MBE and FolkMusic

Subject: MBE and Folk Music
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 05 Jul 23 - 04:48 PM

Member of The British Empire award, does receiving one of these give Folk Music the establishment stamp of approval, has it become establishment music?
I was under the impression that this music was anti establishment,
I was IMPRESSED that John Lennon wrote"I am returning my MBE as a protest against Britain’s involvement in the Nigeria-Biafra thing, against our support of America in Vietnam and against ‘Cold Turkey’ slipping down the charts.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,Oriel
Date: 05 Jul 23 - 05:15 PM

Some folk performers are happy to accept an establishment pat on the head. It doesn't devalue the music, just the people who accept an 'honour'.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 05 Jul 23 - 05:47 PM

I like folk music but would not describe myself as anti-establishment. I certainly don't use music to try and change the world. There are lots of things I would like to see change to make it a more fair and equitable society, but by consensus, not revolution.

One thing I would like to see consigned to the dustbin, however, is the honours system and the sooner, the better. The big names in politics/sport/music/theatre/business etc. get paid handsomely for their efforts. They don't need knighthoods a d the like. I suppose a case could be made those working quietly in the background, encouraging others but for every token MBE given out for service to the community, there are hundreds of unsung people equally deserving of recognition.

DC

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 06 Jul 23 - 04:58 AM

here is a quote from the Guardian obituary of MacColl
"The champion of “the people’s music” was invariably hostile to the music that people actually loved. He viewed pop as a capitalist plot
end of quote.

    Ewan   MacColl, Leon Rosselson Peggy Seeger AND OTHERS have all written contemporary folk songs that have crIticised the status quo this created an impression for me that a sizeable proprtion of the repertoire was anti establishment


Martin Carthy sang a song which was originally written by Leon Rosselson in response to the Aberfan Disaster of 1966 in which a coalmine's spoil heap collapsed on to a school in wales

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,Oriel
Date: 06 Jul 23 - 08:04 AM

Martin Carthy and his daughter have both accepted these 'honours'. No matter what they sing, their actions don't match their words.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,Jim mclea
Date: 11 Jul 23 - 03:23 PM

The Scottish folk scene is rife with MBEs although Hamish Henderson and Marion Blythman both refused.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,Jim McLean
Date: 11 Jul 23 - 03:25 PM

The above post was from me….I keep getting logged out of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 11 Jul 23 - 06:21 PM

The honours are usually proposed by people who know them and the value of their work. That is why they accept them.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Sol
Date: 11 Jul 23 - 07:57 PM

I'm sure there are thousands of people that haven't been 'proposed' who have contributed more than their fair share to society as a whole - the REAL unsung heroes. For every bona fide person honoured, there's a charleton who has been gifted a gong for no other reason than being a 'celeb' or a faithful pawn in the big game. The honours list IMO, is our equivalent of the farcical Oscars.
Personally, I'd rather get more satisfaction from a pat on the back from my collegues than a piece of metal from someone who had no idea I even existed ..... but then again, that's just me. :-)

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jul 23 - 07:33 AM

The discussion of the honours system in general belongs, more properly, below the line. What gives this thread its musical content is the assertion folk music is, by its nature, anti-establishment and a folk musician accepting an honour is contradictory.

I think it is more a case of folk music being used by some as a vehicle to push their anti-establishment views. Admittedly, there are plenty of songs about mining or other forms of labour were the capitalist bosses are the villains. Equally, there are lots of songs bewailing the loss of those self-same activities due to the greed of the capitalist system.
But there are a whole host of songs about drinking, lovers, unrequited love, murders, execution, songs of the sea, nostalgia for one's homeland, fair maids and gallant knights, cheating lovers, trains, the military, the countryside, jobs that people are happy to do, troublesome family - I'm sure there are plenty more - that are not anti-establishment.

DC

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 23 - 07:48 AM

Doug - It has become the norm of late for those who are prevented from posting below the line to raise any topic as above the line as long as it contains a passing mention of folk and/or music ;-)

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jul 23 - 09:03 AM

I realise that, Dave, but I think that the the contention that folk music is anti-establishment is worthy of discussion, so long as it doesn't turn into "what is folk?".

DC

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 12 Jul 23 - 09:17 AM

:-D

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Jul 23 - 10:13 AM

I came in to this music for a number of reasons ,but one of them was that it was anti establishment,
in the 1960s this music was anti establishment. A number of folk perfomers were seen on CND marches.
a bit later Peggy Seeger wrote a song called Carry Greenham Home
Hers is a quote from EFDSS
Citation for Dave and Maggie Hunt
It is unlikely that the people assembled here in Abbots Bromley will not
know of Dave and Maggie Hunt and have some appreciation of their
status not only in the folk world but also on its fringes. This Gold Badge
Award gives us the opportunity to look back on two varied careers that
have, separately and together, brought richness to folk music and
community arts over many years. It also provides the opportunity to learn
things about the two of them that perhaps were not apparent because
you’ve only came across them in one of their guises.
In the words of a non-folk song, ‘Let’s start at the very beginning – a very
good place to start!’
Like many of us, Dave came to folk music in the 50s via Skiffle, and
given its relationship to American folk music there was a natural
progression to English folk music and that of its neighbours. The CND
marches of his youth also provided a basic repertoire, but early
exposure, via work at the Edinburgh Festival, to the likes of Rae and
Archie Fisher, Bobby Campbell and Gordie McCulloch, Hamish Imlach,
Norman Kennedy, and more started to broaden his knowledge.
HERE IS ANOTHER QUOTE FROM AUTHOR JON NEWY, FROM AM ARTICLE IN jAZZWISE. Entitled Aldermaston anti nuclear marches
   Committed marcher, folk singer/activist Peggy Seeger says of the marches, “Every 100 yards or so you had a different kind of band - jazz, blues, skiffle, West Indian.” And it was the trad jazz bands that made the most noise, notably the joyous New Orleans parade jazz stomp of Ken Colyer’s Omega Brass Band and the madcap Alberts (including Bruce Lacey and Jeff Nuttall) who regularly led the marches, their music beaming out a rousing ‘life over death’ message and sowing the seeds of the mid-1960s counter-culture to come."
I was there and on those marches and i remember that folk music at that time was anti establishment.
So i have provided some evidence that the Ehglish Folk revival in its early days was Anti Establishment.
Doug Chadwick it is up to you to provide evidence that it was not anti establishment .

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 12 Jul 23 - 10:50 AM

I am referring to the song side of the UK Folk Revival, not the Dance side. the EFFDSS at that time was known jokingly as THE ENGLISH DANCE AND FORGET about Song, even though they did organise a few song festivals, but much was going on songwise that did not involve the EFDSS The Dance aspect of EFDSS as i remember it was more Establishment and middle class.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,groovy
Date: 12 Jul 23 - 10:59 AM

Brilliant - pure frontier gibberish at its best!

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 12 Jul 23 - 03:58 PM

“Every 100 yards or so you had a different kind of band - jazz, blues, skiffle, West Indian.” And it was the trad jazz bands that made the most noise, notably the joyous New Orleans parade jazz stomp of Ken Colyer’s Omega Brass Band and the madcap Alberts (including Bruce Lacey and Jeff Nuttall) who regularly led the marches, their music beaming out a rousing ‘life over death’ message and sowing the seeds of the mid-1960s counter-culture to come."

No mention of folk music. It's trad jazz that gets the top billing.

DC

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 03:37 AM

Blues and skiffle are what i consider folk music.and what people like Alan Lomax considered folk music
Doug Chadwick you have not provided any evidence that the uk folk song revival was NOT ANTI ESTABLISHMENT.
   I remember on those marches, songs being made up which would fit the 1954 defintion, and songs like we shall over come, which was popularised by pete seeger and adaptions of folk songs which would fit the 1954 definition. eg "which side are you on"
can you provide evidence that the uk folk song revival was not anti establishment.
Performers of the uk folk song revival such as Roy Bailey, Leon Rosselson,Peggy Seeger Peter Bond Ewan MacColl.and others all wrote songs that were critical of the Establishmentand i remeber these songs being sung in the uk folk revival clubs

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 03:45 AM

correction of typo
And I remember these songs being sung in the uk folk revival SONG clubs

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,RJM
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 03:51 AM

Doug ,
What is the message of Which Side Are You On?
Of the many songs born out of labor strife in America's coal mines, Florence Reece's classic 1931 union song, "Which Side Are You On?" is one of the best known. Written in response to a violent strike in Harlan County, Kentucky, the song roused people across the nation in support of the right to organize.
I was on those marches were you?
I heard that song and adaptions that would fit the 1954 definitionCome, all you good workers
Good news to you I'll tell
Of how the good old union
Has come in here to dwell
Which side are you on, boys?
Which side are you on?
My daddy was a miner
He's now in the air and sun
He'll be with you fellow workers
Until the battle's won
Which side are you on, boys?
Which side are you on?
They say in Harlan County
There are no neutrals there
You'll either be a union man
Or a thug for J. H. Claire
Which side are you on, boys?
Which side are you on?
Oh, workers can you stand it?
Oh, tell me how you can
Will you be a lousy scab
Or will you be a man?
Which side are you on, boys?
Which side are you on?
Don't scab for the bosses
Don't listen to their lies
Poor folks ain't got a chance
Unless they organize
Which side are you on, boys?
Which side are you on?

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 04:01 AM

Dick, Doug has not asserted that the folk music revival was not anti-establishment. He says that he thinks that it "is more a case of folk music being used by some as a vehicle to push their anti-establishment views" and that there are plenty of songs that are not anti-establishment. Why on earth should he provide evidence for something he has not said?

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 04:58 AM

I came in to this music for a number of reasons ,but one of them was that it was anti establishment,

Being born and brought up in Liverpool, my introduction to folk music was through the Spinners. My first two folk LPs were 'Folk at the Phil' and 'More Folk at the Phil', recorded live at the Philharmonic Hall, Liverpool and released in 1965. Out of the 29 tracks, only one, 'Strangest Dream', could be described as remotely anti-establishment, being a very gentle anti-war song. Indeed, one of the others was 'John Peel'. How much more establishment can you get than a song about fox hunting. Of the rest, there were some Child ballads, a couple set in Liverpool, half a dozen or so shanties/songs about the sea, one about whiskey, one about the railways, and several light hearted songs with sing-along choruses.

DC

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 08:48 AM

How much more establishment can you get than a song about fox hunting.

Allan Lomax - U.S. government issue librarian for one.

...does receiving one of these give Folk Music the establishment stamp of approval, has it become establishment music?

+99.99% of the consumer answers will be... who? Order of what...?. The remainder will be split about 3:1 on the "Yea" side, one consumer at a time.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 11:21 AM

from wiki on aldermaston cnd marches quote
Songs

Music was a significant part of the march, at first symbolising the difference in attitude between the CND leaders, who wanted to march in silence, and the youth on the march led by Pat Carty, the first "Youth" Secretary for the CND, who wanted to sing and play guitars. John Brunner's song, The H-bomb's Thunder became the unofficial anthem of CND, .[12] Songs associated with CND and the Aldermaston march were released on an EP record, Songs from Aldermaston (1960)[13] and an LP album, Songs Against the Bomb (Topic 12001) released at about the same time. It contained: "Brother Won't you Join the Line?" (McColl and Keir, 1958); "The Crooked Cross" (McColl and Seeger, 1960); "Strontium 90" (Dallas, 1959); "Hey, Little Man" (Dallas, 1959); "Doomsday Blues" (Dallas, 1958); "The Ballad of the Five Fingers" (McColl, 1959); "There are Better Things to Do" (Seeger, 1958); "The H-Bomb's Thunder" (Brunner, 1958); "Song of Hiroshima" (Kinoshita); "Hoist the Window" (trad. arr. Hasted, 1952); "That Bomb Has Got to Go" (McColl and Seeger, 1959); "The Dove" (trad. arr. Rosselson); and "The Family of Man" (Dallas, 1957). A new arrangement of H-bomb's Thunder was issued on a CD, Songs To Change The World (Peaksoft PEA012) in 2011.

Ewan MacColl's English text of Song of Hiroshima was sung on the Aldermaston Marches by the London Youth Choir.[14] An unofficial peace version of the National Anthem of the United Kingdom was written in 1958 by Henry Young for the first Aldermaston March and is taken from Young's collection of poems From Talk to Action: The fight for peace.

The marches inspired work from a number of other musicians, notably Matt McGinn's "On the Road to Aldermaston".

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 11:26 AM

Fox hunting is illegal in England, Scotland and Wales.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 11:51 AM

Fox hunting is illegal in England, Scotland and Wales.

It wasn't back in 1965. It was a pastime of the landed gentry.

DC

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 11:54 AM

The other point about songs and their performance, is that if the performer gives in their introduction some pointers about their opinion on the subject of the song, it changes the audience perception.
example, a whaling song can be introduced in a certain way to make it clear that the singer is not in favour of whaling.

If fox hunting has been banned in england and wales since 2004 and in scotland since 2002 ,and we are now in the year 2023, it would appear that the establishment has not approved of fox hunting for 20years.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,flopflip
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 12:05 PM

Are the anonymous guest posts above all from the same person or from a group of similarly interested correspondents?

Is Guest RJM above the same person as the rjm who posted in 2009 or the RJM who posted in 2011?

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 01:10 PM

Point of order: Fox hunting was banned by a Labour government. The Establishment is Tory, and the recidivistic wing is still largely pro-fox-hunting on the QT; the party is just a trifle busy at the moment, and the protesters have largely moved on to annoying fly fishers and (now) the horse-racing fraternity.

I could go further, but *that* discussion belongs below the line.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 01:10 PM

They are probably all the same person, flopflip. RJM are his initials.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 01:31 PM

In my copy of 'The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem Song Book', copyright 1964, there are 7 Irish rebel songs which can reasonably be described as anti-establishment. But then again, there are 7 songs about booze and 9 songs relating to the sea. There are a couple of highwayman songs which could be added to the anti-establishment list but, even so, they make up less than 20% of the total.

I am not saying that anti-establishment songs don't exist in the folk music repertoire - just that they only form a part of it and the majority of folk songs are not anti-establishment. Posting lists of songs associated with the Aldermaston marches won't change this fact.

DC

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 01:32 PM

It's Dick. The best he's allowed is Guest.

The outdated initials MBE may not appeal to all (including me), but nominations for the award are made by ordinary people, not the establishment in-crowd. I like the idea that individuals who have gone over and above to serve their communities can receive an award that recognises them and which has been suggested by people in their communities. OK, it's arbitrary and it has to get the nod from the big knobs, but I still like it. Above the level of MBE, no thanks, and, as for most of our knights and dames, I'd cheerfully send most of them on small boats to an isle of exile.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: GUEST,Phil d'Conch
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 03:46 PM

If fox hunting has been banned in... &c &c &c.

I was under the impression that this music was anti establishment,

So where have all the lefty-folkie, anti establishment, PRO fox hunting folk songs been for the last twenty years? Reads like the same old, same old, sort of common ground and stamps of establishment approval that put Moe Asch's Folkways albums in every American public library coast-to-coast. Pete Seeger, Woody Guthrie &c. have been institutional/establishment A&R for over a half century now.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 04:16 PM

I come from Lincolnshire. home of Joseph Taylor - a veritable home of English folksong - though of course, folksong has many homes in England.

Despite the anti establishment current running through something like Rufford Park Poachers - the agricultural communities always seemed deeply conservative to me. Certainly Boston, where I come from always returned a tory MP.

I suspect some folksong is antiestablishment and some isn't. I think some people who have devoted their lives to the art and craft of folk music would like a token of recognition from a grateful nation, and some couldn't give a stuff.
Perhaps if you want an MBE, you should ask. Then there would be no more confusion, and no need for resentment - sort of why didn't I get one? (something I heard several times when Martin took his.)

Then if you got one, you'd be happy. And if they said, "MBE for a scuffler like you - piss off!" At least you would know where you stand.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 04:39 PM

I'm all for ordinary people who serve their communities selflessly and over-and-above getting MBEs. I feel completely the opposite for people getting automatic knighthoods because they're ex-ministers, or thieving businessmen, or rock stars, film stars or fashion icons whose chief merit is that they've made a lot of money, usually involving very dodgy, amoral, entitled private lives. That's why the honours system stops with MBEs for me.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 04:54 PM

Where the ‘Honours System’ is concerned, I can only echo Rhett Butler’s final words to Scarlett O’Hara in ‘Gone With The Wind’ - “Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a damn”.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 23 - 06:56 PM

It's a bit daft asking if folkies are pro-or anti-establishment. We all live under capitalism and most of us put money in capitalist banks, even folkies (if they have any). You either breathe the polluted air or you stop breathing on principle and die. As the great self-sufficiency guru John Seymour (no leftie was he) said, you might be in the system but you don't have to be of the system. There's no need to try to hold folk singers to standards that it doesn't occur to us to hold other groups of people to. Let 'em be!

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Hagman
Date: 14 Jul 23 - 12:58 AM

Notable MBEs include Martin and Eliza Carthy (as Oriel has noted above) plus Norma Waterson, Shirley Collins and Bob Copper. Richard Thompson was singled out for an OBE. And don't forget Sir Ringo Starr and the honorary Knighthoods to Bob Geldolf and Bono.

I'm sure they're all comfortable with the recognition, regardless of their personal politics, otherwise they wouldn't have accepted it. Honours are awarded by both side of politics.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 14 Jul 23 - 05:25 AM

I suppose you could argue that "both sides of politics" are parts of the establishment, but I share your sentiment that it's fine if the honoured folkies are fine with it. I might have issues with pop knights (Bono definitely grates...) but I assign little value to anything above MBE anyway.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Jul 23 - 02:08 PM

Luckily this problem has not presented itself as a major problem to many of us.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Hagman
Date: 14 Jul 23 - 09:33 PM

Arise, Baron Big Al of Whittle.....

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Mr Red
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 03:15 AM

To the OP, it all depends on your stance on "the esbtalishment".

And your definition of "what is folk". Cue endless debates on both.

FWIW there are possible too many gongs handed-out, it devalues the kudos that can be extracted from them.

It is a political tool wielded by both sides, to curry favour with their electorate, or the middle ground in the majority of cases, to be more accurate.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Hagman
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 04:38 AM

Er, yes, Paul Collingwood for making 17 runs in a Test match. (But then, I'm a colonial commoner, so I'm allowed to be irate.....)

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 05:33 AM

It is a political tool, but the lower down the order you go the less political it is. MBEs and BEMs are unpolitical enough for me. I just wish they were called summat more sensible.

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 03:36 PM

Great idea Steve!,,,,,
How about TPHDGS
THis Person has Done Good Stuff

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 04:08 PM

That'll do for now. I'll work on an acronym...

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 04:08 PM

How about TBHP - Token Bauble for the Hoi Polloi.

DC

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 04:21 PM

ARCH: A Real Community Hero

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 04:25 PM

For Unknown Creative Kindness?

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 23 - 05:39 PM

Totally Inspirational Top Superstars

Subject: RE: MBE and FolkMusic
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Jul 23 - 04:32 AM

Great Offer of Nice Gift