Origins: Blackwaterside

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: The Doctor
Date: 14 Sep 07 - 02:27 PM

Apologies. My contribution was not clear. The credit to Isla Cameron is in the book '100 Folk Songs'.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,?
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 11:08 AM

Many versions of this song have surfaced over the years including in the Led Zeppelin song titled "Black Mountainside".

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 11:31 AM

I queried who played the guitar on the Anne Briggs recording earlier, whether it was her or Johnny Moynihan.After consulting Johnny Moynihan on this, I can now confirm it was Anne Briggs, and she was copying(or adapting) Stan Ellison's guitar part, as mentioned earlier on this thread. Stan was a Manchester guitarist.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 11:40 AM

For those who like to follow the twists and turns of the revival, the tradition, an the two sides of the Irish Sea: I have just listened to the link to Isla Cameron's recording earlier(released 1962).That version of the tune was indeed the one printed in Alisadair Clare's book, which gave her singing as the source for it. However, by the end of the 60's, after the popularisation of a slightly dissimilar tune by Anne Briggs, Isla Cameron had adjusted her version to correspond very closely to Anne's. That change certainly affected my opinion of who learned what from whom! Broadlty speaking, I thought Anne Briggs learned it off Isla cameron. Well, if she did, she changed it a bit, and Isla changed hers to match. The folk process.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: Tradsinger
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 12:06 PM

Interesting thread. All I can contribute is that a lot of southern English gypsies sang a song usually called 'Down by the Old Riverside' or variants of that title, which has all the Blackwaterside verses and more. There are various versions of it on the new Brazil family CD put out by Musical Traditons. See
http://www.mustrad.org.uk/records.htm
.
I was always intrigued by the double standards in the song - the boy promises to marry the girl, seduces her and then says he wouldn't marry someone who did such a thing. (Bastard!)

As to the origins, all I can say is that the English versions tend to be longer which suggests it travelled Westwards across the Irish Sea. But that's only a theory,

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 03:48 PM

Sheila Stewart sings a beautiful version which she learned in Ireland.
I have always associated it with the North East of Ireland, but there are a number of Blackwaters and we were told by Travellers that when a tinsmith died, it was a custom among them to throw his tools into the one in Kerry.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 05:59 PM

I have an old recording on tape from a programme by Tommy Sands from Downtown Radio this is the version by Liam Clancy and I doubt if it can be bettered by any of the other singers mentioned here.
Mr Happy your man sounds like an awful imitation of Van Morrison, dreadful.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 07 - 06:08 PM

GUEST I am so sorry you are feeling out of sorts.Perhaps a laxative, or a soothing inhalation of clarisage and feverfew?

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Foolish girl
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 06:24 AM

The worst thing....not by Blackwaterside though, I experienced it. And paid.
Not the first, not the last to be charmed by sweet words, black hair and blue eyes.

Thanks for all posts. It's a beautiful song, so true and sad.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 05:19 PM

Dubh Linn (Black pool).....Anglicized as Dublin.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: Tradsinger
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 05:53 PM

English traveller versions often refer to "The Old Riverside" and tell the whole story - Boy meets girl, promises marriage, seduces her, tells her to go back to her father, she refuses to go home 'in disgrace', so boy drowns girl and runs away to sea. A sordid little tale. Look up the Brazil family versions.

Tradsinger

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: gecko
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 07:43 PM

Polly Bolton's version is on the Bert Jansch Encomium 'People on the Street' and is a very unusual treatment of this lovely song. I love it but realise it may not be to the taste of the traditionalists.
YIU
gecko

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 31 Aug 09 - 08:20 PM

I was just looking at this and noticed that Malcolm's abc for the Paddy Tunney version has an error in bar 10 (which is musically incomplete above; the triplet is incorrect). I've put the correct version below. I've also changed the key signature to refelect the fact that it's a Lydian mode tune, though in The Stone Fiddle it's notated with key signature Eb and the As in the music have natural accidentals.

Mick

---

X:2
T:Blackwater Side
S:Paddy Tunney; previously Paddy Doran (early 1950s).
B:Paddy Tunney, The Stone Fiddle. Dublin: Gilbert Dalton, 1979; 108-9.
N:Roud 564, Laws P18
L:1/8
Q:1/4=100
M:4/4
K:EbLyd
e d|c2 (de) c2 (BF)|(GF) E2 C2 (EF)|(GB-B) (G/F/) E3 E|
w:Oh as I roved_ out one_ morn_ing fair, down_ by__ Black_wa-ter
E6 E F|(3(G2F2)G2 B2 (cd)|e3 c d2 e c|d (GG) A (3(B2c2)d2|
w:side, I being gaz_ing all a_round (e) me, when an I-rish_ young girl_ I
c6 c B|(3G2F2G2 B2 c d|e c3 d2 e c|d (G-GA) (3(B2c2)d2|
w:spied. Oh for red and (e) ros-y it was her cheeks, gol-den yel-low__ was_ her
c6 (ed)|c2 (de) c2 (BF)|(3G2F2E2 C2 E F|B2 G F E3 E|E6|]
w:hair. I_ caught her_ by the_ lil-y white hand and I said: "My young la-dy fair."

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 11:50 AM

Way back, 9 years ago[!], the OP added a comment in reply to another post, saying she had been struck by the phrase Bird In A Cage in one version posted which she hadn't come across before, and asking, was it in any other versions? Nobody ever answered so far as I could see: so, in case she is still wondering —

There is a version, or a related song, actually called Bird In A Cage, titled thus on DT, and in DT's named source:- Stephen Sedley's Seeds Of Love book from all those years ago. It has a structure and a tune closely related to the T·For·Tommy family of songs, even including the uninvolved narrator 'lean[ing] his back to a garden wall to hear two lovers talk', but does not have any analogous chorus to that group.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 01 Sep 09 - 12:50 PM

In her post, she referred to the Scottish version, but in fact the phrase is in the West Country version that Malcolm posted: Abroad As I Was Walking, from The Wanton Seed, from the Gardiner mss. Stephen Sedley's version in the Seeds of Love was collated from Sharp and Gardiner according to the notes on the song page.

I haven't got The Seeds of Love, so I can't check for exact sources against those given for , but it's possible the lines My parents brought me up like a small bird in a cage are from the same source! Of course they may have just been floating.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Blackwaterduncan
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:23 AM

Just to rile EVERYBODY!



Blackwaterside

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Ron A
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 11:45 AM

I have ben thinking about the origins of this beautiful song, which I would like to throw in as a theory, based on the real history of the Ireland.

Queen Elizabeth (the first) sent her commander Henry Bagenal as Marshall of Ireland to sort out the Irish rebel Hugh O'Neill, 2nd Lord of Tyrone, who was causing the Tudor monarch a great deal of trouble at the time.

The English had built an outpost on the banks of the river Blackwater very near to O'Neill's power base. Seeing this as a threat O'Neill laid siege to the outpost. Bagenal was obliged to send 4000 men to both relieve & resupply the outpost. Unfortunately for the English, O'Neill got word of their approach & arranged an ambush, killing nearly all of the English troops & mortally wounding their commander Bagenal. This become the known later as the battle of the Yellow ford.

Could this song be a thinly vailed reference to Irish History?

Could it be that the girl in the song who is so badly deceived is Queen Elizabeth the first, the Irish lad who deceives her O'Neill & the garden the girl is told to go back to be her father's (Henry the Eigth) Hampton court palace?

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray
Date: 26 Feb 11 - 03:31 PM

Nah. It's about Blackpool & the 100-times-a-day scenario that's played out even out of season. They've even built a sculture in honour of all countless innocences lost & hearts broken:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tixylix/3734598641/

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: DanMan
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 01:37 AM

Hello all,

I apologize for bumping a very old thread, but I was wondering if anyone out there could help me to locate a recording of Paddy Doran's version of "Blackwaterside". It was recorded by Peter Kennedy in 1952 and possibly aired on his BBC radio show before eventually getting released on the Folktrax cassette "Puck Fair - Irish Tinker Singers Vol. 3" (FTX-168, now out of print).

I've been able to locate recordings of "Blackwaterside" by Paddy's wife Mary Doran as well as Winnie Ryan, but Paddy's version has thus eluded me.

You can contact me here on the forum or you can contact me directly at res122orm (AT) frontier.com

THANKS!!

P.S. I'm happy to share my recordings if anyone is interested. Just drop me a line.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: Joe Offer
Date: 23 Apr 11 - 02:08 AM

Hi, Dan -
You may want to contact Mudcatter Dick Greenhaus by personal message, or at http://www.camscomusic.com/

Dick has had the rights to reissue some of the Kennedy Folktrax recordings - maybe yours is one of them.

Good luck.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Wooly Rhino
Date: 12 Oct 11 - 11:32 PM

There is a "Blackwater River" running through the town of Fermoy, in the County Cork. It's a pretty wide and powerful stream, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were the largest of the Blackwater Rivers in Ireland. Fermoy was a garrison town in the bad old days of English occupation, so there would have been a fair few people there who were not Irish.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,coinman
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:05 PM

I watched Eric Claptons' 2010 "Crossroads" DVD yesterday. Bert Jansch said in the intro It was a Scottish Folk song.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Coinman
Date: 26 Oct 11 - 07:21 PM

Back tracking, I watched again just to make sure. What he said was "A Traditional IRISH song". Sorry about the last post.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,GUEST, Jon Mason
Date: 28 Oct 11 - 08:25 AM

Hi all,

Going back to the "Bird In A Cage" issue above, am very interested in this as have been wondering about social context of Blackwaterside and all those songs of a girl getting led on and left pregnant - and wondering how much they were:

a) Ribald songs laughing at her misfortune
b) Punitive moralising warning girls of the dangers of relations with young men
c) Heartfelt expressions of anguish at unreturned love and betrayal

I appreciate the answer will have become "all of the above" from how they've been sung since "composition", but very curious about to what extent they were each possibility - and the "Bird In A Cage" reference feels like it's relevant to this! Would be grateful for any thoughts!

Jon

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Guest Sp
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 07:46 AM

The American variant of "Blackwaterside"/"The Irish Girl"( "Good Morning My Pretty Little Miss")has a reference to "a little bird in the cage."

I can sing as lonesome a song
As any little bird in the cage.
O sixteen weeks astray have gone. And
scarcely fifteen years of age."


I see "Bird kept in a cage" is in the Pepys ballad "The Western Knight":

"...Now may I Hue from joyes exilde,
like a bird kept in a cage
fifteen weeks gone with child,
and but fourteen years of age.
Farewell, farewell, thou faithlesse Knight,
sith thou wilt me forsake,
oh heavens grant all maidens bright,
by me may warning take."

The Scottish Child Ballad "The Broom Of Cowdenknowes" seems to scan very well to the tune of Blackwaterside. (Child variant C quoted below).

"It was on a day whan a lovely may
Was cawing out her father's kye,
And she spied a troop o'gentlemen,
As they war passing bye.
"O show me the way, my pretty maid,
O show me the way the way," said he;
"My steed has just now rode wrong,
And the way i canna see." etc

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: mayomick
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 09:06 AM

Caveat Lector : I've been told on a number of occasions that I am prone to making musical connections where none exist .

Does anybody think that the melody might have been in Ewan Macoll's head when he composed The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face?

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 01:13 PM

I have certainly thought the 2 tunes had marked similarities, and you may well be right, Mick. The opening couple of bars are very similar and the phrasing. When did MacColl write his song?

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 25 Nov 12 - 01:41 PM

Antone wishing to look at the history in print of this ballad in England and Ireland going back to about 1670 will find useful info at

http://www.mustrad.org.uk/article/dungheap.htm

Article 19 The Distressed Maid. I wrote this some time ago so there may be further things to add. Tried to do blue clicky but don't know if it worked. Paddy Tunny's version seems to be a concoction of various pieces, some of them from 'The Distressed Maid', a beautiful song ne'ertheless.

Back in the thread someone suggested a list of possible motives for writing the song. In my experience these songs set out as warnings not to fall into the same trap. The 17th century ballads often use the word 'warning' in the title. Of course as the songs are rewritten for new audiences the purposes can change. Even some of the Child Ballads seem to have started out in this way.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,maggie connoes
Date: 15 Jan 13 - 10:52 PM

my grandmother is singing on some of these cds i would like to get it if i can but dont no how to order it she is singing many songs her name is mary connors recorded puck fair she is singing with paddy doran blind man can see if u could pleas help i would love to get it for daddy u can contac me on [e-mail] thank you

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Joop Jansen
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 06:13 AM

Hello,

My name is Joop and I live in The Netherlands (Europe).
I'm very interested in the history of traditional songs.
When studying "Blackwaterside", I came across this thread.
My starting point was Zep's "Black Mountain Side", which Mr Page took from the guitar arrangement of Bert Jansch's "Black Water Side".
Bert Jansch on his turn had learned "Black Water Side" from Anne Briggs, who recorded her version finally in 1971.
The linernotes suggest that Anne Briggs got her version from a 1952 BBC Archive recording by Mary Doran (probably through the intervention of A.L. (Bert) Lloyd).
But from opinions expressed in this thread it seems most likely that she learned it from Isla Cameron's 1959 recording.
And Isla Cameron on her turn would have learned the song, either directly (from a 1952 BBC Archive recording by Winnie Ryan) or via the intermediary services of the singer A. L. Lloyd.
Thus far I have heard the version of Mary Doran and, although they are similar, it's not the version Isla Cameron based her version on.

But I've not heard Winnie Ryan's version fo comparison.
So if anyone can help me with an MP3 of the 1952 Winnie Ryan version of "Down by Blackwaterside" I would be very thankful.
You can contact me here on the forum or you can contact me directly at jooriginal9 (AT) gmail.com

Joop greets from The Netherlands

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 08:49 AM

FWIW, there are three versions of Blackwater side on the British Library Sounds site.

Subject: RE: Origins: Blackwaterside
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Jul 21 - 10:14 AM

Thank you Peter,

But I'm specifically looking for the 1952 Winnie Ryan version.

Joop greets