long neck banjo question

Subject: long neck banjo question
From: Jon W.
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 12:25 PM

Why does the 5th string on long neck banjos start at the seventh fret instead of the fifth? Seems to me if you want to lower the pitch of the whole instrument a step or two you'd want the 5th string lowered as well - else you couldn't play the same was as a regular 5-string. Any Seegerists out there who can answer?

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: Rex
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 01:24 PM

Well if you lower the 5th string along with the rest, you will have less frets for sliding the capo to get all those different keys for singing. I just tune the 5th string down and have a capo for it too.

Rex

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 01:43 PM

I believe the long neck is meant to keep the damn 5th string peg outta yer way when ye playing in keys like F, B and B flat. I just ordered a Deering Black Diamond long neck last night. I am looking forward to gettin' it!

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 02:01 PM

REX raised a point I have often pondered.

What is the tuning for the Long Neck Banjo. Do you typically tune down all of the strings including the 5th, then use a capo and railroad spikes to bring it back up to G tuning for most songs? Or do you tune down strings 1-4, use a capo for them, and retune the 5th string when you want to play in the lower keys?

I checked in several books inlcuding Pete Seeger's and the actual tuning for the long neck is never clear.

Thanks : JAB

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: DADGBE
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 02:38 PM

Interesting questions, all. Since banjos are played in so many different tunings, the whole question of "correct or standard tuning" is somewhat cloudy. Pete often has his wonderful tubaphone with the rosewood long neck tuned in C tuning with strings 1-4 tuned down 3 half-steps and the 5th string to G. That would be A, E, G#, B, G. He then capos strings 1-4 at the 3rd fret for standard C. This makes the keys of A, Bb and B available to him by moving or removing the capo and tuning his 5th string down.

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 03:38 PM

I agree with Rex. I bought a long neck banjo because I tend to capo on the 5th fret when singing. The long neck offers me more frets to work with and more keys to sing in. Though I keep it in G tuning I can play it in other tunings. When playing in other keys, sometimes I will only tune the 5th string according to the key I want to play in. Other times I will use the capo.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 08:50 PM

I play an Ode long neck which I tune and keep in "Open G" (dDGBD) tuning. For puposes of intonation I use two capos. I keep one on the third fret after its tuned and I use the other ro move to diferent keys. Notably( a pun ) "C", "D", "Eb". Altho' we do use "A", "Bb" as well. Do to my finger limitations I find this to be prefereable to retuning frequently. I flat pick the banjo as much as i frail it and i find this set up to be the best choice for me.

Don

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: JedMarum
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 10:25 PM

Deering says, of their long neck models and its tuning, "If you want more flexibility in your range, this banjo is for you. It can be capoed at the third fret and played as a regular 5-string in the key of G or left open and played in the key of E."

This implies that they recommend that you tune the 5th string to its normal G, and the others to an open E chord, as opposed to the open, G - then with a capo at the third fret you are playing a standard G tuning. It makes sense.

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: John in Brisbane
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 11:19 PM

I used to play an Epiphone long neck made in Kalamazoo in the 60's - it had been sitting in a warehouse for 10 years. Tuning was pretty much as Liam descibes for open E tuning.

The long neck came in handy for me at the time as we did a lot of Irish/Australian sings in F, so I'd place the capo at the first fret and de-tune the 5th string to f or sometimes c. I installed a 5th string capo (after experimenting a lot), but more importantly I also installed a fiddle fine tuning peg below the bridge. It made that inevitable tweaking of the 5th string oh so much quicker and more accurate. The fine tuning peg costs next to nothing and installed in a couple of minutes.

I used to find it quite hard to buy strings in Australia that were long enough AND had loop ends. I don't know what it's like today. As I recall I was restricted to Black Diamond.

When I was playing for extended periods in the open tuning, say in E or A, I used to find the arm extension required was damn tiring - I wouldn't recommend this unless your knuckles normally drag on the ground or you're over 6'2".

Regards, John

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Feb 00 - 11:41 PM

You have a point there John,
Maybe the long neck banjo was originally designed for an orangutan.
Personally, by the time I master playing it, that is probably what I will look like.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 08:37 AM

Now that you can buy all your strings on the web, you can find good choices. And I'm over 6'2" - so I guess I'll manage OK!

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: Terry Allan Hall
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 08:52 AM

Vega makes strings for a long-neck banjo, as well. I think LaBella does, too, but I'm not certain.

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 11:51 AM

Sorry but the tuning for the lowest open strings on a long neck five is not A, E, G#, B, G. It is e,A,E,G#,B (for the same voicing as g,C,G,B,D). It can also be tuned in an open E chord (for the same tuning as g,D,G,B,D) as e,B,E,G#,B. The first tuning is referred to as C tuning but the key is actually A. The second tuning is referred to as G tuning but the key is actually E.

Frank

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:05 PM

When Mr. Hamilton is giving you the skinny on this; you can be certain it's the actual truth.

For the young folks out there who may not know him, Frank Hamilton was a member of that great folk quartet called The Weavers.

Eric Darling (who was just in Cleveland at the Folk Alliance bash) replaced Pete Seeger in the group. Later, it was Frank Hmilton who replaced Eric Darling in the Weavers. If anyone knows the long-neck banjo well, it's Frank and Eric and Pete---and we're pretty lucky to be getting Frank's input here. (Just my opinion.)

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:30 PM

Art here again,

My old uncle told me that the reason the 5th string is shorter is because in the old days, when they used possum guts for banjo strings, one possum was only good for 3 and 1/2 strings...

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM

Thanks Frank:

From what you wrote, if I was tuned in an open E chord (G tuning) = e,B,E,G#,B and wanted to play in G I would place the capo for the first four strings on the third fret. I would then spike the 5th string on the 11th fret, or tune the 5th string up to g.

Sorry to be so dense, but is this correct?

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: JedMarum
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:23 PM

JAB - I believe you tune the 5th string to G and do not spike. Then you tune it down to accommodate, F#, F, E - tune up of spike to go to A, B etc.

In short, you tune to a G tuning with the capo at the third fret and the 5th string open at G.

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: Songster Bob
Date: 23 Feb 00 - 02:50 PM

The reason the fifth string peg is where it is is because it was a standard banjo that was operated on to add the extra three frets, in the first "Pete Seeger" banjo, built for Pete some long time ago (my memory says 1946-48, but what does it know?). The neck was cut through at the peghead end and more wood added, with a fingerboard extension added, too. There used to be a diagram of the conversion in the earlier editions of Pete's banjo book. I don't think it's still in the later ones.

I knew a guy once who insisted that the long-neck banjo was the original banjo, an opinion he based on learning that the old "standard" for tuning was A, not C. He held this opinion despite pictures, catalogs, and actual instruments -- none with the extended neck -- which far predated the change in the standard, which itself took place in 1895-96 (again, relying on my alleged memory). He relied on the evidence of tuning, which in turn relied on the tensile strength of gut strings.

When I had a long-neck banjo, I tuned the fifth string (as needed) from E to about A before resorting to the fifth-string capo (never could get those railroad spikes to work right, so I use the sliding gizmo).

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: Jon W.
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 11:40 AM

Thanks for all the input. Bob's post answers the original question best, and the other posts are very valuable as well. I may just build myself a long neck and put the fifth string nut at the fifth fret--it just seems it would give more flexibility in tuning it as well as less worries about string tension or lack thereof. I've got a low voice so if I want to play and sing in the same octave a standard banjo doesn't do it for me.

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 07:13 PM

Hi JAB, You have it exactly right. Capo on the third fret for a C or G tuning. I have my little model railroad ties (screws for fretting the fifth string) at the 13th and 18th fret. I used to use a sliding 5th string capo but after I frailed so hard, I would knock the string out from under the tie. A disadvantage with both the sliding capo and the model railroad ties (or screws) is that you can't fret the fifth string above the fifth peg without interference with the screw (tie) or capo. There are some traditional pieces that call for the fretting of the fifth string and bluegrassers use it on their Mastertones etc. all the time. You have to find the right keys so that the screws don't interfere. (This would be for clawhammer style playing).

So the tunings for a long neck five from first fret capoed up to the seventh would be E: eBEG#B (open); F: fCFAC (capo first fret) F#: f#C#F#A#C# (capo second fret;G: gDGBD (capo 3rd fret); G#: g#G#D#G#B# (fourth fret); A: aEAC#E (fifth fret) A#: a#E#A#C(double#)E# (It's best to think of this in Bb: bbFBbF (capo sixth fret), bF#BD#F# (seventh fret).

The only point in knowing what actual notes these are is if you are tuning to a piano. Otherwise for a banjo picker it's just better to think in G tuning.

The C tuning is the same principle but the fourth string note changes because it's tuned down a major second. In this tuning the fourth string is the key note.

A; Open fourth A# or Bb (first fret) B (second fret) C (third fret) C# (fourth fret) D (fifth fret) Eb (sixth) E (seventh). The other notes on string 3,2,1 are the same as in the G tuning.

I hope this is clear. It gets muddy when you try to talk about music without being shown something.

Frank

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 07:18 PM

Also, wanted to say JAB that you only use the screw when you go above the C or G tuning on the third fret. Now what compounds the problem is that there are so manyn different banjo tunings available. Most of the traditional folk banjo players use the raised second string and there are variations on that. Check Doc Boggs, Clarence Ashley, Some Uncle Dave (uses a C tuning in a chord) and Buell Kazee. Lunsford and Derroll rarely used any variation from G or C tuning but Jarell and Bob Carlin, Mike Seeger and trad players all do.

Frank

Subject: RE: long neck banjo question
From: GutBucketeer
Date: 24 Feb 00 - 10:43 PM

Thanks Frank!

It really helps to have it all explained.

JAB