Irish songs - why so many versions?

Subject: Irish songs
From: GUEST,Anna
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 08:43 AM

Irish musicians, why are you pulling my leg? Each time I learn and translate one of your songs, I find there is another version, with different verses and words. What can I do? Anna

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: QRS
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 09:13 AM

Anna, in trad folkmusic (if thats´s what you mean) there is often a lot of versions of the same song or tune. Why? In some cases the songs are so old that nobody knows the origin of it or who made the song(or tune)..

This is One of the main reasons

Ex. If you live in Ireland and plays the whistle It´s in the beginning of the 1920´s and you are at a pub in Galway... You hear a lovley song or tune called "Lauras jig"( just an example) Maybee there is no name for the tune at all..

You learn the tune and travel back to your hometown Dublin. After a while someone learn "your" new jig in some session but they don´t care about the name, or renames is to "Billys jig" (example again)

There you have two jigs (perhaps almost the same tune) whith different names....

The same thing can of course happen to a song...

This will always happen to music, but not as much( I think) today because of the media, radio, television etc.

Hope this helps

[e-mail]

Regards

QRS

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 09:16 AM

Actually there is a conspiracy at work, Anna; we have a committee in south Cincinnati whose sole purpose is to drum up Irish song versions whole cloth and slip them into the database for you to find them, using carefully calculated time intervals so they will appear there just as you've settled down on the earlier version. We were wondering what your reaction would be. But we never thought you'd guess!

A

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: Áine
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 09:26 AM

Dear Ana,

The reason that there are so many versions of Irish tunes and songs has to do with the history of the island.

Ireland was, before the last century, largely settled in small holdings, called townlands, and since there were no main roads (if there were roads at all), most of the people never traveled very far from where they were born. Add to that the invasion of the English and the consequent pushing back of the native peoples from the desired agricultural areas, those people that survived became even more isolated.

Thus, the music that was created in one particular area of the island tended to stay there. If a travelling singer or musician came through an area and brought a new tune or song, the people of the townland would change the words and/or the tune to fit their own area. This is how several tunes and songs can have the same title, but have very different notes and/or words.

I hope this helps answer your question.

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:07 PM

Áine, I'm afraid that you have quite a mixture of fact and fiction here: Fact: Local modifications in words and perhaps tune. Fiction: quoting you "Add to that the invasion of the English and the consequent pushing back of the native peoples from the desired agricultural areas, those people that survived became even more isolated." Afraid not. If the English acted as you imagine, then how come Irish as a language survived throughout the Island until relatively recently ? My own great grandparents on both sides of my father's family were native speakers from Tyrone and Down. Isolation was a result of the bad communications and the natural attachment of the average Irishman to his native place. You only have to look at a Family Name map of the country to the truth of that. Best wishes, Dan

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: GUEST,Dan
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:07 PM

Áine, I'm afraid that you have quite a mixture of fact and fiction here: Fact: Local modifications in words and perhaps tune. Fiction: quoting you "Add to that the invasion of the English and the consequent pushing back of the native peoples from the desired agricultural areas, those people that survived became even more isolated." Afraid not. If the English acted as you imagine, then how come Irish as a language survived throughout the Island until relatively recently ? My own great grandparents on both sides of my father's family were native speakers from Tyrone and Down. Isolation was a result of the bad communications and the natural attachment of the average Irishman to his native place. You only have to look at a Family Name map of the country to the truth of that. Best wishes, Dan

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 07:19 PM

It's not a fiction that Gaelic speaking areas became shrunk down and separated, so that you have little islands of Gaeltacht in all four provinces, but in some case these were/are very small, and a long ways from the others.

But it's not so much the people being pushed out of the land as that the language was pushed out of the people. The people talking Gaelic down in Ring in Co Waterford are the same as the people talking English up the road in Dungarvan.

Anyway, for the tunes, there's a saying "The man who knew the name of all the tunes didn't know the tunes."

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: SeanM
Date: 12 Feb 00 - 10:29 PM

To be honest, before the spread of print, what Aine said goes for just about ANY folk tune. Whether Irish, English, or Swahili, until print arrived to assist in the cementing of arrangements, songs mutated constantly from inception to present.

Let's not bring politics into what is a basic issue... it doesn't matter where the song came from, if it's old, then there are a ton of variants on it.

M

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From:
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 09:08 PM

Desperately searching for lyrics to song by the Dubliners: THE MERO ("we all went up to the Mero, hey there who's your man.....????)

Can anyone please please assist.

Thanks so much

Susan Buggy

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: Brendy
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 10:13 PM

Well Cromwell did say "To hell or to Connaught"
I always thought that to mean that he offered to kill them if they didn't evacuate their homes forthwith.

But by far the greatest disappointment about the lack of fluency of your average person from the south of Ireland is the way it was taught in the schools. Pupils were not encouraged to learn it, they were forced. Which developed in a lot of people an inherent dislike of the language.
Thank God that situation is now turning, and once again the Irish language will be spoken, and will be enjoyed to be spoken, by an ever increasing number of people. For it truly is a beautiful language.

It is unfortunate that I have not people around me who speak the language much. I hear 'Text Book' Irish quite a lot, but I did learn my Irish in the middle of the Donegal Gaeltacht, and am more used to the spoken word as opposed to the written. I also learned it at school. Ironically, in the north of Ireland. Where no such compulsion to learn the language existed.

But as to why there are so many versions? Because traditional music is not based on any so clear cut rules.
Why do different parts of the country have different dialects?
Why, in those dialects, are there 'sub-dialects'? Why does the red cow give white milk, when it only eats green grass?

B.

And I think the song is 'The Monto' by The Dubliners

Subject: RE: Irish songs
From: paddymac
Date: 13 Feb 00 - 11:53 PM

I concur with Aine. Survival of pockets of Gaelige was but one result of the eviction / plantation policy of the English. I don't see that Aine's comment on that point is at odds with Dan's assertion about his g-g-parents speaking Gaelic, and thus don't see the issue. Change, in the sense of adaptation and adoption, is the essence of the folk tradition. Add to that the creative muse and singability of most folk songs, we shouldn't be surprised that a completely new set of words may be fitted to the melody of a popular tune. And finaly, the isolation Aine spoke of, partly attributable to the geo-centered (mentioned by Dan) character of rural cultures generally, not just in Ireland, and the economic poverty that tends to reinforce other isolating factors. 'Tis a grand result say I.