BS: World politics

Subject: BS: World politics
From: Thompson
Date: 22 Nov 23 - 05:26 PM

I'd half expect Argentina to be odd, but its swing to the right is so extreme that the new leader Argentinians have voted in wants to rehabilitate the reputation of the people who drugged students, threw them out of planes and stole the dead people's babies.

And when you see The Netherlands, a country so sane that bicycles are used in preference to cars, electing a prime minister whose policies include suppressing Islam and replacing a principle of equality in the Dutch constitution with a clause stating the cultural dominance of the Christian, Jewish and humanist traditions, eyebrows rise so far that they're tickling the back of your neck.

Why is there this swing to populism in so many countries?

Only in some individuals is there hope.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Nov 23 - 05:57 PM

I pointed to this recently in the Trump thread following the election victory of a dangerous idiot in Argentina. We're all being softened up into thinking that our current leaders are so bloody weak that we'd be better off investing in empty-headed populists. Watch this space, precisely one year from now. Talk about sleepwalking...

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Nov 23 - 03:55 AM

Even here, a leaflet came in the door yesterday from a metal-eyed opposition politician with strong opinions on law and order.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 23 Nov 23 - 04:07 AM

A hard-right, racist, populist party has won the largest number of seats in the Dutch election. Another red flag following the catastrophic result in Argentina.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Nov 23 - 09:46 AM

There is opportunity knocking for the unwise, unskilled and under-educated. It is easier to study a primer on how to be a tyrant than how to be a Statesman. Besides the people who excel at being 'real' phonies are attracted to political positions out of social psychopathic glee.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Thompson
Date: 23 Nov 23 - 10:28 AM

Meanwhile, an interesting one in Uraguay: The bill Rendición de Cuentas was introduced by Uruguayan Society of Performers (SUDEI) earlier this year, proposing to amend Articles 284 & 285 of Uruguays copyright law. The modification, which was approved by the Uruguayan Parliament last month, is set to introduce a requirement for "fair and equitable remuneration" for artists in regards to their recorded material.

The result? Streaming service Spotify is clutching its skirts and running like hell out of Uraguay.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Nov 23 - 11:33 AM

"Hell in a Handbasket" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 23 Nov 23 - 03:58 PM

I haven't thought about Uruguay at all until this week when I heard a news story talking about how they have converted most of their power supply to wind and solar. So fair remuneration for artists? It sounds like a rational place to live these days!

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 24 Nov 23 - 02:39 PM

Thompson: Why is there this swing to populism in so many countries?

Possibly because politicians are starting to realise that they should represent the 'majority view' of their constituents?

We had it in UK in 2016. The politicians, in the main, were against Brexit. But they hadn't realised that the majority (often the 'silent' majority) had a contrary view.

It needs to be remembered that those who shout the loudest do not, necessarily, represent the majority view.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 24 Nov 23 - 08:44 PM

The "silent majority" is one of the most scurrilous concepts of all   If you shut up and say nothing, you are contributing nothing. You are influencing nothing. Speak up, you silent majority wallahs, or you don't count. Deservedly so. Don't pretend that you're some sort of sage, pipe-smoking guru that somehow towers above the rest of us. You're not. You're a member of the silent majority because (a) you're a Tory, and (b) because you don't think and have nothing to say that's of any worth.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 04:43 AM

You're a member of the silent majority because (a) you're a Tory, ...

According to figures published by the House of Commons Library, less than 2% of the UK electorate belongs to a political party. If the silent majority is made up of Tories, how does a Labour government ever get elected?

DC

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 06:45 AM

When I say you're a Tory, I don't necessarily mean that you're a Tory party member. Duh.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 06:45 AM

Every Authoritarian yells in essence "Don't believe experts, Don't believe science, Don't believe the fake news. The only thing you can believe is your gut and I will tell you what that is".

In short order, any lie will be felt to be true. The more it is heard/felt, the truer it becomes.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 06:52 AM

If you shut up and say nothing, you are contributing nothing.
As opposed to what? Those who speak up? shout from the rooftops? go on demonstration marches? block the traffic including emergency services?

I would prefer to be part of the silent majority than of the vociferous minority.
Shouting, headlines, and polls mean nothing compared to the outcome of (confidential) elections.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 06:54 AM

"Every authoritarian" doesn't necessarily say all, some or any of those things. But say it often enough and you'll start to feel that it's true.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 07:13 AM

You might think that fascism is a European invention but that is not entirely true. For example, the Nuremberg laws that stripped Jews of rights and freedom amid the German population were based on the research of a German lawyer whose mission was to understand how American race laws could allow for lynching and Jim Crow rule of an entire race despite the 14th Amendment.

Hypocrisy has its own rules and assembly line manufacture.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 07:41 AM

When I say you're a Tory, I don't necessarily mean that you're a Tory party member. Duh.

I know that you didn't mean Tory party members but if, as you seem to be saying, the silent majority is made up of Tory sympathisers then 98% of the electorate would choose the Conservatives.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 07:47 AM

Or that conservatives aren't silent?

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 07:59 AM

No matter who you are or what party you agree with most the seed of authoritarianism is inside you. How many times a day do you think your ideas are better than 'their' ideas? If it wasn't for 'those' assholes things would be OK. Because of 'them' we are going down the tubes.

It takes Democratic tools to fight against the indefatigable urges of the authoritarian within yourself and in other movements.

The fault is not in the stars...

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: keberoxu
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 08:53 AM

At least Poland appears, from its parliamentary elections, to be moving in a positive direction.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 12:04 PM

Thinking your ideas are better than others' does not make you authoritarian. It's what you say and what you do.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Donuel
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 02:58 PM

Why is there this swing to populism in so many countries?

The seed of authoritarian tendancies are in all of us.
It is in the contrarian, it is in people who adopt the distrust and misgivings of fellow citizens, it is in anyone who feels their ideas are better than those guys, it is in you when you feel if it weren't for THEM we would be OK. If only we could get rid of...
Fighting against fascism with Democratic institutions is slow against the instant lies and baseless claims of the right wing. It almost seems like nazis don't grow fatigued while the left grows tired.

Populism doesn't need a majority. When threats and violence are used,
a relatively small minority is all populists need.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 25 Nov 23 - 06:12 PM

The seeds of authoritarianism are not in all of us, and that's an assertion you can neither support with evidence nor with argument. There are beautiful people on this planet whose only motivation is to do good. I'm surrounded by people like that in our very supportive Memory Café circle here in Bude. Clumsy generalisations don't cut it. As you say "in all of us," I can only conclude that you have some sort of conscience about your own position.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 04:44 AM

Populism isn't really politicians representing the views of the majority, though, Nigel Parsons; populism is a manipulative strategy to use the worst - the hatred of those who see themselves as oppressed - to bully a whole society.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Thompson
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 05:15 AM

I have a suggestion for the mods for where any two people are constantly sniping at each other.
How's about opening a special Sniping thread, and when the sniping starts, the mods can remove these posts from the thread they're polluting and interrupting, and post them into the Sniping thread? This way, the snipers can fire happily at each other without distraction for others.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 05:38 AM

Populism, IMHO, is the weaponisation, usually by a powerful minority, of the fears and dissatisfactions of a weaker majority in order to control that majority, and persuade them to vote against their own best interests in order to achieve the aims of the minority - the Brexit ‘Leave’ campaign being a perfect example.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 05:55 AM

So where's the fine line to be drawn between legitimate criticism of clumsy generalisations and sniping? I do respect your views, Thompson, but the challenge I made to his post up there was on-topic and not impolite. It is a discussion forum after all. By the way, I completely agree with your characterisation of populism. A little while ago I thought I was seeing it go into decline, what with clowns such as Johnson and Trump at the helm bringing populism into disrepute ;-). Sadly, we've seen a couple of elections in which right-wing populists have held sway. On Broadcasting House this morning there was even talk of Farage joining the Tories and, unbelievably, of his eventually becoming the Tory leader. And Trump isn't going away any time soon.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 06:27 AM

'To discuss' (irregular verb):

I am making a legitimate criticism
You are nitpicking
They are sniping

DC

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 07:10 AM

We could always just discuss populism for now, Doug.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 08:11 AM

Thompson I have answered your question 3 times. Perhaps you caught it on the fly. In short Big Brother, populism and lies move faster than democracy. Also while controversial the seeds of authoritarianism is inside human nature.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 01:00 PM

Thompson: Populism isn't really politicians representing the views of the majority, though, Nigel Parsons; populism is a manipulative strategy to use the worst - the hatred of those who see themselves as oppressed - to bully a whole society.

You are entitled to use your own definitions. I prefer the following:
Britannica: Populism, political program or movement that champions, or claims to champion, the common person, usually by favourable contrast with a real or perceived elite or establishment.

Cambridge dictionary: political ideas and activities that are intended to get the support of ordinary people by giving them what they want:

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 26 Nov 23 - 09:11 PM

Time for a Pratchett quote: "A lie can travel round the world while the truth is getting its boots on." It takes a certain amount of time to respond to an untruth, let alone refute it; meanwhile, the liar (or bullshitter) has emitted forty-two more untruths, each of which needs a separate refutation.

.... Hm: it's only just occurred to me that "spin doctor" may reference a web of lies, not just spin bowling in cricket. I'm slow.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 06:34 AM

Time for a Pratchett quote: "A lie can travel round the world while the truth is getting its boots on."

Terry Pratchett quote?
He was merely re-phrasing Mark Twain.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 07:28 AM

”He was merely re-phrasing Mark Twain.”

Or even, mayhap, Jonathan Swift?

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/26/books/famous-misquotations.html

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 07:57 AM

And now from New Zealand - the recently elected government is proposing to pay for income tax cuts by reversing the ban on smoking for anyone born after 2008, so as to ensure a new generation will continue paying tax on tobacco. And dying.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 11:21 AM

I suspect that many quotes rephrase others. That doesn't mean that the later ones are any less valid and, because they are more recent, they tend to be more suitable to current situations. Swift, Twain and Pratchett did not have Trump or Johnson in mind when they created their work but all 3 knew human nature very well.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Nov 23 - 07:16 PM

Thats right Dave. History does not repeat itself exactly, it does however rhyme.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Thompson
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 03:07 AM

What question, Donuel?

As for my suggestion for a Sniping thread, it's just that I'm terribly bored by personal sniping between people who go off-message all the time, and I suspect others also give an impatient sigh when it starts. I'm basically saying "Get a room".

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 04:21 AM

I asked Doug to move on. There's a bit of irony in the fact that you're not.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 07:08 AM

The question of why the reemerging global shift to authoritarianism...fascism, and religious xenophobia.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 28 Nov 23 - 08:22 AM

> The question of why the reemerging global shift to authoritarianism

Hie thee to HL Mencken, and find the original full version of "for every problem there is a solution which is neat, plausible and wrong". (I *think* it starts with "There are explanations; there have always been explanations". Corrections welcomed.)

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 08:25 AM

Democracy is in decline. There are now more autocratic regimes than democracies.

From www.dw.com:

Democracy is, however, farther away from a worldwide triumph than it has been for a long time. For the first time since 2004, the Bertelsmann Transformation Index (BTI) has recorded more autocratic than democratic states. Of the 137 developing and transition countries examined, only 67 are still considered democracies. The number of autocracies has increased to 70.

"This is the worst political transformation result we have ever measured in the 15 years of our work," says Hauke ??Hartmann, BTI project manager at the Bertelsmann Foundation. This is due to the fact that around the world there are fewer free and fair elections, less freedom of opinion and assembly, as well as increasing erosion of the separation of powers.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 12:03 PM

Could you post a link to the piece you quoted from please, Steve? dw.com doesn’t seem to have a ‘search’ facility, and I’ve just wasted fifteen minutes in a fruitless attempt to find it.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Mrrzy
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 12:25 PM

Does Kissnger's death go here?

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Rain Dog
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 12:29 PM

DW.COM - Democracy in decline worldwide

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 12:46 PM

I was piqued to looking into it as it was mentioned in the first Reith Lecture on Radio 4 yesterday. The lecture was an excellent listen, very unstuffy and quite entertaining. Gerrit on Sounds, me favourite BBC app. Cheers, Rain Dog, by the way. You're a better linkman than I am, Gunga Din.

As for Kissinger, he was a bad man. As I said in another thread, Vietnam, Cambodia, Pinochet, Nobel peace prize. Spot the incongruity.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 01:46 PM

If you're looking for the thread with Kissinger comments, Mrrzy, 'yere 't be.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 30 Nov 23 - 02:37 PM

Thanks Rain Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 10:10 AM

Backwoodsman:
You may have been unable to find it because although Steve quotes it with his own intro: "Democracy is in decline. There are now more autocratic regimes than democracies."
The 'there are now' comment ignores the fact that the article is over 18 months old (02/23/2022). So the original post was a little misleading.

Subject: RE: BS: World politics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 01 Dec 23 - 11:30 AM

Thanks very much Nigel, precisely why I like people to provide working links rather than simply cut/copy-and-paste - far too easy for a poster to impart ‘spin’ to C&Ps, a link to the source helps to prevent such deceptions.