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Healing Circle please...revisited
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Subject: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Kristi H Date: 20 Jan 00 - 09:34 PM Hello new friends that have shown their support for our friend, JU. There is a local, Orlando, FL, benefit being planned for JU on February 6th. I had received a message from a caring person todonate a silver bracelet for our benefit concert and fund-raiser. To the person that made this offer, please mail me at Upsala1@aol.com if you are still interested in this endeavor. I apologize for not responding when the offer was made. Regarding JU's current status. It looks like they will be in Chicago through March. He is still standing strong and determined to make it. His biggest struggle currently is to not let radiation burns keep him from eating. If he can't eat. He will get a tube in his stomach to feed him. He doesn't want that. He told me tonight that he always knew he was stubborn for a reason. He goes back in to the hospital on Sunday for round three. Upsala has our second performance without the Lee's this Saturday at the Yeehaw Junction bluegrass Festival/Friends of Florida Folk annual meeting. I would love to meet any Mudcatters that can make it out to Yeehaw Junction on Saturday. Another attraction is to see Paul G's band Ashley Gang perform, in addition to Mindy Simmons, and a bunch of other great Florida performers. Thanks for all the emotional support. While there is no scientific proof that community support will help an ill person get well, the unconditional support has helped me tremoundously. Naysayers be damned, and ignored, when one is hurting, knowing that others care IS imprtant. Thank You, Kristi |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Áine Date: 20 Jan 00 - 09:39 PM Dear Kristi, Thank you for the update of JU. Whatever any 'naysayer' posts on this thread, my family is still keeping JU and his family in our thoughts and prayers. Please tell him that there are still many people here at the Mudcat pulling for him. -- Áine |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Lonesome EJ Date: 20 Jan 00 - 09:49 PM Kristi, glad to hear JU is holding up, and congratulations on having the guts to post this thread. You, I'm sure, realize that you are going to catch more nasty comments from the local trolls. Ignore them and keep up the positive attitude. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: catspaw49 Date: 20 Jan 00 - 09:55 PM Kristi, I like Aine, am somehow reminded of the situation daily and my good thoughts, however much of a pittance they are, are certainly still with JU. Perhaps its as simple as empathy from one who's been there, or somewhere similar. He has lots of support and tell him there are some here at the 'Cat who, though we don't know him, know him through you and can share a little in the times he is having. My best to all.
Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Saint Nick Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:00 PM Thank you EJ...for being "so insenitive" to a "newcomer."
I am far from a troll, my spouse finds me rather atracitve. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: bbelle Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:00 PM Kristi ... Pete Peterson sang a song in JU's honor at annap's gathering last weekend ... it was a wonderful railroad song (cannot remember the name!)... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Kristi H Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:12 PM After I came on and posted this evening, I went on and read all the crap that's been going on. I haven't yet managed to discover what the congrat's Max post is about. I just walked in blindly, as always. For me, music is very emotionally based. Music was emotional for me long before I learned to perform on an instrument or began to sing. I listened and sang along long before I learned to play. Because of my own personal history with music, it is important to me in all facets of my life. I wake up to music and go to sleep to it. Because of this, when the person that I feel has had the most important muscial effect in my life is ill, it is worth talking about. I don't separate my music from the rest of my life. It is all part of the whole of who I am. I don't know or really care who's toes I am stepping one here. Sometimes music takes a back seat to other events in life and this is one of those times for me. I can't sit and talk about only music while one of my best friends and one of lif's great musicians is in crisis. This site has given me much in the few weeks that I have been here, both musically and emotionally. To me, that's what makes it a site that I will visit daily for as long as I have a computer. Every thread has a heading, I understood that was to let people know what was being discussed on that thread. If you aren't interested, there's lots of other threads to go to. I have participated in lots of threads that aren't related to healing. I read even more. Lots more. If the mainstays of this site don't want anyone talking about anything except the technical aspects of music, let me know and I will leave. If there is no feeling in music, what do you have? A bunch of dead notes on a page. I think music is about more than that. Kristi |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: bbelle Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:20 PM Kristi ... very well said. The issue is a bit more complicated, however, there is a bond which music forges between individuals and it is steeped in emotion. Even amongst those who are most opposed to an issue, the emotions brought about by word of an ailing fellow musician are heartfelt and strong ... moonchild |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: MMario Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:22 PM Kristi - per Max, (and he owns the site so he has the last word) the BS/OS/etc is okay. There are some who do not like it, and there are a few who not only do not like it but are vocal/verbal and at times NASTY about not liking it. Your post above is one reason why I am in favor of the mix. May the music of life support you, whether from the back seat, beside you or within you. May it bear you up when your strength fails, and may it take you to new heights when you soar. MMario |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Paul G. Date: 20 Jan 00 - 10:25 PM Kristi, you said the words I could only feel and never manage to express. Thank you. JU is part of the music and therefore part of us...part of you, part of me. See you Saturday. Paul |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST,saint nick Date: 20 Jan 00 - 11:19 PM Mario....
Like you....been to lots of Wakes.....
Where I don't remember the name....when I wake. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 00 - 12:53 AM Translate |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: AllisonA(Animaterra) Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:43 AM Kristi, you've expressed so well why I support and sometimes contribute to so-called BS threads. The music is the glue that binds us, the other off-music topics are part of why I stay. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: clare s Date: 21 Jan 00 - 12:14 PM Kristi H, I wish your friend well, but have no intention of getting into this debate. If I can offer you a simple tip - try breaking your post into short paragraphs. It makes for much easier reading. Regards Clare |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: many Date: 21 Jan 00 - 01:14 PM Some of you really haven't got the idea yet, have you? To quote a recent message from Max (the very kind and liberal guy who runs this site): "I think the healers got the message by now. THIS IS A MUSIC SITE" If you want healing circles, here are a few places to start:
To reiterate: THIS IS A MUSIC SITE
Hope you find the links useful.
Many
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: many Date: 21 Jan 00 - 01:28 PM mmm, and to think I get payed money to teach HTML |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Metchosin Date: 21 Jan 00 - 01:51 PM Does this mean that the Pub and Tavern threads have to go too? |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: MMario Date: 21 Jan 00 - 02:03 PM quoting out of context is such a fun excercise.... |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: clare s Date: 21 Jan 00 - 02:03 PM Apologies for the ineptitude of my previous post. These links should prove helpful. One of these will hopefully bring you a better outlet for your healing needs than the Mudcat ever can. All the best Many |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Metchosin Date: 21 Jan 00 - 02:04 PM My very best wishes to you Kristi and JU for a speedy recovery. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: catspaw49 Date: 21 Jan 00 - 02:48 PM Kinda' screwed up there with your cookie didn't you clare...uh, I mean "Many"...........Got to be confusing having so many different identities. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST,Paul G. (away from home) Date: 21 Jan 00 - 03:14 PM clare/many/st.nick/other assorted schizophrenics Explain to me why, if you are so put off by the BS/OS/Healing threads, you don't simply stay the hell out of them? I suspect the reason is that you take some kind of perverse pleasure in the anonymous annoyance you create. I certainly don't see the pure music threads being crowded out. There's plenty of room here. If you don't like the thread then ignore it and cease the perpetuation of the turmoil YOU are creating here. You're like a gang of serial harrassers that get your jollies by creating this kind of stupid irritation. Just leave it be if it bothers you .... or jump back in and prove my point. PG |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Jan 00 - 03:32 PM No please "clare/many/st.nick/other assorted" don't answer here. Start another thread carefully labelled - oh I don't know, maybe " Total BS - Stalker's Corner".
There might be lots of you and you could have a lovely time playing with each other. Or there might be only one of you, and you could have an even better time playing with yourself.
And you could take all the time and space you want explaining exactly what you are trying to do to the Mudcat, and why you feel entitled to do it, and anyone who is interested could come and read it, and maybe even respond.
And if you want to remind us from time to time that you are still in business, just leave a blue clicky thing in the other threads directing us your way.
But whatever you're engaged in, it certainly isn't Music - and if you think Healing is out of place on a Music Site, I think most people would agree that Hurting is a lot more out of place. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: katlaughing Date: 21 Jan 00 - 03:48 PM Kristi, still sending wanda, J.U. and you all the best. Why are any of you good people still giving the negative attention it craves? Ignore it. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Wesley S Date: 21 Jan 00 - 04:05 PM I have to agree with Kat. The best way to treat a 2 year old with a temper tantrum is to ignore them. Another solution is start a "Healing Thread For Those Who Trash Healing Threads" {also known as THTHT }. I would think it would work on many levels. Those who enjoy healing threads would be able to give out energy to those who need it the most. Those people who have been offended by THTHT would be able to heal themselves { "Forgive us our tresspasses as we forgive those who tresspass against us " } But more importantly, THTHT would know that they are being talked about which is appearently what they crave the most. Attention that they are lacking in their real life - which is why they come here. I'm guessing - I'm not a shrink. { By the way - do any of them START music threads ? } As for me - I plan to pray for them off line and then ignore them. |
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Subject: My Opinion From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jan 00 - 04:48 PM This really is a difficult situation to deal with. There are good, sincere, intelligent people on both sides of this debate. Unfortunately, there are also a lot of idiots on both sides, and they seem to be the ones who make themselves heard. I guess I have to admit my side of the argument has a lot more of the idiots. It makes it very difficult to speak out on an issue when the people who support your argument are so obnoxious. There are many people who have communicated with me privately about this. Their concerns are real, but they hesitate to express them publicly because they don't feel comfortable being allied with nasty, frightening people like the anonymous posters and such. There are a good number of people who feel that the healing threads and the overabundance of small talk have taken away much of the sparkle of the interesting conversation and humor that we used to have here. To them (and to me), it seems that in the last year, we have started to go down to the level of the Psychic Friends Network and chain letters and spam and all that other stuff that seems to clog the Internet with the same old words, repeated over and over again. This ought to be a place that is different, exciting, and always interesting. Lately, it has joined the rest of the crowd on the Internet, repeating the same old thing. Oh, sure, a lot of the good stuff is still here. Art Thieme still sometimes comes out with his tasty puns, and Peter T. really shines with stuff like The Day They Came For Mudcat (make sure you notice the Gilbert & Sullivan parody toward the end of the thread). Some of the music and political discussion threads are still as fascinating as ever - take a look at the When Does Folk = Not Political Music thread for a good example. No, Mudcat has not become a wasteland. There is still an abundance of intelligent, interesting, funny discussion to be enjoyed here. You know, it's really hard to make a convincing argument when what you're asking for is subtle. People understand black and white, but what I'm asking for falls in the grey area. If I ask for a shift toward more intelligent discussion, people get insulted and think I'm calling them stupid; or they turn the tables and call me stuffy and dull. If I complain about the constant repetition of the same chit-chat and jokes and the same ROTFLMAO responses over and over again, people say I have no sense of humor - and the people who are funny start feeling maybe they shouldn't say anything funny at all. If I ask for balance and a change in the tone of discussion, people say I'm calling for censorship. If I oppose the healing threads because they repeat the same thing over and over again to the point of becoming trite and meaningless, people say I'm unfeeling and unsympathetic, or even intolerant of people's religious beliefs. If I try to be conciliatory and find common ground and agreement among us, I'm called "condescending." Besides, what right have I to question what goes on here, anyhow? Do I have any authority here at Mudcat? Am I in charge of anything? No. Do I have the creative writing skills of Peter T. or the outrageous humor of Art Thieme? No. Do I have the vast folk music knowledge of Sandy Paton? No. Do I have the engaging personality and warm heart of Katlaughing? No. Well, then, doesn't that mean that I have no right whatsoever to express an opinion here? I'll let you answer that question. Here's what I think about that, though. I'm a fairly good-natured, likeable, intelligent person, and I've been here a long time and think I belong here; and I think I have a right to express my opinion here. When it gets to the point where I feel the tone of the Forum is out of balance, then I think I have the right to raise questions, and maybe even poke a little fun at things like the Mudcat Healing Friends Network and the silly people rolling around with their asses off about a joke they've heard a hundred times before. There is a very vocal bunch of people here who vehemently oppose any attempt to question the chit-chat and healing threads. Every time the debate comes up, they can be counted on to flood the Forum with passionate messages opposing "censorship." Because they are able post so many messages, they think they are a majority, and they contend that this is a democratic sort of place where the majority should rule. We certainly mustn't have censorship, they scream, even though nobody asked for censorship. Well...they do make one exception about that – they say Mudcat definitely can't have people like Gargoyle running around insulting people and making jokes about the healing threads. Well, I don't think this should be a place where the majority rules. Saying something like that is likely to get me flayed alive by the seething mob, but take a moment to think about it. What I'm asking for here is balance, moderation, and tolerance - and, most of all, intelligence. Quite often, the mob is not where you find the intelligence. Quite often, the greatest intelligence is not found in any one person, either. What we need to do to resolve this debate is stop and listen to each other, and form an intelligent consensus about the balance we want to achieve here. We all have valid ideas - but we need to stop and consider the ideas of others on an equal plane with our own. Well, then, what am I asking for? Am I asking for a Forum that is strictly about folk music, that has no room for sympathy and humor and human chit-chat and political discussion? No, I'm not. What I'm saying this that most of the discussion here should be about folk music, or spun off from discussions about folk music. When it gets to the point that the other stuff becomes repetitious or too dominated by insiders, then I think it should be taken elsewhere. I'm not saying there's anything there's anything wrong with chit-chat or healing or stuff like that – but it has come to the point where a number of members and visitors don't feel comfortable with the balance of material around here. It's easy to say that if people don't like what's being discussed in a thread, then they shouldn't read that thread. Well, that's kind of like saying that if you don't feel comfortable at our party, then you don't belong here. The healing and chit-chat threads exclude both visitors and a lot of our own members, and I find there's something wrong with that. If visitors come here looking for folk music and find that a lot of the discussion excludes them, they won't stick around to help keep this the fresh, lively place it ought to be. We won't be able to benefit from their new ideas, and we may become a boring bunch of insiders who have nothing new to say. OK, so that's what I have to say. Ease off on the healing, the chit-chat, the insider jokes and the repetition. Let's adjust the balance a bit, and do what we can to encourage the Forum to thrive with new ideas. And let's kill off the animosity altogether. 'Nuff said. -Joe Offer-
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Wesley S Date: 21 Jan 00 - 06:18 PM I've changed my mind - forget about my previous message. It would just make them mad. Lets just ignore them from now on. We've got better things to do with our energy. Going home. Have a great weekend everone. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: bbc Date: 21 Jan 00 - 06:23 PM I agree, Joe. bbc |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: sophocleese Date: 21 Jan 00 - 06:24 PM Joe, thank you. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST,Big Mick at a work computer Date: 21 Jan 00 - 07:14 PM I think you are on the track, Joe. If I understand you correctly you are asking for a little balance, not death for the supposed BS/OS threads. I have been concerned for the overall health of our community for a bit now. My absence from much of the discussion has been for this reason as much as workload, truth be told. I have been troubled, and the following are examples of the things that have been troubling me. I am probably the person who spawned the "healing threads" when I asked you all to keep 'Spaw in your prayers and thoughts. That evolved over time into a very controversial and damaging debate on the purpose of all this. I found myself wondering time and again how the simple process of asking folks to keep one of our own in their thoughts was a bad thing, a divisive thing. But I must confess that I got a bit uncomfortable when it turned from keeping one of our own in our thoughts to this almost cult status. Not because I have any problem with joining together for good, but because it almost involved the old "purity of thought" bullshit that nearly destroyed true liberal thought in this country. And the thought police on both sides of the argument seemed to cross a number of lines, but especially one. And that was the need to impose their own view on all at all costs. These folks just couldn't live with the existence so they jumped in and tried to destroy what others among us found useful, instead of just ignoring it. Let us never allow these people to stop us from expressing caring between us. It is what makes us a community. This doesn't just exist in the healing threads, either. Not the same players, but others whom, if they did some self reflection would find they have some things in common with that which they profess to dislike. The North of Ireland threads are the example here. If one were to go back and check the history of these threads, you would find that they have always been, in my view, about trying to find understanding and common ground. At times they got heated, as these types of subjects do. But a thorough reading of them will find valuable insights, and shifting perceptions and opinions. Yet there are those who seek to stop the discussion because it makes them uncomfortable, instead of just not engaging. I love it when I hear folks say they haven't posted because they were not comfortable. To me that says that they have read them, which means they are getting a broad perspective of all sides. The fact they were a bit intimidated by the discussion is fine. Because as they continue to become knowledgeable they will jump into the fray, and become better for it. In our tradition, exposure to all sides helps us to become well versed.......and helps us to fix opinions based on broad information. The end result is that it becomes much more difficult for us to be manipulated into using our bardic skills for something we really don't support. I, too, feel it is time for us to do some self examination of our motives here. For me it has always been about the music and expanding my knowledge of all that spawns it. It has also been an outlet for me to express that bit of nuttiness that all performers have, so that it doesn't turn inward. I have come to care deeply for this place and a great many of its denizens. I hope we can all take a minute to just breathe a bit, and take an exhaustive look at the last 3 months. With great affection, Mick |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST,Neil Lowe Date: 21 Jan 00 - 08:37 PM Deep breath....now exhale. Well put, Mick. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 00 - 08:41 PM "Do I have the engaging personality and warm heart of Katlaughing?" I have to sit back in awe of the man! I have met true compassion face to face! This was said by a man who had a personal message printed here on this very forum by that very individual. Healers take note. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Joe Offer Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:34 PM Yeah, hell, all I got is allies who won't post their real names when they post messages.... -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Dale Rose Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:42 PM Aw, here's my real name, Joe, and it ain't even Saturday yet! I've got lots more to read before I can figure out what I really want to say, but Yah, what you said, I agree. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Dani Date: 21 Jan 00 - 10:57 PM ALL you got? You got me for an ally, Joe. Thanks for taking the time to say (beautifully) some of the feelings I've had over the past few months as I've stepped back a little, feeling like the party took a different turn and it was time for me to go on... Dani |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:01 PM Dear Mick.....
You, did not "spawn the healing threads" the VERY UNIQUE experience with Catspaw.....was a VERY UNIQUE cyber-experience....
Unfortuantely, others have attempted (good Lord only knows for whatever reasons) the "magic" of that experience; it can not be repeated....it was not orchestrated, or contrived....it was a heart-felt experence generated from "blind MC citizens" and it was a "Wymoming mile" away from what followed when catspaw returned from his surgery!!!!
Mick, you have had a valid, viable, presence within this musical body....recruit more like yourself...we can certainly use them! |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Dale Rose Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:06 PM OK, here's a little more. Thinking about what Joe said about his allies posting anonymously ~~ if they are like me, they really prefer to stay out of controversial issues, and really don't want to be attacked on a personal basis, nor for that matter do they want to attack anyone else. I don't like it when people don't get along, I don't want to be where people don't get along. I do like posting to threads that interest me, especially if I think I have something to add that someone may find useful or in some small way enjoyable. It gives me a sense of purpose and satisfaction if even one person likes what I do. Somehow it isn't enough anymore to just say, "Well, don't read the ones you find irritating or distressing!" The meanness, no matter who it originates from, seems to be pervading far too many of the threads for this to be the comfortable place it once was. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:10 PM and none of this is your fault? |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST,_gargoyle Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:12 PM JOE...thanx The "web' is rife with "newsgroups" that have flourished and "died" because their "mission-statement" was allowed to wither.
the MC is about music.................. ......................................................for music........................................................................... And nothing but music............................................................
It is Not about: 1. Sick neighbor's children
Sincerely, gargoyle (wish I had a gig tonight - my sheets are cold)
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST Date: 21 Jan 00 - 11:46 PM Someone mentioned being respectful of a thread's original purpose and moving discussions such as this to a new thread. Why don't you? |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: alison Date: 22 Jan 00 - 06:47 AM Well said Joe, Lets learn from it and move on.... slainte alison |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Banjer Date: 22 Jan 00 - 07:08 AM We all know how each of us feels about the subject, can we now build a bridge, get over it, and get on with life? Why continously rehash the same subject over and over and over? We have always agreed to disagree ocassionaly. If we all thought alike there would be no need for a forum, would there. Let's get on with it........please? (you will note MY name is up there in the heading, 'cause when I say something I have enough intestinal fortitude to admit I said it!) |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jan 00 - 07:33 AM Suggested ground rules for names: Using a pseudonym is a quite reasonable thing to do if you feel like it.
Giving no name at all means that it is virtually impossible to respond - there's no way of kjn owing if GUEST is the same as GUEST or really the same as GUEST and not to be confused with GUEST. It's stupid. It's irritating. I normally assume that is the reason the people involved do it.
Using someone else's name is just not fair. It's like throwing a dead sheep in the waterhole to poison the water.(If you feel like doing a skit on someone's mannerismms, you can always just use a variation on the name involved.)
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: MandolinPaul Date: 22 Jan 00 - 09:00 AM Hey Kristi,
Glad to hear about JU's stubbornness. I've never met him, and don't know anything about healing circle stuff, but I hope for a speedy recovery. Paul. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: paddymac Date: 22 Jan 00 - 11:05 AM Group dynamics are fascinating. In the real world, there are a variety of filter mechanisms that largely limit the ability of trolls and flames to irk people. Those mechanisms, or many of them anyway, don't function well in the cyber world, probably because anonymity evades or avoids accountability. The result is that we have to create alternative filter mechanisms as functional parallels of/for the real world ones that don't wortk so well here. I wouldn't dare to predict where that social evolution will lead us; only that it will happen. This thread is very good evidence that it is happening even as we speak/chat. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Rick Fielding Date: 22 Jan 00 - 12:42 PM Regarding anonymous allies Joe. If anyone supports the following: Intelligent witty humour as opposed to hundreds of repetitive unimaginative "aren't we cute" rejoiners. Actual answers based on one's knowledge and opinions to musical (or other) questions, rather than quotes or instant access to websites that the questioner could have looked up themself, if they were willing to put forth an effort. An end to "red herring" issues, like dumping on or supporting "healing threads." Folkies are by nature compassionate, and it's that humanity that attracted me to the community. The issue was "over-posting" and Gargoyle's increasing viciousness as his frustration grew. An end to the kind of polarization that insists "If I like you, then I have to like "EVERYTHING" you do, or you won't be my friend anymore. If something strikes you as silly, or uninformed, or mischievous, or the rantings of a pompous ass (like my post here), just laugh it off! You really WILL feel better. Anyone who supports even 4 out of 5 of those can count me as an (always signed) ally Rick |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST,Blind desert pete Date: 22 Jan 00 - 02:26 PM right on Joe O at the risk of getting a rep as a curmudgeon, I have to go with you and even (gasp) gargoyle. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: The Shambles Date: 22 Jan 00 - 03:42 PM I would first like to pay my respects to the originator of this thread and apologise to them if they do not think these views belong on this thread. I felt they may help and that they did belong in the debate and rightly or wrongly this is where the debate is.
Until recently I have not been posting here and the healing threads and the controversy surrounding them has occurred during my absence. However the community that we prize here, was mainly formed in the events arising from the original 'healing thread', which I am happy to have been a part of and saw, as mainly a positive experience. The Mudcat willingly gave it's help then and to suggest that we deny that help to others in the future, is somewhat hypocritical and makes me a little uncomfortable.
The problem is that now, however well intentioned, the threads become a long list of people trying to say the same things in a different way, this created a strain originally and still does. The original thread also created a yardstick by which other such threads are judged. We tend not to feel happy if one healing thread receives more posts than another does and if we contributed to one and not another. The fact is that there never will be another thread quite like the first. I hope this does not sound uncaring, for that is not the intention, but there is nothing positive in feeling obligated to do something or feeling guilty if you do not.
I know the first part of this suggestion would work for I have done similar thing recently, but for less positive reasons. In the future would it be possible for anyone who wants support for a loved one, to place the details and request on a thread, asking that no posts be made to that thread but that personal messages or E Mails to be sent if someone wishes to reply. This thread could be refreshed and updated by the originator to inform us all, of the current situation. Is that too simple a solution, or do good-hearted folk have to continue to tear themselves apart? |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Peter T. Date: 22 Jan 00 - 03:54 PM Well, I remain baffled about "balance", but talkative (as always). As an offender on most of Joe's counts, I can certainly confess to making lots of insider jokes, but my experience has been that as soon as anyone joins in, they immediately are part of the game. We are very good here, I think, in being equal opportunity jokers. Little-Neo and many others can attest to that. All insiders always think so, I guess, so it is good to be reminded of one's failings. I have tried and failed to think of a music thread on Joe's intelligence scale that was disrupted, rather than helped along, by reasonable humour. Somebody perhaps could find one. We have funny, gifted, people here. I laugh all the time here.
Joe says: "There are a good number of people who feel that the healing threads and the overabundance of small talk have taken away much of the sparkle of the interesting conversation and humor that we used to have here. To them (and to me), it seems that in the last year, we have started to go down to the level of the Psychic Friends Network and chain letters and spam and all that other stuff that seems to clog the Internet with the same old words, repeated over and over again. This ought to be a place that is different, exciting, and always interesting. Lately, it has joined the rest of the crowd on the Internet, repeating the same old thing."
Besides, to my mind, though I hardly visit it, The Mudcat Tavern is (after the DT itself) perhaps the greatest common creation on this site, pure idiocy, total nonsense, but -- it is, what, 6 months old? Yet it represents one important neglected aspect of this site in this discussion: time off to goof around here among friends.
I certainly agree that we have had some dark, controversial threads here. In spite of the emotions they cause and some of the bad manners they evoke, I think they are important. If controversy was good enough for Leadbelly and Peter Seeger, if is good enough for me. Otherwise, this stuff is just museum work: it is dead, dead, dead. I always thought folk music was dead, dead, dead, until I came here, and had my mind changed. It lives because it is pursued by people who want living music that is not all about 16 year old sex (not to offend any people who are 16 year old sexual beings), and can be played by ordinary people, rather than a corporate creation. Its roots are in controversy, and they need watering, especially by the people who are making music. That is political to me. If it is going all to be about Botany Bay, I am gone where I was before I rediscovered folk music. If it is not about Mick's young woman getting up the courage to start a union drive, then forget about it. We might as well be talking about how to make Spitfires out of balsa wood (there is a chat group on that).
I think at bottom people are just offended by the healing threads. They find the world view or something so offensive that they cannot pass them by, but must actively "pick at the scab". Some others disrupt them and act viciously so as to get rid of them. Why, I don't know. Maybe they are frightened that they might work, and then what would that mean to their world; or that the site will turn into some New Age mush pit (the Psychic Friends Network of Joe's posting), and we will all be dragged down into soybeans. Come on. It is like worrying about Communists because they will destroy our moral fibre. If your moral fibre is threatened, then you have a pretty weak moral fibre to start with. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: katlaughing Date: 22 Jan 00 - 04:11 PM Bravo, Sensei Peter! Well said! |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: catspaw49 Date: 22 Jan 00 - 04:12 PM As always Peter...well done. C'mon by the Mudcat Juke Joint for a beer....the "race" is about to be decided and there'll be lots of beer on the beach again later tonight. You'll love it. Spaw |
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Subject: Healing Threads From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jan 00 - 04:15 PM I suppose a lot of people wonder why I keep talking about this, and why I've been so blunt. Well, the reason is that I'm sick of all this animosity, and I want the conflict resolved. Walking away from the problem and letting it continue to fester is not going to solve it. The big question now is not what the issues are, or who's guilty of what, or who's insulted. The question is, how do we solve the problem? This is a multi-faceted problem, so it may take a bit of discussion to resolve. Since this is a healing thread, let's talk about that part of the debate first. Like most of the healing threads, this thread was started by somebody who had really admirable intentions. I think we who dislike healing threads need to keep that in mind - the people who start the threads are, for the most part, sincere. If we are people of good will, then we should respect their sincerity, whether or not we think a healing thread is appropriate. Well, then, what's wrong with this thread? The first thing that comes to mind is that the person in need is identified only as JU. That tends to exclude everybody who doesn't know who JU is. It makes the thread into a private affair, where only those "in the know" are welcome. That tends to generate resentment among those who feel excluded. Some just stay away, even though they feel left out. Others post obnoxious responses or wordy objections (I may be guilty of the latter at times). Secondly, and most importantly, it's a very public discussion of an essentially private matter. These healing threads often discuss problems that really make my heart go out to the person who is suffering. If the person is somebody I know, I'd like to make a response. If I respond publicly in the thread, I can't comfortably say something from the heart. I end up saying the usual empty, surface-level platitudes that people say when they feel compelled to say something publicly when they encounter a sad situation. What I say in a situation like that often ends up sounding as sincere and personal as a "make money quick" spam message. Once again, let me repeat that most healing threads begin with a sincere wish for sympathy for an individual's suffering. For the individual in question, this is a very serious and important situation. Let's say we have three healing threads started in a week, and each one generates 50 expressions of sympathy. That's 150 healing threads in a year, and 7,500 sympathetic messages. That sounds wonderful, but in actuality what happens is that the sheer volume of all this makes it into something commonplace. When things happen all the time, they become trite and empty - it's hard for us to put our hearts into something that's the same old thing, over and over again. As a whole, the healing threads soon start to look like a "Psychic Friends Network" infomercial. Another problem with the healing threads in general, although not particularly this one, is that they have taken on a religious aspect that tends to exclude those who do not express themselves according to that particular religious tradition. Personally, I believe in a power of healing that is quite similar to that which is wished for in these healing threads. I believe that there is marvelous power in the faith and love and sympathy of good people, and that this power can heal hearts and even sometimes bring about physical healing. My personal belief is that this faith and love is the way that God heals - but I don't usually say the stuff about God because I realize that not everybody believes the same way and it might tend to push us apart. What unites us is that we all have a belief in the power of love. I think we can express and share that belief without becoming sectarian. As an aside, I'd also like to add that I personally feel very uncomfortable with the sensationalism of public or televised healing ceremonies, particularly those which take place within my own religious denomination. I'm relieved that these ceremonies take place on a weekday or Saturday, not at the time and place where I regularly attend services. OK, so how would I deal with the healing threads? In a message above, Clare suggested that they be taken to another site that deals specifically with healing. I don't think that's necessary - these are our own people, our own friends, and the appropriate place for this sort of thing is with friends, not with some stranger who happens to specialize in healing. Still, for all the reasons I state above, I don't think it works well to do this sort of thing in a public forum. There is a Mudcatter who has been very sick for the last several months. She did not want her illness or her personal life to be discussed in the Forum, but several Mudcatters thought is would be good to gather expressions of support and sympathy for her. They went to bbc's Mudcat Resources for e-mail addresses, and they e-mailed requests for support to people they thought would be interested. They gave an e-mail address where expressions of sympathy could be sent, and somebody collected those messages and took them to the person in question. Needless to say, those messages were very well received. I keep getting e-mail updates on the person's condition every week or so, and I'm pleased to say that things are getting better. Anyhow, that's how I think this sort of thing should be handled - simple, personal, heartfelt, and private. There doesn't need to be any particular organization or anything like that. The person who sees the need sends out the request, collects the responses, and sends the responses on to the person in need. No flames, no insincere platitudes, no public discussion of personal problems. Well, let's say we agreed to move the healing requests to e-mail. The practice of the healing circle has begun, and it's not likely to end on its own. How would I respond if somebody started a healing thread? I think I'd work up a standard reply, and pass it around to a few people to make sure it gets worded as nicely as possible. I'd say something like this: We've come to an agreement here at Mudcat that requests for healing do not work very well in this public forum. Could we ask that you send e-mail requests to members you think would be interested, and gather personal responses by e-mail? You can go to bbc's Mudcat Resources and get e-mail addresses for most of our regular members.Is that something we can agree on, or are there other suggestions? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Peter T. Date: 22 Jan 00 - 04:50 PM As always, Joe, I respect what you say, and agree with most of it, but I hope you don't mind my replying. You now seem to be objecting to the quality of the thread, its banality through repetition. Or at least that it forces one into banality. Maybe that you think it trivializes the emotion -- like getting birthday cards from a store. Or maybe you object -- as I have objected since a kid -- to what one thinks as what "should be said on an occasion like this", leading one to hypocrisy. I tend to think that here they are not meant to be creative or what one can say in private, but the usual clumsy way we have of wishing anyone well we don't personally know. Much of it just seems to me to be human solidarity -- we are thinking of you. But people like you and me are under no pressure to post here, so it does puzzle me as an argument. You can only be trying to keep other people from being banal, which is I think a pretty futile task! But that you don't think it works, or is trivializing, shouldn't prevent others from doing it. You do your good work; let others do theirs. I can see it supplementing e-mail, but that people might want to work through this site seems to me to be harmless: well, ought to be harmless. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Little dorritt Date: 22 Jan 00 - 06:23 PM Here's my four pennorth-if you don't like the contents of a thread just leave it alone -don't post a thread saying you don't like it because it then drags on and on and eventually everyone disappears up their own backside. Threads that no one replies to will die their own death whether their healing, offensive or whatever. Frankly this is all getting too angst ridden for me (sorry I,m British we don't do this soul searching terribly well!). I come to the mudcat mainly for music, but i like to take part in general threads. I can't take part in many of the music threads since I clearly do not have a fraction of the knowledge that many of you do. Nothing here has ever offended me that much that I wouldn't want to come here again. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 22 Jan 00 - 08:27 PM This is a long post I'm making, but it is meant to be helpful. And it takes less time to rerad than it did to write. I suppose there are two reasons why people might prefer to not have "healing threads" - one is because they just feel uncomfortable about them, maybe they share Joe's feeling that they risk spiralling down into phoniness, or cheapening something that would be better done in a different way.
The second is that they are concerned that, while we've got them up there on the screen, there's a real possibility that they might provoke the mind of nastiness we've seen over the last few days, which puts the whole Mudcat at real risk, as well as hurting people who don't deserve to be hurt.
So far as the first reason go, I share some of Joe's concern, and I think that most of the time his suggestions are the best way to respond. But I think that there are times when an open forum might really be what is most helpful. e-mails direct to you could feel terribly intrusive, an extra pressure to carry when you couldn't take it. Even emails via a friend might be too much. So if someone, knowing the situation, feels that an open forum thread would be more helpful, I don't think it should be excluded or shot down in flames, however gently (if you can shoot something down in flames gently).
The other reason - fear of the Running Dogs - is a powerful one, though a shameful one. I loathe the idea of doing anything that seems to reward the kind of people who posted sneers and cackles into a thread about a friend who had lost a daughter in a tragic accident only days previously. It's a bit like telling women or black people to keep a low profile when the rapists and the racists are on the streets.
But they are still there, waiting in the shadows. And if future healing threads get disrupted in this way again, not only is that hurtful to Mudcat, it undermines the whole helping nature of the thread.
Recently there was talk about finding ways of splitting the threads into music and non-music threads. I hate that idea, and think it couldn't actually work, because of the way threads develop.
But maybe it might make sense to have something like that in relation to specifically "healing threads" (though I'd sooner call them something else), so that after being flagged up in the main forum, they'd slip off into a quieter environment, accessible via the Quick Links, like bbc's resources and the Mudcvat Songbook.
I know that this could be the thin end of the wedge for a fragmentation of Mudcat - but I think that a continuation of the nonsense of the past few days threatens to do that anyweay, in a much more destructive way. If we do that I can imagine that at some point people would be suggesting that this would be the way to deal with other areas where conflict arises, and I'd be against that.
The peculiar nature of this was that the nastiness came in the context of personal tragedy, and that raised the temperature on both sides. Angry exchanges in a discussion about politics or aesthetics are part of the process of discussion, even when they get out of hand.
And one more suggestion - whtever consensus emerges, or whatever those who do all the work that keeps us going decide will suit them best, that needs to be made readily available to people when they come to Mudcat. Some might call it FAQ - I would prefer something like a Guide for the Perplexed. Because it really can get perplexing at times. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Little Neophyte Date: 22 Jan 00 - 08:33 PM Thank you, thank you, thank you Peter for taking the time to state very important points. Oy, I can't believe I am going to state an opinion. Dear Joe, Let's say you and I were lovers and you became unhappy with our frolicing in bed routine. You say to me "you know Bon, it just ain't the same anymore. I remember when it was..........and to make it better now, I would like a little more of this, and a little less of that with a limit on those and an increase on these". This kind of facilitating would make me feel uncomfortable and I would most likely lose some of my inhibitions and spontaneity. If you and I had a loving relationship with a solid foundation, I think our frolicking would experience many changes over the years. Sometimes it would be great, other times not so great. We would have many amazing moments and other times when we just didn't click. BB |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Joe Offer Date: 22 Jan 00 - 08:45 PM Well, Bonnie, that's an interesting analogy, but I wouldn't want to go there.... <blush> But a little humor does bring up a good point. I think we shouldn't take ourselves too seriously. This is a good place, and we're good people who like each other, even if we disagree on some issues. A little fine-tuning might be nice; but in the meantime, I'm still glad I'm here. But Bonnie, can we keep this relationship platonic, or at least not talk about it in public???? -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: wildlone Date: 22 Jan 00 - 09:02 PM As this was taken back to the top by Joe I have decided to post to it.As I see it Kirsti H has given us an update on JU,thanks Kirsti. I will make my post as simple as I can to read I would not want to strain the eyes of "many" or is it clare s, anyway it seems that when ever a healing thread is posted a few people post and show that they care. What then happens is that a few people post and complain and then it ends up going round in circles. There is no good threads you say WELL CREATE THEM I SAY. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: GUEST,-HOUSE Resident Maid Date: 22 Jan 00 - 09:12 PM Bonnie, when your IQ reaches 40........sell. Why must you compulsively tie everything into shameless flirting?....or try and pass yourself off as this young, naive ''neophyte'' when we all know nothing could be further than from the truth? You are just a kat-laughing clone, who contributes nothing to this forum, and who revels in seeing her name in print. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: wildlone Date: 22 Jan 00 - 09:19 PM Cleaner, dont worry your pretty little head about it. |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jan 00 - 09:26 AM Thanks to all those here who have tried to make positive suggestions as to how things might be improved. Things here are truly not all that bad but things could always be better. I would like to also point you to some very simple suggestions that Larmarca made in the 'Future of Mudcat. What do you think?' These are no great revelation just an reinforcement of what we do in any real social interaction but which we seem to forget when we go on- line. I am not bothered about being considered as an ally of Rick's or anyone else but he too makes some good points on this thread.
I would like to think we would all read them and not just stick to whichever 'sides' of the current division we may feel ourselves to be forced on and that this whole concept of allies be thrown away. There is no war to win, only a collective defeat and there is only one side to take here and that is The Mudcat's. There is no choice to be made, we can and must have all of the elements represented and tolerated here.
To calm the flames a little, would it not be a better idea (for both sides) to post 'well said', without making any further points, via personal messages, rather than on the thread? We would not dream of just posting on a thread, 'I don't agree', would we? It is a long-standing, on- line convention and is useful, for a number of reasons.
The issue here is wider than, Joe's or anyone else's personal opinion of the banality or of threads or the merits of BS or music. To try and reduce the issue to that level has not been and is not helpful. We may not agree with him but at least we know what he thinks. It is not going to be exactly how he might want it and he is going to have to accept what we make it. What do you think?
Joe is motivated, as I am, by what impression, the content, of a thread is giving to all of our current and potential contributors. A question of, is the 'tone' of the way it is conducted, going to inhibit or encourage others to stay and post?
Banjo Bonnie did make a good point as to being made to feel inhibited (go to number 3).
As I see it three intentions and three methods inhibit posters.
1. Intentionally. By stirring up feelings and directly insulting folk. 2. By being unaware and or uncaring of the effect they may be having on others. Then ignoring any other views or suggestions that may be made and over-reacting to them. 3. Unintentionally. By wanting the opposite so much and going on and on, annoying, confusing and boring folk. By 'painting with such a broad brush' that everyone feels accused and self-conscious.
If the cap fits wear it. Number 3 looks pretty good on me, number 2 seems to fit sometimes and I would like to think number 1 won't go on my head at all.
The analogy of Mudcat being a big house with many rooms, where we can go where we choose to, or not, does not really ring true to me. I do not recognise this 'you do what you want and I'll do what I want' attitude, as what Mudcatter's truly want here. This attitude has only come in to being as a reaction and a defence, when a choice or action is seen to be questioned. What I see in folk here is the need for a HOME. Building a house is easy, building; a home takes more effort, pain and compromise to achieve.
Why not get rid of the idea of all designated threads altogether? It has caused us nothing but trouble, if we do it, we may just all find this big house is a home and also find one another again?
I would like to think that we could agree that a healthy state of affairs would be, if or when, ALL potential contributors would feel that they could freely and safely post to ANY thread, if they choose to. Is that really too much to expect? I don't think we are too far away from that. "You may say I'm a dreamer", am I the only one? |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: Jeri Date: 23 Jan 00 - 09:50 AM Joe, Shambles, and anyone else who has asked "can we agree on this," - when we agree on anything, we'll have to start watching for pig poop falling from the sky. People aren't going to agree on what a healthy state of affairs is, because some people think any argument or disagreement spoils things. Some feel it's ok for people to get mad at someone else as long as they do so politely, and some understand a little bit of impoliteness in a heated argument. I'm sure the vast majority of us would agree that a post having nothing to do with a person's words, but only attack a person, has no value or purpose other than to distract and gain attention. They aren't worth the effort of reading let alone responding to. No matter what my opinions on BS and healing circles, I find it appalling that we should turn a thread about someone's suffering into a soap box. Next time, if people feel compelled to repeat these arguments, would it be possible to start a separate thread? |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: The Shambles Date: 23 Jan 00 - 11:30 AM Jeri. What I said was "I would like to think that we could agree that a healthy state of affairs would be, if or when, ALL potential contributors would feel that they could freely and safely post to ANY thread, if they choose to." Do YOU disagree with that? |
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Subject: RE: Healing Circle please...revisited From: fulurum Date: 23 Jan 00 - 06:40 PM Joe Offer, I'm the one who wrote the comment about being a democracy and majority rule. After reading what you wrote i stand corrected on the democracy/majority issue. Your right. I don't expect to agree with everybody on anything. Nor do I expect anybody to agree with everything I say. I mean I can't even get my girlfriend to agree with me on anything half of the time, how can i expect the thousands and thousands (i've been watching wrestling to much lately) of mudcatters to agree with me all the tie. excerpt from Pete Seegers All Mixed Up. Oh this doesn't mean we must all be the same We'll all have different faces and different names Long live many different kinds of races And difference of opinions that makes horse races Just remember The Rule About Rules brother What's right for me is wrong with another And take a tip from LaBelle France Vive la difference. Peace fellow catters fulurum |
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