BS: A language question

Subject: BS: A language question
From: BobL
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 04:32 AM

Nothing to do with music, but there are in this forum some erudite brains for the picking of.

What is the plural of "factotum"?

Factotums? Factota? Facstotum? Or even, "fac" being the imperative singular of the Latin facere, "facete-totum"? None of them sounds quite right.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 04:53 AM

I can't imagine that it's a word I'd ever need, but I think I'd write "factotums." There are times when latinising the plurals of words we've stolen from Latin (or think we have) can seem pretentious (or downright wrong). It's "forums" every time for me ("fora" just seems laughable...). Someone here who shall remain nameless thinks that the plural of "virus" is "viri"... And if you think that anything other than "octopuses" is OK, then you're having a laugh...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 10:55 AM

Clearly the weary
theory of plurali
is only about a series
verily more than one.
You could say 6 fish
or fish fish fish fish fish fish
or 6 fishes.
I believe Meaning trumps Rules
and would proudly call 6 billion
species of viruses

Viri

especially
if it annoys stevie
Most rules are invented arbitrarily
While I would not call taxes taxi
The rule of meaning trumping rules is most freeing.
and has little to do with the eruditi
who often coin there own terms.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 12:04 PM

I'm very flexible when it comes to the evolution of language, but I shall say this only once, Donulthickie: "viri" as the plural of "virus" is just plug wrong. And it's incredibly pretentious to boot.

Ps. When you stop calling me "stevie" I'll step back from my infinite inventiveness in the art of name-calling. Geddit, Donald? (...oops...)

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 12:36 PM

Factota seems ok to me.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Rain Dog
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 12:42 PM

Fact if I know.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 02:10 PM

At least its less boring stevorino.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 02:17 PM

Since ;factotum' has a Latin origin. I would suggest the plural should be 'factota'.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 04:33 PM

That is the best question to a Jeopardy answer.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: DaveRo
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 05:04 PM

By definition, there is only one factotum.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 05:11 PM

I wondered about that.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 05:17 PM

Once a word has been thoroughly incorporated into English, there is absolutely no need to try to force a latinised plural. Factotum, forum, stadium, aquarium, campus...all English words. All needing an s or an es. All else is risible. Avoid errors, avoid making a fool of yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 06:10 PM

"Datum" has been thoroughly incorporated into English but I have never heard of the Datums Protection Act.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 07:14 PM

I think with that one, Doug, is that "data" is the word that's been thoroughly incorporated...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Dec 21 - 09:19 PM

Anyway, the plural is factotums. That's by every available authority, which definitely excludes me.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 12:23 AM

Ah, you are unavailable [grinning]?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mr Red
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 03:53 AM

2) Typogr. A decorative woodblock with a space in the centre for the insertion of an initial capital letter. obs. exc. Hist. L17.

FWIW My SOED CD doesn't offer any pluralii

So how are we data are? If it sounds wrong to you - it ain't.
And the plural of opera ?

Now is there a plural of spatmonger ? We could use such a word in this parish.............

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 04:10 AM

Opera is the plural of opus, but that meaning has been overwhelmed by its use as a singular for the sung musical thingie. In that regard we can see it as an English word, its plural being operas.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 04:21 AM

If the word man derives from human how come the plural of human is not humen?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 04:34 AM

Human derives from Latin humanus, man is a Germanic word.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Paterson
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 06:26 AM

Oxford English Dictionary: the plural of "factotum" is "factotums". Verbum sat sapienti est.
                Season's Greetings, one & all.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 06:53 AM

Ahhhh - Thanks Manitas. But how do you know the Germanic word 'man' was not derived from the Latin humanus too? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 08:36 AM

DaveRo: By definition, there is only one factotum.

Nice try, but untrue. An office may have a factotum, a rich man may have a general factotum.
Two offices, or two rich men will have two factotums/factota. So a plural noun is needed

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: DaveRo
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:43 AM

As a sailor I'm familiar with several datums: Newlyn Ordnance and Other Datums

Data is everywhere - like water. I've noticed that scientists on the radio often say 'data are'. I suspect it's because they had pedantic pedogues marking their work at university.

However, those same scientists also talk of 'data points' - being the individual items of information that comprise data. I've never heard one refer to such an item as a datum.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:50 AM

When referring to an array of Elvis imprsonators, the preferred plural appears to be "Elvi."

Now *that's* risible.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 10:15 AM

Like datum/data, some plurals are much commoner than their singulars. Alumnus/alumni, graffito, graffiti. I noticed a trend a few years ago (M&S being a prime culprit) for some high street stores to singularise stuff that we nearly always refer to in the plural, so on the displays we had trouser, short, knicker, pant, jogger, trainer, scissor...

I have several Asda George shirts that have "Shirting by Asda George" on the label. I mean...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 10:23 AM

I use the word datum when referring to a single, um, datum.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: robomatic
Date: 17 Dec 21 - 09:35 PM

You mean a datum that's single, as in not 'dating'?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 04:53 AM

Surely Elvis is a third declension noun and the plural would be Elves, pronounced Elv-ays?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 05:00 AM

At the end of Soul Music by Terry Pratchett, the hero, Imp-y-Celyn from Llamedos (direct translation of his name is 'Bud of the Holly tree') ends up working in a chip shop. Funnily enough he looks quite Elvish :-D

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 09:43 AM

People who say "Elvi" (mainly on TV) haven't heard of the third declension.

I assume it started as a joke....

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 10:11 AM

Ok reading recipes translated... Abolish from torrefaction, means remove from heat, ya think?

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 11:17 AM

Dave the Gnome.
Of course Pratchett's village of Llamedos has a similar derivation to that of Dylan Thomas' Llareggub ;)

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Thompson
Date: 18 Dec 21 - 12:27 PM

Abolish roasting, if it's from French. Down with Roasting!

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Dec 21 - 10:02 PM

So, factotums present factoids?

As to factoid, according to Webster, it does not mean 'fact', as I presumed. Quite the opposite, meaning "misbelief, misconception, myth, old wives' tale, untruth."

That ain't how it's being used.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Lighter
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 10:19 AM

In my experience, "factoid" has also come to mean "a surprising, entertaining fact."

In factoid, my impression is that it's now the usual meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 11:49 AM

It is indeed, Nigel

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 03:21 PM

Factoids are as annoying as a hemmor.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 21 - 03:57 PM

Q: What’s the difference between a cat and a comma?

A: One has claws at the end of its paws, and the other is a pause at the end of a clause.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 21 - 02:18 PM

And the word Trivia comes from an ancient Roman custom of putting up little news items wherever three roads met...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Dec 21 - 05:41 PM

Opera is the plural of opus, - right on cue. It was rhetorical, but hey!

Now what is the plural of referendum?

Answer - A neverendum. Yes, Yes, Stevie, I do know in this instance.

Octopus? (both)
Index? (both)

Relative rarities like these now take the "ease of cummunication route".
But to be honest I do think we would do better with a more logical spelling syntax. Ain't gonna happen, even GBS couldn't move that a tad.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 21 Dec 21 - 06:57 PM

I'd give referendums and referenda about 50-50, though I think that referendums just about edges it. Octopuses. Nothing else will do unless you're being whimsical. Indices 79%, indexes a harmless 21%. And this is English, the greatest lingo on earth, so let's carry on defying logic. I recall a recent ding-dong with someone here, I forget who, who insisted (being from a medical background) that the plural of cervix simply had to be cervices. I said cervixes. First, I can't ever imagine having to talk about more than one cervix at a time, which, for me, sort of destroys the dispute anyway, and second, if you say "cervices" you're likely to be asked whether you mean Watford Gap or Leicester East.

And I don't know what it is with medics and big pharma with their jargon. My dad proudly told me that he had bilateral pseudophakia. He was deflated when I informed him that it wasn't a disease, it was just that he'd had a new lens in each eye in order to settle his cataracts. I take two medications and I don't know how to pronounce either of them. I've been known to apply anbesol for the occasional mouth ulcer. But how is that pronounced? At least I get a laugh at the chemist's shop. And who in their right mind would go into the chemist's shop and proudly and loudly ask for A TUBE OF ANUSOL, PLEASE!

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 08:20 AM

Steve:
, if you say "cervices" you're likely to be asked whether you mean Watford Gap or Leicester East.

I would have thought the plural would follow the pronunciation of the plural of index, and would thus be pronounced 'Ser-vi-sees'

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Mrrzy
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 09:34 AM

Nigel, you are right.

In my family we say Elvi, mattri, waitri, and Fenvi (Fenves being a family name)... We understand each other.

We also say I am you! reassuringly when the family member you are following through a crowd looks back to see if you are still following... That comes from a mistranslation of the French Je te suis.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 01:11 PM

Yebbut Nigel, there's a trend these days for newsreaders, telly reporters and other categories of people who wish to sound "well-spoken" to eschew the usual "izz" pronunciation of those plurals and to employ "eez" instead. What used to be Watford Gap servisizz is now Watford Gap serviseez. At risk of being shot down, I've come to the impression that the main offenders are younger women, the same people who are too lazy to open their mouths properly when they say "book," the upshot being "berk"...

I thereby rest my case...

...And go into hiding...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 01:40 PM

I can't recall hearing anyone refer to motorway (or any other) "serviseez" but, in the same way as book/berk, Joan Bakewell presents a TV programme on Sky Arts which she calls "Portrait Artist of the Yaar".

DC

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:13 PM

Plenty of other "es" plurals pronounced that way these days, Doug. Listen out and you'll hear 'em...

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:26 PM

how nice to hear Joan Bakewell Tart is still broadcasting, i first heard her dulcet tones back in the mid sixties, which is why she sounds a bit like a queen

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 02:35 PM

Steve:
You're really reaching now.
Plenty of other "es" plurals pronounced that way these days, Doug. Listen out and you'll hear 'em...

Yep, lots of plurals ending "es" are pronounced as if they were 'ees'
Indices, policies, countries. . .
But unlike your claim for 'services' they are not being mispronounced.

Subject: RE: BS: A language question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 21 - 04:17 PM

Indiceez maybe. But, for me, it's policizz and countrizz every time. Of course, you're a sing-songy Welshman whilst I'm a hard-bitten flat-cap northern git...