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Subject: Blackwaterside Origins From: Margaret V Date: 06 Apr 00 - 11:01 PM Hi. Does anyone have information on the history of the song "Blackwaterside?" Irish? English? It would seem unnecessary for an Irish song to refer to "the Irish lad" so I've imagined it's English, but set in Ireland. Someone set me straight! Thanks. Margaret |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: DebC Date: 07 Apr 00 - 11:15 AM Me too!!! I would love to have some more background on this one. Deb |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Ringer Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:00 PM I remember having seen it placed in East Anglia (England), but I can't remember the reference at all. Anyway, there is a River Blackwater there. |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 07 Apr 00 - 01:01 PM The version on the DT is from Jean Redpath's recording; she doesn't name a source, other than to say that it's Irish. Probably most people who sing it nowadays are using the version recorded in the 1960s and '70s by, most notably, Sandy Denny and before her, Bert Jansch. Jansch got it from Anne Briggs, who in turn -so far as I know- had it from A.L.Lloyd. Lloyd may have got it from the BBC Sound Archives' recording (made by Peter Kennedy and S. O'Boyle in 1952) of Paddy and Mary Doran. Peter Kennedy gives a version, Down By Blackwaterside, in Folksongs of Britain and Ireland. That one came from the traveller Winnie Ryan, (Belfast, 1952), and has pretty much the tune we all know. Versions with much the same text (but different tunes) were collected in the West Country around the turn of the century by, among others, Baring Gould (The Squire And The Fair Maid) and Gardiner (Abroad As I Was Walking). The issue is muddied by the fact that there are other, overlapping songs such as Captain Thunderbolt (Down By The Shannon Side) and Down By The Riverside and another song called Down By Blackwaterside (The Irish Maid) which has a quite different story. 19th century broadsides of most of those can be found at the Bodleian Library site. Kennedy is inclined to think that the English betrayal song found its way to Ireland, where it picked up the Blackwaterside locale from that song, and an Irish tune from...well, somewhere or other. So far as I can tell, this hasn't been discussed in the Forum before. Anybody else? Malcolm |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: GUEST Date: 07 Apr 00 - 03:56 PM there are Blackwaters in Cork and in Tyrone |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Margaret V Date: 08 Apr 00 - 01:48 AM Malcolm, I'd say you've got the discussion off to a good start! Thanks, all; I'll be watching for any additional information. And now to bed; just got back from a powerfully great Dick Gaughan performance. Listening to him made me proud to be a human. . . (is thread creep permissable if it's a thread you started yourself?) Margaret |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Bob Bolton Date: 08 Apr 00 - 07:22 AM G'day all, (Unnamed) GUEST: Indeed there is a Blackwater in Dublin, for that is near enough to what the name means in Gaelic. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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Subject: Lyr Add: ABROAD AS I WAS WALKING From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Apr 00 - 10:50 AM I thought I'd add one of the West Country songs I mentioned earlier. You'll see the parts it has in common with Blackwaterside. That doesn't prove a direct connection, of course; in other respects the songs are quite different, but on the face of it they do seem to be related lyrically. ABROAD AS I WAS WALKING
Abroad as I was walking
"The younger you are the better
All the fore part of that night
"What did you promise me last night
Go down to your father's garden
It's other farmers' daughters
Tune: Gardiner H.781. Mrs. Goodyear, Axford, Hants. August 1907
Text: Gardiner H.589. Alfred Porter, Basingstoke, Hants. Sept. 1906 |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Margaret V Date: 09 Apr 00 - 04:11 PM Malcolm, thanks for posting that West Country version and for the links to the songs in the DT. Is there a last line missing in the second verse of "Abroad as I was Walking?" These are all such interesting songs. They all feature a "that's what you get for being so loose" verse, but the Scottish version is the only one that recants a bit on the smugness or offers any comfort. "My parents brought me up like a small bird in a cage:" that's a phrase/concept I've never come across before. Is it a common image? |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Apr 00 - 07:46 PM Whoops! There is indeed a line missing. It is: One night with her to lie. Malcolm (Missing line fixed) |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Alan of Australia Date: 11 Apr 00 - 09:08 PM G'day, Thanks to Malcolm the tune for "Abroad As I Was Walking" can be found here at the Mudcat MIDI site.
Cheers, |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: GUEST,Phil Cooper Date: 12 Apr 00 - 02:30 PM Peta Webb recorded Blackwaterside to another tune on her topic album "I Have Wandered in Exile" from the early '70's. (Humorous aside): you mean the usual tune wasn't by Jimmy Page? |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: greg stephens Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:35 AM I note that an earlier posting(Malolm Douglas) attributes the now popular version to rcordings by Bert jansch/Anne Briggs/Sandy Denny. I have a strong feeling that all those versions came directly or indirectly from the singing of Isla Cameron, an actress/singer active in the folk scene late 50's on. Where she got it from, I couldnt say. |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Steve Parkes Date: 14 Mar 03 - 05:49 AM I learned it years ago from Tommy Dempsey, the well-known Brumie Irishman. I don't know where he had it from. His words are the same as the DT version, apart from some small details. Steve |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: GUEST,Philippa Date: 14 Mar 03 - 08:00 AM Blackwaterside as recorded by Liam Clancy (Vanguard album, circa 1968?) and Altan (vocals by Mairead ní Mhaonaigh, much more recently) appears to be an Irish version of this song. |
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Subject: RE: Blackwaterside Origins From: Hester Date: 14 Mar 03 - 01:18 PM In the liner notes of "Anne Briggs: a collection", A.L. Lloyd comments that: "Anne's version is the one popularised from a BBC Archive recording of an Irish traveller, Mary Doran. Anne says her accompaniment 'is based on Stan Ellison's version'." Cheers, Hester |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: GUEST,Claire Date: 16 Aug 06 - 11:26 AM I am resurecting this thread because I am puzzled and hope someone can help me out. I am learning Paddy Tunney's version as sung on Voice of the People compilation. It has some of the same words but a very different and I think, haunting tune. I am curious if anyone has heard this version or knows what addtitional words may have been sung to this tune. I like this version because it does not have the sport and play verse, but rather is a lament for the situation. It is also interesting because the perspective of the singer seems to change through the song. Applologies if this is in another thread, but I have been looking and can't find reference. Here are the words that he sings. As I roved out one bright summers morn down by Blackwaterside I be gazing on the flowers that did bloom all around when a pretty Irish girl I spied Twas red and rosy were her cheeks, golden yellow was her hair As I clasped her by the lilly white hand, I said my young sweetheart fair There be many a good man's daughter Going round from town to town There be many a good man's daughter With her hair all hanging down She'll be rocking the cradle the whole day long singing lo la lo la lo Was there ever a poor misfortunate girl as easily led as you That wasn't the promise you made to me down by blackwaterside that wasn't the promise you made to me when you asked me to be your bride That wasn't the promise you made to me when you swore to be loyal and true When fishes fly and seas run dry I'll return and marry you |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 17 Aug 06 - 02:59 AM Paddy Tunney learned that set from Paddy Doran (see Paddy Tunney, The Stone Fiddle. Dublin: Gilgert Dalton, 1979, 108-9). That means that my guess at Bert Lloyd's source, made six years back, was wrong; unless Mary Doran's set was very different from Paddy's. On the whole, it seems more likely that the version popularised by so many Revival singers derives instead from Winnie Ryan of Belfast, who was recorded by Peter Kennedy and Sean O'Boyle in 1952. Her tune is much as the one now familiar, though the words have changed somewhat. If Bert Lloyd had a hand in it, though, that wouldn't be too surprising. The Altan recording Philippa referred to a couple of messages (and 3 years) ago is precisely the Revival tune and text: they name their immediate source (Gráinne Nic Mhaonagail from Dobhir, Gaoth Dobhar, Donegal), but add "The song was collected in Co. Wexford from a traveller". Without specifics that isn't much help, and doesn't preclude Gráinne's having learned it from standard Revival sources while being vaguely aware that it came from a Traveller. The Clancys got a lot of their songs from the folk clubs rather than directly from tradition, so I'd expect Liam's recording to be of the standard type as well; though, since I don't recall having heard it, that is mere speculation. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 06 - 03:59 AM Malcolm it little matters which version of Blackwaterside Liam Clacy`s sings, this is one powerful rendering, well worth a listen. It is close to the Paddy Tunney version above. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 17 Aug 06 - 04:48 AM Then of course it matters, powerful or not. If it's close to the Tunney set, then it isn't the standard Revival form, and the distinction is worth knowing about. Did Liam say where he got it? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 06 - 12:49 PM Well Malcolm as I have it on a CD, I was more interested in listening to a great folk singer doing justice to a good song. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: GUEST,Claire Date: 17 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM About Liam Clancy's version - is the similarity to Paddy Tunney's version in the words or in the tune. The PT tune and his ornamentation and pace are very compelling and I wonder if either of you have heard it coupled with different words, sund in a different style, and also if the Liam Clancy version has additional words. I do not have that album. Malcolm, yes I noted that th PT liner notes stated that it was collected from Paddy Doran, but I didn't know anything about him. Could you point me in the right direction to find out more? Was he a Connamarra style singer? Did he collect or live in a certain area of Ireland? On a completely other note, I am about to cut another cd and as I compile the liner notes over the next several months, I was wondering if I might contact you off list to discuss song origins for the songs that I am planning to include. Claire |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: greg stephens Date: 17 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM Malcolm Douglas(or anyone else): I commnted a way back on this thread, suggesting that the standard revival version of this song was popularised by Isla Cameron initially. The Anne Briggs/Clanceys etc versions came from hers. Anybody have any recollections or other information on this? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 06 - 01:38 PM The version sung by Liam Clancy has as it first verse the following, One evening fair as I took the air down by Blackwaterside it was in gazing all around me that an Irish boy I spied. There is also river Blackwater in Armagh, and I am sure it is a very common name for many rivers in Ireland |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: greg stephens Date: 17 Aug 06 - 01:41 PM ard mhacha: you seem to be getting very irritated because Malcolm Douglas wants to discuss variant versions of folksongs. Given the purpose of Mudcat, you must find it a very irritating forum altogether. I am sure there must be other forums that don't specialise in the discussions of folksongs: maybe they would be more suitable to your tastes? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 06 - 01:49 PM gREG, If I give you the impression I am being agitated over an interesting discussion, you couldn`t be further ftom the truth. I suggest you read my helpful notes again. I am now listening to Liam Clancy`s singing of this song, great stuff. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: GUEST,Claire Date: 17 Aug 06 - 02:19 PM So the Liam Clancy version has the Paddy Tunney tune with the revivalist words? Maybe someone could clarify. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: greg stephens Date: 17 Aug 06 - 02:22 PM I dont recall that Liam Clancey sang the paddy Tunney tune, but memory can be faulty. ard mahacha is the boy with the recording: what tune does he use. the "standard", or the other? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 17 Aug 06 - 03:13 PM Greg if you Google, Blackwaterside Liam Clancy, you will hear Clancy singing a verse of the song on the Amazon Site. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 17 Aug 06 - 03:24 PM I don't know much about Paddy Doran. Paddy Tunney (Stone Fiddle) writes of meeting him at Glencar in (presumably) the early 1950s, and learning songs from him; Peter Kennedy and Sean O'Boyle recorded him and his wife Mary in Belfast in 1952. According to Kennedy, he was originally from New Ross, Co. Wexford. He was a Traveller; apparently of tinker rather than Romany stock. Several of their songs are in Kennedy's Folksongs of Britain and Ireland, and some 'field' recordings are available from Folktrax. There are some further brief details at http://www.folktrax.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/menus/performer_d.htm Jim Carroll would know more, I expect. Yes, Greg, I ought to have mentioned the Isla Cameron connection; but I had nothing useful to add. I've subsequently found a sound clip which may be of her singing it at http://www.folkways.si.edu/search/AlbumDetails.aspx?ID=1769# Would you confirm that it's her? It's essentially the familiar tune and text; the recording was originally issued in 1962. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Anglo Date: 17 Aug 06 - 04:20 PM Well, I would say that Liam's version is much the same as Isla Cameron's, with some slight differences as you might expect. The tune is similar to, though not quite the same as, the version I remember from Anne Briggs, etc. The contours of the first half of the tune are the same, but the cadence at the end of the first line is different, and the distinctive flat 7 comes at a slightly different place. The second part of the tune is the same. Paddy Tunney's tune is quite different. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: GUEST,GK Date: 18 Aug 06 - 05:42 AM It is an IRISH tune refers to an IRISH river! Here we go again the anti-irish mudcatter brigade pretending that our great tunes were English - Bollox your jealous of the fantastic musical tradition that Ireland has. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 18 Aug 06 - 06:37 AM Greg did you hear Liam Clancy sing Blackwaterside on that short sample on the Amazon Site?. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: greg stephens Date: 18 Aug 06 - 10:30 AM Alas, I'm too technologically challenged to listen to sound clips: I have ntl cable tv internet access and it doesn't do that sort of thing. My own memory (imperfect, possibly, and based on what Isla Cameron told me in the 60's) is that Isla got it, I think, from a Peter Kennedy related source. And sang it round the clubs, and I think recorded it, and that most of the subsequent version, including Clanceys etc, came from her interpretation. Whatever the origins of the song, the "Irish Girl" line does suggest at least an influence from a British version of the song. Just as the tune "The Irish Washerwoman" was so-called in England: in Ireland it was commonly known as "The Washerwoman". However, the general flow of the lyrics, and the tune, sound totally Irish to me. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 18 Aug 06 - 12:42 PM I am never too fussed as to which country a song originates from as long as it please me and if it is Scottish well fair play to the composer, Clancy sings it with great feeling. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: GUEST Date: 18 Aug 06 - 06:25 PM liam sings every song with great feeling. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Mudlark Date: 18 Aug 06 - 09:05 PM I love this song,(tho have no idea what version, above, I'm singing), but heard it from an Irish lad, and love singing it. There was some question,from my source, as to whether it was , "go home, go home to your father's garden" or ..."to your father's castle..." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 19 Aug 06 - 06:44 AM It is garden. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: greg stephens Date: 19 Aug 06 - 08:52 AM This interesting thread prompted me to see what recordings I have, and the only version I could find of the song was a copied tape someone gave me years ago, of Anne Briggs. What intrigues me is: who is playing the guitar on the song? I sort of feel, from what I recall of the era, that it is probably the legeendary Johnny Moynihan. Could someone with an LP or CD, with notes on, tell me who it was? I case she recorded it more than once,the tape has Martinmas Time before Blackwaterside, and the Snow it Melts the Soonest after it. ard mhacha: it is surely interesting to watch songs moving round the world isn't it? It's lovely seeing how they subtly change as they do so. Unfortunately (see a few posts back on this thread), some people have a fanatic desire to claim "ownership" of songs for their own locality, often on the very dubious basis of placename references in songs. And these references, of course, can often be the first bit of a song that changes as it moves (compare Derby, Fyvie and Fennario for another wellknown folk classic). |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: ard mhacha Date: 21 Aug 06 - 04:16 AM Many songs I have heard from I was a boy in Ireland were borrowed from various lands, but sang with enthusiasm and feeling irrespective of their origin. Bheir mio o, Ho ro mo my nut brown maiden, Fear an bata, all from Scottish Gaelic I have heard sung at many a Feis in the north of Ireland, and to-day, with the Fleadhs taking the place of the Feis, these songs along with with many other Scottish Gaelic songs are still sung and loved by all. Long may it continue, as long as the good people continue to give their time and hard work to the Fleadhs these songs will be with us away into the distant future. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: GUEST Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:29 PM Dave Shannon and Sam Bracken c. 1970 used to sing a version of the song which began "one morning fair as I chanced the air...". Wonderful... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: GUEST Date: 21 Aug 06 - 08:28 PM How interesting. It does seem that Paddy Tunney's version is really the odd one out. I wonder if anyone has heard another set of words to his tune? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21 Aug 06 - 11:05 PM "The odd one out" only in the sense that it wasn't adopted much by Revival singers. As we've seen, Paddy Tunney got his set from Paddy Doran. Peter Kennedy recorded the Doran set, and also one from Winnie Ryan; it was, apparently, the latter set which Isla Cameron learned. Likely, Liam Clancy learned it from her. Cameron and Clancy both seem to have made changes to Winnie Ryan's melody, which resulted in the form that we're now familiar with, and which has since been sung by everybody and his or her dog. Some alterations were also made to Winnie Ryan's text at quite an early date, if it was indeed the source of the Revival form. Even if it wasn't, it's pretty clear that all examples of the well-known form (including the Cameron and Clancy recordings, and the later Altan arrangement) derive from a single source; and not so very long ago. The song group (Roud 564, Laws P18) is reasonably large, but the Irish "Blackwater" localisation is rare in tradition, and seems to have been introduced from other "Blackwaterside" songs on different subjects. As to other songs sung to the Doran/Tunney tune, I don't know at the moment; but I'll post the melody here as abc as soon as I have time; perhaps it will be helpful to others. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 22 Aug 06 - 10:56 PM Here are both tunes for comparison. X:1 T:Down by Blackwaterside S:Winnie Ryan, Belfast, 1952 N:BBC recording 18551 N:Roud 564, Laws P18 B:Kennedy, Folksongs of Britain and Ireland. No 151 p 351. L:1/8 Q:1/4=100 M:3/4 K:Bb D FF|B3 c (3ded| w:One morn-ing fair, I took_ the M:4/4 c3 c BB _AG| w:air Down by Black-wa-ter- M:3/4 F2 (3zDF (3GFG|B3 D (3EDE|F2-(3FCD (3EDC|B,3 B, HB,|] w:side O, then, gaz_ing all a-round__ me_ 'Twas an Ir_ish girl I spied. X:2 T:Blackwater Side S:Paddy Tunney; previously Paddy Doran (early 1950s). B:Paddy Tunney, The Stone Fiddle. Dublin: Gilbert Dalton, 1979; 108-9. N:Roud 564, Laws P18 L:1/8 Q:1/4=100 M:4/4 K:Eb e d|c2 (de) c2 (BF)|(GF) E2 C2 (EF)|(GB-B) (G/F/) E3 E| w:Oh as I roved_ out one_ morn_ing fair, down_ by__ Black_wa-ter E6 E F|(3G2F2G2 B2 (cd)|e3 c d2 e c|d (GG) =A (3B2-c2d2| w:side, I being gaz_ing all a_round (e) me, when an I-rish_ young girl_ I c6 c B|(3G2F2G2 B2 c d|(3e2c2d2 e c|d (G-G=A) (3B2c2d2| w:spied. Oh for red and (e) ros-y it was her cheeks, gol-den yel-low__ was_ her c6 (ed)|c2 (de) c2 (BF)|(3G2F2E2 C2 E F|B2 G F E3 E|E6|] w:hair. I_ caught her_ by the_ lil-y white hand and I said: "My young la-dy fair." |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: GUEST,Billy Finn, Donegal, Ireland Date: 13 Sep 07 - 09:21 PM The best version of Blackwaterside is by Anne Briggs. I think she accompanies the song on guitar, slightly out of tune. Bert Jansch and Led Zeppelin brought the tune to a different place. Anne Briggs.....what a talent!!! Billy |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Declan Date: 14 Sep 07 - 03:35 AM Altan have recorded two different versions of this song. The first (source mentioned above) is more or less the version as sung by Annie Briggs. They have also recorded the Paddy Tunney version, which they have called "As I roved out" to avoid confusion between the two versions. Of course this could cause confusion with the many other songs that go under the title "As I roved Out". |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: The Doctor Date: 14 Sep 07 - 07:23 AM Tony Rose recorded it on 'Young Hunting', the words as DT, to the alternative tune given. The only printed copy I have is in a book called '100 Folk Songs and New Songs', by Alasdair Clayre. The words again are the same, the tune sounds like a variant and looks like Malcolm's X1 above, and the notes credit it to the singing of Isla Cameron. Listening to Tony's tune there seemed to be a melodic similarity to 'The first time ever'. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Bernard Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:43 AM Debra Cowan (Mudcatter DebC) also does a great version of the song on her album 'The Long Grey Line' (yes, the UK spelling!), and the Oysterband version (from Rise Above) is the theme to Ali O'Brien's Sounds of Folk on Radio Britfolk and Oldham Community Radio. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Mr Happy Date: 14 Sep 07 - 10:57 AM http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9-2uP1ztiZk |
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Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside From: Jim I Date: 14 Sep 07 - 12:24 PM I'm puzzled! 'Doctor' above says that the Tony Rose notes attribute the song to the singing of Isla Cameron. I've just checked my sleeve of "Young Hunting" and he doesn't mention Isla instead citing Louis Killen as the inspiration for Tony's style of singing the song. On the record itself the song is attributed "trad: coll Kennedy" |
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