BS: The US and Australia

Subject: BS: The US and Australia
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 05:30 PM

It seems to me; America has a more similar history in common with Australia than the UK.
The similarities between the two nations and social experiments are many; The New South Wales bridge and Brooklyn Bridge, we had Lindberg but Australia had theirs, immigration laws were similar, etc.

Folks in OZ still have an English accent but given 200 more years that will fade. The Great Depression, WWI, and WWII have similar veterans. Australia's fight against Japan and again in Viet Nam and subsequent protests made us more similar.

I could say Chaplin and Australia had their version. Australia opened its arms to Jewish refugees in the late 30s and later in 1947. Women's rights came late to Australia like in the US. along with new immigration laws. We both had a Red scare and a Cold war. We both 'whitewash' our nation's past sins. Racism is similar. We have natives and blacks and you have aborigines. Now we are both multicultural despite conservatives.

We had similar gold rushes. Baseball was American but Cricket was Australia's game. A vintage Cricket game with England became a cultural break with England over their deliberate injury to Australian players. We both are no longer English subjects. Queen Elizabeth rekindled your connection to the failing British Empire. But now what?

YET The US has more ties with English media than Australia. While I know we are united in language, sports, science and music I know very little about Australian current events compared to the UK news. Is it mere distance, the state of Australian media, or just capital?
For now, I thank the internet. Who knows, in another two hundred years of independence, an environmentally ravaged US may envy Australia unless we both burn up. (although the Great Lakes may save us)

Sorry about the American-centric POV and is in no way criticizing the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 05:38 PM

The pointlessness of this rambling post is crystallised by this ridiculous assertion:

"Folks in OZ still have an English accent but given 200 more years that will fade."

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 06:22 PM

As usual Mr. Troll is unhappy.

I think she is cute and is the same age as Steve. Champion

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 06:26 PM

Pointing out your regular ludicrous inaccuracies is hardly trolling.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: GerryM
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 06:46 PM

Sandra in Sydney suggested I have a look at this thread, but what I see has just confirmed my policy of never looking below the line.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 07:14 PM

It's all right, Gerry. As soon as Steve tires of insulting and belittling Donuel, we'll probably get a real conversation going.

Yes, Donuel, I agree with some of what you said although I think we're a bit more open to adjusting our constitution to more modern viewpoints rather than being tied to a constitution which seems to have been set in stone over 200 years ago.

Also, in light of the January 6 events, I have to say that politically motivated, right wing violence is definitely not tolerated here. Or left wing, or any wing, in fact.

And we have lots of political parties, not just two, although two parties most commonly seem to get elected.

Thank the god(s) we don't have fillibustering, too. I only found out about that during the reign of the orange-haired one.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 07:31 PM

You'll be lucky. I spent a little time in Perth a few years ago. The only folks I heard there with "English" accents were British tourists. Over to you if you prefer to listen to the prince of misinformation.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 08:40 PM

All I know is a teeny bit of history and hope to know more.
To an American ear, we hear the difference but Aussies sound on the British side, but that observance has very different meanings to Steve. I do not want to learn about Australia from Steve. I'm sure he thinks he is an expert. I'm looking for honest opinions.
Never been there but it sounds so different and yet similar to the US.
I am happy about the differences in gun laws.

I agree that above the line is for musicologists, music historians, and performers. Below the line is for the curious, current events or braggarts.

What are the Constitutional issues on the only continent with a single nation ?

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 08:49 PM

I'm no expert. I spent a couple of weeks in Perth. I don't need to be an expert to know that you are wrong about accents. You won't learn anything about Australia from me as I know next to nothing about the place. I could tell you about the damage Oz does to the environment which is way out of scale with its population, but maybe not in this thread. I think you could work on improving your knowledge of cricket, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 08:55 PM

Donuel, for a start this is a big issue under discussion this year, after our change of federal government in May:

Push for an Indigenous Voice to Parliament ramps up, as PM promises referendum next financial year.

"More than 60 prominent Indigenous voices gathered for crucial talks with the prime minister on Thursday to discuss the timing, question and education campaign to give First Nations people a constitutionally enshrined say in national affairs."

All Australians who are eligible to vote (Note: voting is compulsory here) will be asked to state their preference and I personally trust the Australian people to say yes, especially after the marriage equality referendum which was a resounding yes in 2017, much to the surprise of some of the conservative government people. A yes vote won't fix everything but it is a step forward, in my opinion.

And, another comment: having compulsory voting for eligible Australians means (in my opinion) that the results are not swayed as much by expensive and extensive advertising campaigns trying to get specific sections of the population to vote. From what I've seen, especially watching the Trumpty-Dumpty "(fake) reality TV" politics, a lot depends in the U.S. on who turns out to vote. Our system has its flaws but as far as I can see, it is less vulnerable to expensive/extensive political advertising.

As to the Aussie accent, that is another story. We recognise our own accent, and we ROTFL hearing British or American epic fails in trying to imitate it.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 29 Sep 22 - 09:01 PM

As I have also said in one of the recent climate change threads, our change of government has now meant that we have a dramatic increase in the likelihood of taking positive steps towards environmental remediation. Not having a government and a PM who are in climate change denial is a huge step forward.

Aussie voters have political fatigue from banging their heads against the brick wall that is conservative climate change denial, and that as well as some other extremely important issues led to the change of government in May.

Also, bear in mind that the population of Oz (26 million) is significantly less than the population of the U.S. (335 million) so the mechanics of politics are massively different.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: GerryM
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 12:24 AM

Helen, I don't see much point in conversation with Donuel. Consider Donuel's statement, "Australia opened its arms to Jewish refugees in the late 30s...." That's hardly accurate. At the Evian Conference of 1938, the Australian delegate T. W. White noted: "as we have no real racial problem, we are not desirous of importing one." Very far from "open arms", closer to a locked door.

The rest of Donuel's opening gambit isn't much better.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 12:25 AM

It sounds like a more civilized course of social change than a George Floyd riot.

Note to Steve's environment rant; I didn't want a pissing contest, but Britain exploded nuclear weapons in Australia because of course they had to be tested - fuck the Aborigines.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 03:02 AM

Sorry, GerryM, I have not heard of the Evian Conference of 1938 and I am not an expert on the history of immigration, however the population diversity of Australia currently is very wide so something must have worked.

Donuel has proposed an interesting concept to be explored. There are probably no completely correct answers, but the concept can be explored.

It's obvious that there are similarities and differences between our two countries. The question is, what are they? And is it worthwhile having a discussion about it?

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 05:21 AM

Environment rant?? This was the sum total of what I said on Oz's environmental credentials:

"I could tell you about the damage Oz does to the environment which is way out of scale with its population..."

But I didn't. I stopped there. Hands up all those who think that that amounts to a rant!

This is always the problem with dealing with Donuel's posts. It takes a lot of processing (if you can be arsed) to sort the wheat from the chaff. I picked out the inaccurate comments about accents and cricket, Gerry picked out the nonsense about Jewish refugees and you wonder, if you delved, what else would turn out to be, to put it kindly, uninformed. It isn't a good starting point for a decent discussion.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 05:57 AM

A good starting point for a decent discussion would be reviewing the

Definition of decent

1 : marked by moral integrity, kindness, and goodwill
2a : conforming to standards of propriety, good taste, or morality
b : modestly clothed
3 : free from immodesty or obscenity
4 : fairly good : adequate, satisfactory

So, for example, having a discussion without resorting to insulting others, or belittling others, or name-calling, or casting slurs on another's country, or any of your usual behaviours exhibited in your discussions.

It would also require a balanced approach to evaluating the content of a discussion and providing opinions, for and against, based on the content instead of turning it into personal attacks.

I'd like to see that.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 06:25 AM

I'd also put under the heading "decent" some consideration for your readers, making sure that what you post is sound, accurate and based on the fact you've done a little homework so that you don't end up spouting uninformed statements. A good opening post along those lines is a great starting point for a discussion. It isn't a great starting point when the poster hasn't had the good grace to ensure that you're not mired in delving into what he says before you can trust a single word of it.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 08:55 AM

"Folks in OZ still have an English accent" ???

What utter ignorance! Any proud Australian would be insulted by that. As a northern English bloke I am even more insulted that anyone thinks I sound like Crocodile Dundee...

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 09:11 AM

Mind you, the statement did come from an Amarican who probably thinks that Dick Van Dyke's accent in Mary Poppins is English as well :-D

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 09:20 AM

”Mind you, the statement did come from an Amarican who probably thinks that Dick Van Dyke's accent in Mary Poppins is English as well :-D”

….whereas, in fact, Dick van Dyke’s dreadful ‘Cockney’ accent sounds closer to an Aussie accent than English.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 10:29 AM

The US compared to Australian immigration in 1937 was that the US refused Jews aboard the ship St. Louis to disembark. Australia did not refuse a different ship of Jewish refugees. It was one ship but it was something in comparison. War immigrants didn't generaly resume until 1947.

I did not realize accent is of such importance. Then I realized that certain American southern accents make my skin crawl. I have the prejudice bug as well, from a Yankee point of view! English accents are usually pleasant to my ear.
I think stereotypes hide in our psyche in plain view no matter how we try to be inclusive. Queen Elizabeth's dad had a bit of trouble with his Aussie speech coach in 'The King's Speech' but became long-time friends.

Hey! Dick Van Dyke is still dancing and is from my hometown. He went to high school with my mom. :^/

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: robomatic
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 12:22 PM

I have never been to Australia (and would LOVE to see it) but I have a wonderful memory of talking to a cockney Jew in Auckland: "Oi tink I'll find moi woi back to England evenchuallie... there's joost no' enuff YIDDISHEKOIT 'ere in Nyoo Zeeland!"

And that was before they outlawed 'Kosher' butchering.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 01:06 PM

We were in a gift shop in Perth, buying I-don't-remember-what. The young woman assistant who was helping us said "no worries!" to us approx. 20 times during the two minutes of the transaction... We also noticed the large number of such shops that were selling little "leather" pouches that were ostensibly made from kangaroo scrotums...

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 01:17 PM

I bought one of them pouches to keep my baccy in. Could never roll a cigarette with it though coz it kept jumping all over the place.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 01:17 PM

Just checking: you DO know that Paul Hogan's Crocodile Dundee character was a caricature, don't you?

Paul Hogan notably began his comedic career on a TV talent show caricaturing a "typical" Aussie bloke. The character was over the top and designed to make us all laugh. Very much like Valérie Lemercier's brilliantly funny portrayal in Astérix and Obélix: God Save Britannia of an English woman speaking French with the most appalling English accent - one of the funniest caricatures I have ever seen. It makes me laugh no matter how many times I see it. I think of the French term for the English people, "les rosbifs" whenever I see that movie.

A key point is that Aussies like to laugh at ourselves.

For more on English language variations and accents around the world, this documentary and the book is brilliant: The Story of English

"Encompassing history, geography, sociology, drama, language, arts, and more, The Story of English takes viewers on an unforgettable journey through the history of the English language. Host Robert MacNeil travels the world to illustrate the language's global influence. Part travelogue, part linguistics, part history, and all fascinating, the series is a unique blend of solid scholarship and engrossing entertainment."

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 01:29 PM

I saw a whole rack of those pouches in a shop. I thought to myself, "What a load of bollocks."

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 01:46 PM

And now back to the discussion, as proposed by the OP.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 02:12 PM

Helen, of course I know but I chose to use Dundee rather than Hogan on the basis that more people would know the former.

Now my turn for a stupid question. Do you seriously think that only Aussies can laugh at themselves? And did you know that the Asterix cartoons were originally in French?

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 02:31 PM

Which bit of the discussion? (Oops, lost me focus slightly there...)

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 02:58 PM

It was the French version I was referring to. Listening to Valérie Lemercier's take on an English mangling of French is a scream.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 03:39 PM

It is indeed funny but has little relevance to the discussion. Like Renee's accent in 'Allo 'Allo or Manuel's in Fawlty Towers, they are not real.

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 03:56 PM

Yes, but Crocodile Dundee's accent is not real either. And how many Brits go to France and sound exactly like Valérie Lemercier?

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Helen
Date: 30 Sep 22 - 04:47 PM

Dave the Gnome, I didn't say *only* Aussies can laugh at themselves. OMG, just imagine a world without Monty Python!!

Subject: RE: BS: The US and Australia
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Oct 22 - 04:52 PM

Some say Monty Python was ahead of their time but I think they were just in time.
I have seen the censored out takes from 'Life of Brian'
You can't unsee those scenes.