Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Nov 11 - 08:59 PM

Much further one, maybe my modes tutorial ought to get a mention if this is to be a permathread:

http://www.campin.me.uk/Music/Modes/

Covers a LOT more than has been mentioned here, with hundreds of real examples. Centred on Scottish music but goes a lot further than that.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 07:16 PM

Those were old ABCs which I hadn't changed to major circular. (Key and mode don't have to be correct for ABCs, they just have to give the right number of sharps or flats on the key signature.) The recent "Sources of Irish Traditional Music" give both phrygian and circular major scorings for the tunes above. The problem is that for circular major tunes that end on the 7th there are also two scorings, and the one that is not major circular is locrian.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Snuffy
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 06:36 PM

Frank,

You could be right about the present modality of these tunes, but it appears they were Phrygian 200 years ago. I got the abcs off the web - the White Cockades from Bruce O's Scarce Songs and the Campbells from (I think) the Nottingham Database. The Campbells has no second (C), and the first Cockade has no fifth (F#), but all three have the seventh (A).

What do you think?

X: 1
T:T055- Hob or Nob [The Campbell's are coming]
M:6/8
L:1/8
Q:120
S:Walsh's 'Caledonian Country Dances', IV, c 1744
K:B phrygian
GBe dBG|B2BB2A|GBe dBG|ABAA2B|GBe dBG|B2dg2a|bag fed|B2B~B3::
g2g gab|d2dd2B|g2g gab|e2ee2f|gfe gab|d2dg2a|bag fed|B2B~B3:|]

X:2
T:WHTCOKDA- The White Cockade
S:Rutherford's 2nd selection of 200 CD's, c 1764
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:C|
K:B phrygian
G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|Bd2e|dBc/B/A/G/|BA2G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|
ABg3/2a/|b/a/g/e/ d/e/g/e/|dBB::B/c/|
dBgB|dB2B/c/|dBgB|aA2G/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|
ABg3/2 a/|b/a/g/e/ d/e/g/e/|dBB:|]

X:3
T:WHTCOKDB- The Ranting Highland Man
S:Aird's Airs, I, c 1778
Q:1/4=120
L:1/4
M:C
K:B phrygian
G/A/|BBBA/G/|BBBg|BBBA/G/|A/G/A/B/AG/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|
ABgf/g/|ag/f/gf/e/|dBB::B/c/|dBgB|ddde|dc/B/gf/g/|
aAAG/A/|BBc/B/A/G/|ABgf/g/|ag/f/gf/e/|dBB:|]

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 03:35 PM

Sorcha, check your Mudcat e-mail. yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 12:54 PM

The file COMBCOD2.TXT on my website now contains stressed note and mode codes for 6124 British Isles old popular and traditional tunes. These are for scales of from 4 to 11 notes and fall into 169 different modes. www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 10:38 AM

White Cockade and several others are circular majors that don't end on the keynote, and look like phrygian if you go by final note and key signature.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 12:56 AM

Art,

JJ Niles' dulcimer as I understand it came from a converted cello.

Actually, Jean Ritchie was responsible for popularizing the dulcimer. JJ Niles instrument never caught on. Frank Warner may have known about the dulcimer but most of his songs were sung by him accapella. Jean's influence in promotion and popularization of the dulcimer is indisputable. Susan Reed might have used it along with the harp in some of her earlier performances as did Andrew Rowan Summers. But Jean brought it into the limelight.

Have you heard Mountain Born? I think it's a classic. If I were to give a grammy for best folk album in a long while it would be to Jean for this one.

Snuffy, I don't think White Cockade or Cambells are Coming qualify as the Phrygian mode. They would be Ionian (a gapped scale without the seventh note) or based on a standard major scale.

Phyrigian Mode would be:

1, b2, b3,4, 5, b6, b7 8

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 26 Mar 00 - 12:42 AM

Okiemockbird,

The reason you are having trouble is because you are thinking it rather than hearing it. Modifying it from the major scale will help you to hear it. Harmony is about codifying what a musician hears rather than creating mathematical formulae.

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 07:13 PM

Corrections to the "guitar chords" in the Beethoven piece above:

Measure 7, beat 1: Should be "Dm" instead of "Am"

Measure 10, beat 3: Should be "C" instead of "G"

Measure 22, beat 3: Should be "G7" instead of "Bm"

Measures are numbered by counting the two pick-up beats, "C A", as measure 1.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 06:33 PM

Haven't bugged out on this, I just have said all I know that would be helpful, if you need anymore, we should start a new thread, this one is now over 100. I do have sheet music for mountain dulcimer tuining for Locrian mode, but it is tune written just for that purpose, and not anything any body would know. If you want it, message me with address. PS--my White Cockade and Cambells are Ionian, would be interested in the Phrygian arrangements. See my e mail at bbc's, or message me.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 05:39 PM

That isn't actually meant to be played on a guitar (even assuming I transcribed all the harmonies right!) It's just that I don't know how to represent part music in ABC other than by writing out each part separately in the fashion of the middle ages and renaissance. Instead of that, I have tried to represent B's harmonization by means of formal guitar chords.

If I were actually intabulating to the guitar, I would probably end up with something that had far fewer chord changes.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 25 Mar 00 - 03:24 PM

Oh man, Beethoven on guitar. How on earth did you figure out how to do that? Whew.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 10:31 PM

Niles's dulcimer-on-steroids might be an eccentric design when viewed from the reference point of the Kentucky, Virginia, and North Carolina families of dulcimer. But he called it a dulcimer, people who heard it thought they were hearing a dulcimer, and so by that roundabout means he publicized the dulcimer.

Frank Warner's dulcimer was made by a North Carolina maker in a traditional hourglass shape.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Art Thieme
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 09:29 PM

That thing John Jacob Niles called a dulcimer was nothing like any Appalachian dulcimer I've ever seen. It was more like a guitar that had been cut in half and then had gland trouble. Where did all those strings come from? I had a hard time taking J.J.N. seriously after he claimed so many of the songs he'd written were traditional.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 08:49 PM

Here is Beethoven's lydian ditty. I have tried to represent Beethoven's harmonization approximately (very approximately) by means of guitar chords.

X:1
T:Sacred Song in the Lydian Mode
C:Ludwig van Beethoven, from quartet #15, Op. 132.
K:C
M:4/4
L:1/4
C A |"C" G c2 "Am" F |"C" G "F" F F2 | "F" F2 "C" E2 | "Dm" D2 "C" E2 | "F" F2 "G" G2 |
"Am" F2 a d | e f "G" g f | "C" e "Bm" G "C" G2 | "F" A2 "G" c2 | "F" A2 "C" G2 | "F" F2 "G" D2 | "C" E2 z2 |
z2 G "C" C | "Bm" D "C" E "Am" E2 | "Am" c2 "Em" B2 | "C" c2 "F" A2 | "Bm" B2 "C" c2 | "G" d2 g c |
"G" d "C" e f "C" e | "Bm" B "C" c "F" c2 | "F" c2 "Bm" d2 | "C" G2 "F" A2 | "G7" D2 "C" E2 | "F" F2 ||

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 24 Mar 00 - 04:39 PM

Thanks, Snuffy, and all -- I believe that Beethoven's string quartet, Op. 132 has a movement in the Lydian mode. I know that because it was what got me started on this long and modular road 4 short days ago. It would be great to have other tunes. I am still absorbing this information, so who knows what stupid questions may erupt.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Snuffy
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 08:10 PM

Peter T

You asked for some reasonably well-known examples. I've been searching the ABCs I've downloaded and come up with these for starters:

Dorian: Garry Owen, Cuckoos Nest, 17 Come Sunday

Mixolydian: Paddy O'Rafferty, Three Sheepskins, Jolly Beggarman, Morisco

Phrygian: White Cockade, Campbells are Coming, Bessie Bell & Mary Gray

Lydian: I found half-a-dozen tunes, but none that I'd heard of.

Locrian: Couldn't find any.

Let me know if you want any of these posting.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 02:23 PM

Neil,

You only think you're playing a pentatonic scale--but that is another discussion;-)

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Neil Lowe
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 02:11 PM

It sure sounds like there's some interesting information being imparted here...too bad I can't understand it. What was it Rick Fielding said to me in another thread about getting too complicated?: "Neil, we're just folkies here..." as if to say that this folk music stuff is relatively straightforward. Well, if that's the case, I'm glad I'm primarily a blues enthusiast...just stick to the good ole' pentatonic scale in the familiar blues keys: A, E, G, and D, mostly.

I think I've got a plan, though. A la Marlon Perkins I'll hold the camera while Peter T. wrestles the alligator, euphemistically speaking. Then when he posts his Eureka summation, which, after all the mental energy he's expended, should be in terms that even I can understand, I will step in and greedily devour the fruits of all his labor. My friends will be so impressed, the neighbors equally astounded, with the depth and breadth of my knowledge, obtained at a fraction of the effort it cost to assemble it. I have no shame.

Regards, Neil

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 02:02 PM

Actually, the dulcimer revival began in the late 30s with John Jacob Niles and Frank Warner. Jean Ritchie (born c. 1914) was still a young lass in those days. But it was indeed bonnie Jean who took the Appalachian dulcimer to the Newport Folk Festival at a critical time. It attracted enough attention that the hammered dulcimer people had to call one of their societies the Original Dulcimer Something-or-other in order to distinguish themselves.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Art Thieme
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 01:47 PM

Good folks,

I'd suggest, as I tried to indicate in my previous post here, that it would be EASIER for folkies to get a handle on the idea of modes as they apply to folkdom (and ear musicians like me) to USE an Appalachian dulcimer to ACTUALLY SEE how the modes/scales change on the dulcimer fingerboard as you re-tune and start from a different place/fret/home tone.

Some of you know that JEAN RITCHIE from Viper, Kentucky is the single PERSON MOST RESPONSIBLE for bringing the 3-stringed mountain dulcimer and, therefore the modes, to the attention of all of us. I just can't yell that loud enough from here. I do want the younger folks new to this folk world to know that it was Jean and her family who showed the instrument to the whole U.S.A.----and then to the world. People can add strings or double 'em up all they want, it's still Ms Jean Ritchie who brought the dulcimer out of the hills and lovingly gave it to all of us.

Jean, I love you. And THANKS !!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 01:09 PM

Ahh, well, that goes a long way to explaining why no note is sounded when I get to that place in the music--sorry--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 12:08 PM

The confusion about the labeling of modal scales comes from the fact that they were supposedly conceived before our standard notational system. The way of identifying them came about later by relating them to the C major scale. Then, subsequently, to the other keys. The best way to identify a mode is to ignore the scale it's derived from. To call, for example, an A dorian in the key of G is unnecessary unless you are concered with modulations as in jazz. It's best to consider the A dorian as it's own entity and forget the G major scale.

A good way of identifying the pitches to the respective modes would be as follows. Alter the A dorian scale from the D major scale. It would look like this:

1,2, b3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8. Altered from the D major scale it would be D, E, F natural (altered from F#) G, A, B (the distinctive dorian note) C natural (altered from C#) and the octave D. This is a good way to understand it through ear training. Hear the alterations from the major scale.

Phrygian mode: 1, b2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 8 Lydian mode: 1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Myxolydian mode: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, b7, 8 Aeolian mode: (same as a natural minor scale) 1, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7, 8 Lochryian mode: (A theoretical mode, not found in folk music) 1, b2, b3, 4, b5, b6, b7, 8

Do the respective alterations in each key and you will begin to hear these modes.

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 12:08 PM

In my dialect of abc, "z" indicates a rest. T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 11:46 AM

I reset the Key to D and went into the play menu under intonation and set it to Dorian--I think that this solves my problem--next question, in the fourth from the last measure, there is a z2 which plays as a sort of click--what note should this be?

Aloha,

Ted

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 11:13 AM

M.Ted, that's wierd. I thought all abc software would respond correctly if the formal, written key signature were specified in the K-field, while not all abc software would accept "D-dorian" there. Maybe this is a bug.

Obviously if you specify D-minor you need to set all the B's to B-natural by hand (that would be B^ in a D-minor context, wouldn't it ? I seldom use accientals in abc notation)

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 11:07 AM

Okie--I had to change the Key designation in order to get your abc file to play--the problem that I have is that I had to change it to Dm and now I don't know if I should leave the modulation as original, or change it to Dorian, in order to get it to sound right--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 10:39 AM

Peter T--

You sound like you've got it--and I am really glad--

Thank you for sticking with this line of questioning till you got what you needed--it is the only way to learn about music, even if it seems unpleasant and messy--a lot of people don't have the tenacity to hang in through the flak, confusion, and periodic despair, and the result is that they get hung up on a question that they never quite understand the answer to, and never get any farther--

I am going to save this thread, because you managed to squeeze a lot of very useful information out of people--though most of is fairly dense and requires further interpretation--

It also shows what a wonderful resource Mudcat can be--

Aloha,

Ted

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 10:30 AM

I think y'all have answered all my questions about modes. Now if I could just figure out what the questions were.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 10:26 AM

Peter T., I think I now understand one of your earlier questions. Maybe you've worked out the answer yourself by now, but anyhow:

If you want to generate a mixolydian scale by lowering the 7th of a major scale on the same tonic, then, yes, you do "take into account" the sharps or flats of the major scale. If you want to generate X-mixolydian from X-major, and X-major has Z at the 7th, then you change Z to Z-flat. If X-major has Z-flat at the 7th, then (assuming 12-equal temperament) you lower Z-flat to (Z-1)-natural. If X-major has Z-sharp at the 7th, you lower to Z-natural.

If you want to generate X-dorian by taking X-minor and raising the 6th, and X-minor has Y at the 6th, then you create X-dorian by raising Y to Y-sharp. If X-minor has Y-flat at the sixth, you create X-dorian by raising to Y-natural. If X-minor has Y-sharp at the sixth, you create X-dorian (assuming 12-equal temperament) by raising Y-sharp to (Y+1)-natural.

To answer another question, yes, the X-dorian created by raising the 6th of X-minor is the same X-dorian that you get by a cyclic permutation of (X-1)-major. The X-mixolydian you get by lowering the 7th of X-major is the same X-mixolydian you get by a cyclic permutation of (X+3)-major.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 10:04 AM

Sorry, Okie, missed that earlier. ABC is OK. I am capturing all this fitfully!! yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:41 AM

Peter T., you never confirmed or denied whether abc notation was useful to you.

Just in case it is, here is a dorian air in abc notation:

X:1
T:En ce premier jour de Mai--Source: Bib Nat. fr. 9346, 15th century
M:2/2
Q:1/2=60
K:C
D4A4 | G4c4 | c2(BA)B4 | A8 | G6G2 | F4A4 | A2G3(FED)| E4D4 :|
D4F4 | E4G4 | G6F2 | E4D4 | D4A4 | A4A4 | G4F4 | E8 | D4A4 | G4c4 | c6c2 |
B4A4 | z2 A2G4 | F4E4 | D2G4F2 | E4D4 ||

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM

I don't ordinarily think of a D-minor scale as if it were a D-major scale with a lowered third, sixth, and seventh. I find it more useful to think of it as a cyclic permutation of F-major.

Thinking of a dorian scale in terms of modifying a major scale on the same tonic (by lowering the third and seventh) seems as unhelpful as thinking of a minor scale as a modification of a major scale on the same tonic. I suppose it might lead to insights that might not otherwise occur to one, but if I want to think of a dorian scale as related to other scales, I prefer to think of it as either (1) a cyclic permutation of the major scale with its tonic on the note a step below the dorian's tonic (X-dorian as a cyclic permutation of (X-1)-major); or (2) a minor scale on the same tonic with a raised 6th (X-dorian as X-minor with raised 6th.)

Likewise one can think of X-mixolydian as (1) a cyclic permutation of X+3 major or (2) X-major with a lowered 7th. I wouldn't ordinarily think of it as a modification of X-minor, though there's nothing illegal, immoral, or fattening about doing so.

If you look at my chording of Orientis Partibus above, you'll see that the melody-plus-chords has some characteristics of a work in C-major and some characteristics of a work in G-major. I find it easiest to think of it in the first instance as simply mixolydian, rather than "an air in C which closes on the dominant" or "an air in G with a lowered 7th."

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Peter T.
Date: 23 Mar 00 - 09:29 AM

Thanks guest, and all. I think I have perhaps exhausted everyone's good will (temperament) on the technical side, so have decided to go away and see if I can work through a good book on the subject, given this great start. To revert to the really interesting topic, could anyone give some more examples of reasonably well known tunes or types of music in different modes? It would be nice to have some echoing in the ear as we converse.
yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 09:17 PM

No I think you've hit one of the major translation difficulties there Peter. At the moment, the concept of modes is becoming more and more fashionable in the folk music world. I'm not saying they haven't been around before but the terminology is being used by more and more people with less and less accuracy. And lets face it musicians can be very strange about the way they describe what they're doing:

"A third plus a fifth is a seventh.." "You failed grade one didn't you."

Therefore you can get into any number of misunderstandings about what is actually being described. I will say G dorian and mean the relative dorian of F but not everybody does use this. I don't, now I come to think of it know if this correct but it is similar to the way I describe an D minor (relative to F major) scale.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 07:12 PM

Or are we? If I take an A scale with its 3 sharps and "Dorianize it", do I end up with the G major scale with its 1 sharp on F? I guess so. So it is the same after all? yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 06:38 PM

Raising my intelligence level always takes a small army, so I thank all those striving so hard and perhaps futilely to do so -- I feel a bit like a mule in quicksand. At some point I want to get to the more interesting stuff, which is what is used with what. However, if I think I have got this, M. Ted is saying something no one has said before, and it is the crux of what I have been asking -- the difference I have been trying to get straight. To quote: "Don't confuse the G Dorian mode (which simply is a Dorian mode that starts on G) with the Dorian mode relative to the key of G major." THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAS BEEN CONFUSING ME.

Sorry to keep translating this back into my language/examples -- I am trying to keep some personal consistency here. O.K. Let me see if I can get this right.

A G major scale (major meaning standard scale) is G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G. If you use a Dorian mode pattern on it, T-S-T-T-T-S-T, you will end up with a G-Dorian that looks like: G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F-G. The F# is naturalised for one thing, and there is now one flat. We would normally say that we are in the key of F?? Right? When you crank out a G-Dorian, it turns into an F scale, except it starts and ends on a G note. So G-Dorian in this sense could be related to the standard F key. This is a Dorian mode type #1.

But, if you want the Dorian related to the key of G itself, (a) IT IS NOT G-DORIAN but A-DORIAN -- you head for an A. AND (b) WHAT YOU ARE SAYING IS IN THIS DIFFERENT KIND OF DORIAN YOU STICK WITH THE G SCALE, it is not changed. So A-Dorian turns out to be A-B-C-D-E-F#-G-A. You have simply taken the G scale and just gone up one note to start on A. (M. Ted's worked example is the key of A, but I am trying to pull out the difference here between the two versions of modality).

Is this right? It is no wonder I am so confused -- we are talking about two quite different versions of what modes mean.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 06:26 PM

Ach-you volkzingers!! Alvays making with xe funny buziness!

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Art Thieme
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:23 PM

Is Hijaz Makam related to Tommy?

Art

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:21 PM

The essential point about modes is that there are chord progressions based on them which define their character. For example, a C minor chord and an F major chord define a C dorian mode. An A minor chord and a G major chord (or E minor) define an A Aeolian mode. The G major chord and an F major chord define a G Myxolydian mode. A C major and a D major chord define a C Lydian mode. The E major or E minor chord and an F major chord define an E Phrygian mode. The Lochryan mode is a theoretical one and not really found in the folk music tradition. For furthur information on this, Bronson has written something about it and if you really want to get theoretical then you could read Bill Russell's tome on Lydian tonality. (Bill Russell is a jazz arranger and trombonist who has worked with modes in jazz).

Frank

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 05:09 PM

Perhaps this table will help to clarify how the various modes and keys inter-relate (Hope I've got the HTML right!)

Key Signature		Major	Dorian	Phrygian	Lydian	Mixolydian	Minor	Locrian
Sharps	7	C#	D#	E#	F#	G#	A#	B#
	6	F#	G#	A#	B	C#	D#	E#
	5	B	C#	D#	E	F#	G#	A#
	4	E	F#	G#	A	B	C#	D#
	3	A	B	C#	D	E	F#	G#
	2	D	E	F#	G	A	B	C#
	1	G	A	B	C	D	E	F#
	0	C	D	E	F	G	A	B
Flats	1	F	G	A	Bb	C	D	E
	2	Bb	C	D	Eb	F	G	A
	3	Eb	F	G	Ab	Bb	C	D
	4	Ab	Bb	C	Db	Eb	F	G
	5	Db	Eb	F	Gb	Ab	Bb	C
	6	Gb	Ab	Bb	Cb	Db	Eb	F
	7	Cb	Db	Eb	Fb	Gb	Ab	Bb

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:15 PM

According to this link, a G-mixolydian melody "sounds good" (i.e. there are no jarring dissonances) when played over a Gsus4 chord, and a D-dorian melody sounds good when played over a Dm7 chord. M.Ted mentioned some other "sound-good" relationships of this kind. I though he was off topic, but maybe he was right on. Is it relationships of this kind, besides the obvious ones (X-mixolydian over Xsus4, X-dorian over Xm7) just mentioned, that Peter T. is trying to work out ?

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 04:10 PM

It took me so long to write my post that T anwered the question without my knowing it--if it is any help Peter, don't take our posts as being contradictory in any way--we are saying the same thing, just in different ways--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: M. Ted (inactive)
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 03:59 PM

Peter-- I'll try to give you an overall explanation, and hope that it clarifies your questions--

A Scale is a pattern of whole steps and half steps that cover the span of an octave--generally, it includes seven different pitches, the lowest pitch and the highest being the same--

Each of the scales that we have been talking about(Major, Minor, Dorian Mode...etc) has it's own, distinct, order of whole steps and half steps--

Our modern, chromatic, system divides the octave up into 12 equally spaced half steps--this allows you to begin any scale (any pattern of whole steps and half steps) on any note, and apart from the difference in pitch, the relationships will sound the same--

(Note:The older modal system only divided the octave into seven parts, some of which were whole steps, and some of which were half steps--you couldn't change a Dorian mode into a major scale, because they didn't have a pitch in between the F and the G--)

(W=Whole tone, H=Half tone, WH=Whole tone plus a half tone)

If you start on G and use the major scale pattern, W-W-H-W-W-W-H, you will have a G major scale (G-A-B-C-D-E-F#-G) If you use a Dorian mode pattern, W-H-W-W-W-H-D, you will have a G Dorian mode (G-A-Bb-C-D-E-F-G)--

You may even create a scale like my Hijaz Makam (The scale used in "Miserlou") which is H-WH-H-W-H-WH-H, (G-Ab-B-C-D-Eb-F#-G)

Even though you can change a C major scale to a Lydian mode by changing the F to an F#, To change a G major scale--you must raise the fourth step in the scale, which is C, to C#(A G major scale actually has an F# in it)--

Also, don't confuse the G Dorian mode (which simply is a Dorian mode that starts on G) with the Dorian mode relative to the key of G major (which starts on A)

Basically, you have to remember that the sharps and flats are a way of adjusting the pitches to give you the intervals that you need for the scale you want--

If you want a Dorian mode that relates to the key of, say, A--you must start on the second step of the A major scale, and use only the notes that are in the A scale--which are: A-B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A, the mode would be B-C#-D-E-F#-G#-A-B--

It is a mistake to try to try to establish an overarching relationship between the modes--the modes only exist if you use fairly narrow rules to define the place that melodic phrases end--other than this, since the notes are all the same, and you are playing over the same chords, there is no difference between playing in Phrygian mode or an Ionian mode--

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: Amos
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 03:32 PM

Okie, and others who have donated their wisdom to this thread:

I am less skilled in this kind of music theory than Peter T., and I can only say I greatly appreciate your erudition and your patience in clarifying the realities of these terms. Especially working up and down the subject instead, as might be easier, starting from basic terms and working up from there, it is not untrying to communicate a subject with so many curves in it. You are part of what makes this community so strong and vital. Many many thanks.

A

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 02:45 PM

The mixolydian intervals are TTSTTST. If I start on D, then I generate: D, E, F#, G, A, B, C, D. C is already a whole tone below D. The Key-signature for a melody in this scale would show one sharp. Saying that this melody is "in the key of" G might or might not be accurate depending on what was meant. To say that a melody built on an A-dorian scale could be "in the key of" E or F might be accurate in some contexts, though I can't imagine any such context. That is, I can't imagine trying to communicate any information about such a melody alone that I would think was best communicated by saying that the melody was "in the key of" E or F. If the melody were embedded in a larger work, I might designate the larger work as being in the key of E or F. Whether a work in F with an embedded melody in D-mixolydian or A-dorian could be made to sound good is a separate question. In a 12-equal system, where F#=Gb, I suppose one could pull it off if one were clever enough.

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,soddy
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 02:40 PM

Peter, It helps to understand modes, and the chords that can be structured from their scales when accompanying fiddle tunes. The most frequently used modes in fiddle music are the Aeolian, the Dorian, and the Myxolydian. In the Aeolian, or natural minor scale, for instance you would know that the I chord is minor, the IV chord is minor and the V7 chord is minor. In the Dorian mode, the I chord is minor, the IV chord is Major, and the V chord is minor, although more often the VII chord is used which is Major. In the Myxolydian mode, the I chord is Major, the IV chord is Major, the V chord is minor. Usually the VII chord is substituted for the V chord, the VII being Major. It may help to associate a well know fiddle tune with a particular mode, for example Old Joe Clark is a Myxolydian tune, so is June Apple. (Cold) Frosty Morning is a Dorian tune. Does this help?

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Peter T.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 02:22 PM

Hmmm, Okie. Let me try to pinpoint my stupidity. Always a tough task -- where to start....
Suppose I start on a C note. I build a standard scale, C to C. No sharps, no flats. Now I shift to a D note. To build a standard scale starting on D, because of the T-S pattern shift, I need two sharps (F# and C#) to make the key of D in standard. That would be called D-Ionian or D major. O.K.

People usually start a Mixolydian on G, but suppose instead I decide to create D-Mixolydian. I start on D, and go up the scale to the next D. Would the only accidental in it that would appear on standard sheet music be a flat (Mixolydian has a flatted seventh, right?) on C? It would have nothing to do with the F# and C# in a D major scale. We only link it to D because in our standard system, the D to D pattern on the white keys of the piano creates Dorian. So: when Sorcha says you can do this pattern in "any key" that doesn't mean that. What it means is you can do it from any note. So when someone says A-Dorian, it doesn't mean Dorian in the key of G, as my books imply -- they say that in the standard key of G you would have G-Ionian, A-Dorian, etc.-- that is just for neatness sake -- it has nothing to with the key of G -- it just means we have a Dorian scale that starts on A, and it could be in the standard key of E or F, for that matter.

Right???

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 02:06 PM

Here is my table of frequencies copied from the other thread, with additional notes. The first column is pythagorean, the second column is 12-equal. Frequencies are in Herz, A-natural=440 in both systems.

A   440.000   440.000
Bb  463.539   466.164
B    495.000   493.883
C   521.482   523.251
C#  556.875   554.365
D   586.667   587.330
Eb  618.052   622.254
E   660.000   659.255
F   695.309   698.456
F#  742.500   739.989
G   782.222   783.991
Ab  824.070   830.609
G#  835.313   830.609

T.

Subject: RE: Tech Talk: Modes and Scales Again
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 22 Mar 00 - 01:44 PM

The just intonation scale has 21 notes in the octave, but that's just for C major/ A minor. If you want to transpose to other keys you have to add more notes, for a total of 70, but that also lets you play in 6 major/ minor keys that you can't get with the 12 note scale. All 70 notes are given in a file on my website, starting with the basic 21, then adding those needed for 1 sharp or flat on the key signature, then 2, then 3, to 7, then the extra 6.

There is also a treatment there of all the normal 7, 6, and 5 notes scales and a click on to Jack Campin's website for an alternative treatment with many examples as ABCs.

File COMBCOD2.TXT now has over 5300 tunes codes in 166 total modes.