OED: 1656]
            
Brackets: [ ]       [OED: 1750 (or '95); in math, applied as well to
                   parentheses and braces]               
                  

Angle brackets: < > [OED: 1890]

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 11:19 AM

On the current list of threads herein, ( ) beat [ ] by twelve deployments to one. There appears to be neither rhyme nor reason regarding the selection of one or the other of these devices. It's all good.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 04:34 PM

As Jon Freeman said "Brackets are square":

If not things roll off your shelves.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Dec 21 - 08:58 PM

Very true. And the fact that cats are reluctant to go out at night until gently biffed with a rolled-up Radio Times explains why they have square arses.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Dec 21 - 04:25 PM

I did not know that the brackets braces thing was American. I assumed British English because that's what I was taught. Fascinating. A language answer!

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 10:48 AM

I have always used [] for editorial comment and () for explanations.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 04:37 PM

I use those square brackets when I wish to distance myself from some pretentious bugger who I'm quoting but who's just got something egregiously and ignorantly wrong. The device in question is [sic]. Only to deflate the pretentious, mind...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 09:51 PM

Ooh, I use them differently too, and I nest them in this order: ([{}]).

If I am just adding something (an aside, if you will) I use parentheses.

If I am specifying or clarifying I use [square] brackets.

I never just use braces, they are for nesting, to me.

Fascinating.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Dec 21 - 10:08 PM

The usual use of square brackets in the U.S. is to add or clarify something in the middle of a quotation from somebody else.

"Shakespeare's Caesar says, 'Et tu, Brute? [You too, Brutus?] Then fall Caesar!'"

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 11:49 AM

Also to take the place of parentheses within a parenthesis:

"(Gone with the Wind [1939] is a good example of that.)"

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 01:24 PM

I got some braces for Christmas. It's all part of my new 1940s look.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 02:02 PM

"Braces" in the US means the metal contraptions that a dentist attaches in your mouth to straighten your teeth. Or it can be a metal support for a back or like leg-braces for polio victims.

I imagine you mean what we call "suspenders." (Which I'm told in other parts of the English speaking world has another meaning entirely.)

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 06:51 PM

Braces hook on to the front and the back of your trousers and go over each shoulder. They hold your trousers up. Also, you can brace yourself if you see something nasty and sudden about to happen to you. And you can find the sea air bracing (especially at Skegness).

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:38 PM

And you can use a brace with a bit to drill a hole. And if you had two such tools, you would have a brace of braces...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 07:54 PM

I realised that I'd left that out of my post, Jon, and now you've beaten me to it!

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 08:02 PM

And no-one has mentioned a brace meaning "two," as in a brace of grouse. Or, as the royal nobbery might put it, a brace of grice...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 08:03 PM

Oops, yes you did mention it, Jon! :-(

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:06 PM

Brace yourselves, Brits: we find fresh, cool air "bracing" too.

But a "brace" (a pair) usually sounds either very old-fashioned or else literary.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 30 Dec 21 - 09:26 PM

Though, not so old-fashioned. I have been scanning photos from the collection of two local artists here in Fort Worth. They were born in 1942, died in the early 2000s. Real Renaissance men in some of their art interests, including interested in hunting, taxidermy, etc. And photographing all of their activities (to use images in paintings). There are a lot of ducks and geese photos, along with duck blinds, various aspects of hunting trips. One of the recurring images is what has to be called a "brace" of ducks, two of them hanging via a rope or leather cord from a nail in a shed with the wood tones in the background.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 06:46 AM

And you can use a brace with a bit to drill a hole.

She was only the carpenter's daughter,
But she was a 'brazen bit'.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 07:02 AM

Nice one, Nigel. Good job I'm not, er, woke!

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 09:27 AM

What is England English for the orthodontic braces?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 09:38 AM

"But a "brace" (a pair) usually sounds either very old-fashioned or else literary."

(UK) I think the "pair" use of "brace" to refer to game (especially birds) remains current. I also see the word used in sports reporting. In cricket, two wickets in successive balls is a brace (although, in live reporting, it's probably more usual to say the bowler "is on a hat trick") and in football (soccer), a player scoring 2 goals in a game can be said to have scored (or even bagged) a brace.

I doubt it gets much other use.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 09:42 AM

"What is England English for the orthodontic braces?"

Braces. I think we are the same as US on medical types of brace.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 09:46 AM

"I never just use braces, they are for nesting, to me."

Drifting… And I nest braces but that’s in some (python doesn’t use them in this way) of my occasional attempts at programming. I could for example have this:

 if (a==1){
      //insert code for a equalling 1
      if (b==1){
         //code for both a and b equalling 1 
      }
      else {
        //for a equalling 1 and b not equal to 1
      }
  }
  else {
     //for a not equalling 1
  }

That’s easy but I can get quite confused with more levels of nesting. One missing or misplaced brace can be hard to find.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: DaveRo
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 09:52 AM

My parents used to say "in a brace of shakes" to mean "in a short while", "in no time at all".

Perhaps related to "in two shakes if a lamb's tail."

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 31 Dec 21 - 10:41 AM

I regard brace as as colourful and useful word, not at all archaic.

To be a bit more smutty, Dave (you know me...), we often say things like "I'll be with you in two shakes of a donkey's doodah." And, in the gents, "Oi, ,come on, mate. More than two shakes is a w***..."

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: EBarnacle
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 09:05 AM

In hockey, a hat trick is three goals scored by an individual player.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: gillymor
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 09:13 AM

Then there's the Gordie Howe hat trick which is s a goal, an assist, and a fight in the same game.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 09:52 AM

"In hockey, a hat trick is three goals scored by an individual player."

Same as in football (the one played with a round ball, e.g., better than anyone, by Liverpool). In cricket it's a bowler taking three wickets in three successive balls. The latter is fairly rare.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Jan 22 - 11:21 AM

And just to confuse matters, in Tenpin Bowling, three successive strikes is a 'turkey'.