BS: I'm scared of Americans and Guns

Subject: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,lizzie
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:25 PM

I'm new here, and I live in england.

Why do so many of you americans want to have guns? Nobody with any sense needs a gun. Humanity invented these things called 'words' a while back - used reasonably, they work quite well!

please stop wanting 'the right' to own guns, it makes me scared

Lizzie

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST, Threadie
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:34 PM

Right on darlin'. Imagine the Brits with guns eh?

Oh Praise....?, another newbie.

Come and welcome her....

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:45 PM

Lizzie...it's a bit difficult for a hunter to bring down a deer by shouting "Bang! You're dead!" The use of a rifle is generally more effective. And believe it or not, the preservation of many of our wilderness and wetlands area here in America is often directly attributable to hunters. I own a 16 ga shotgun and an 8mm Mauser hunting rifle myself, and I do believe in the right of citizens to the responsible possession and use of such dangerous weapons for activities related to hunting.

I will not attempt to excuse the possession of handguns, semi-automatic, or automatic weaponry by the public. There is, I believe, no excuse for possession and use of such. And I believe that the use of shotguns and rifles should be more tightly controlled, through a licensing program such as that used by the Motor Vehicle Bureaus in most states. I also believe that fines and punishments for crimes in which guns are used should be greatly increased in severity.

When you state that "nobody with any sense needs a gun", you badly oversimplify the case regarding guns and gun control.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:50 PM

Don't be scared of us. What you see on the news about people killing each other with guns and what not is actually a fairly small percentage of the American population (I know these damn statistics again that have been shown over and over again). I grew up in North Idaho where guns are pretty prevalent (hunting rifles and handguns). I grew up around guns and I know how to use them. You have to understand though that with our country's history and the histories of the people who fled here from their own governments and other persecutors, a good many folks here are leery of the government taking away anything they see as being theirs by right. That is all I have to say on the subject. Blessed be.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:52 PM

this is a joke, right?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Joe Offer
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:54 PM

Well, Lizzie - I have to admit that although I'm strongly in favor of banning handguns and restricting the use of hunting weapons, gun's aren't something you see every day in the United States. Sure, you see police officers carrying them in their holsters, but I can recall only one occasion in my life when I saw somebody carrying a gun in a way that frightened me. The guy and his wife had shotguns pointed at me, afraid that I was some sort of bad guy. It took me a while to convince them that I was indeed a Federal agent, armed only with a ballpoint pen. After that, they settled down and put away their guns, and we all had a good old time.
-Joe Offer, retired fed-

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Caitrin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 06:56 PM

First, all guns are not used for killing people. Some are used for hunting and target shooting. Many people who want to own guns do not want them for the purpose of shooting people. The idea that everyone who has a gun plans to kill someone is positively ridiculous. It is a serious mistake to equate a hunting rifle with a handgun. Used responsibly, guns should not be feared. They should be respected and treated with a definite sense of their power. Unfortunately, there are lots of gun owners who do not treat their weapons with proper respect, which results in my father having to pick up a woman whose chest has been perforated by a shotgun which was left chambered, cocked, safety off, ready to fire, and unattended. Also unfortunately, there is a criminal element which does use guns for killing people. Thus, many people feel the need to have a gun for protection from others with guns. So, yes, there are many Americans who want to have guns because there are people on whom words are not effective.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Lizzie
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:01 PM

This is what scares me:

I say that no-one with any sense should need a gun. Lonesome EJ then tells me that I'm naive.

Maybe I am, but I'm scared by the fact that I even need to bring this up:

Guns are wrong!

Guns kill people!

Gun control NOW!

Sorry, but I feel strongly

Lizzie

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Margo
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:01 PM

So Lizzie, what do you do when someone WON'T negotiate with words? It's a FACT that words don't always work. The British troops were very surprised to find the American colonial farmers armed and ready to stand up for themselves. I guess not much has changed there! :o)

Margo

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:03 PM

Lizzie; While I can understand your feelings about guns, I must say I am a bit dismayed that you are scared of us Americans. Yes, the press does tend to convey a violent society when America is mentioned and there is some truth to that. But, it is a small minority of our society. I own one gun a replica 1863 Springfield that I use strictly at Civil War reenactments. I have fired live rounds meaning bullets through it once at a demonstration for the Boy Scouts. I like to think I'm a nice and non-threatening guy. If you base your fear on what the media portrays, then I hope that you will either visit us here in the United States or get to know some of us here at Mudcat. I believe that will allay your fears. V/R Neil

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:07 PM

I've known English people with guns and they would be just as scarey as Americans if they wanted to use them the wrong way...

Jon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Caitrin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:14 PM

I hate sounding so bloody NRA-ish, but this is ridiculous! A handgun is NOT the same thing as a hunting rifle. I firmly stand by my right to kill deer and eat them. Words are not known for their ability to create venison. Where does your dinner come from, Lizzie? Unless you're a vegetarian, somebody killed it. Now, whether he used a gun or not, I'm not sure. However, it's definitely quite dead. People tend to complain, otherwise. Every gun is not used for killing a person!

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:21 PM

Caitrin, I have been a vegetarian at times in my life but I have never had anything against a person who shoots an animal for food. I do however object those who kill animals for pleasure... brings me on to one of my pet hates - fox hunting - I'd love to see the participants swap roles with the fox.

Jon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:35 PM

and why are we so willing to ban handguns? firearms are not only for hunting? Who needs to hunt in America, these days?? Very few of us! Handguns I believe are owned primarily for personal defense. I realize many people also owns them for the sport of target shooting, and even some for hunting.

I believe we ought to consider banning alcohol. It destroys many many many more lives each year then do firearms, and it has no value to a reasonable person.

and while we're at it; I don't like bad things. Let's stop them all from happening!

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:50 PM

Jed, didn't they try banning alcohol in the US once and didn't that bring about an increase in deaths by gun shots?

Jon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:55 PM

yes - and yes; gun shots, bombs, stabbing, widespread lawlessness.

that's my point. it wouldn't work.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Caitrin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 07:58 PM

I agree, Jon. Respectable hunters eat what they kill. I have serious problems with people who shoot animals for trophies.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:19 PM

Lizzie: Obviously, you've stepped in a wee bit of a pile here. I don't hunt because I don't need the meat. But In this country much as people don't like it, our constitution does specify the right(Not Privilige) to keep and bear arms and maintain a well regulated militia. (People tend to forget the well regulated part of that statement) Trying to ban anything in this country tends to become a sticky situation. I am not a real big fan of hand guns and I am no fan of assault weapons.(Those are not sport weapons and no-one I know who hunts would consider using an AK-47 to hunt deer). Our government need to strt tacking on some serious jail time and punitive fines when guns are used in a crime or are provided to minors. Again, welcome to our country and to Mudcat Cafe. I believe, in time, you will find both to be a positive experience. Best of luck, Neil

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Twitchy
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:26 PM

What you should really be more scared of are:

Iranians, Islamic Fundamentalist countries or North Koreans with nukes...

...or the U.S. become militarily involved in the Taiwan dispute with China.


There. Now you have something to be genuinely concerned about. Sleep well tonight.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Bud Savoie
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 09:38 PM

On another thread, a UK woman appeared from time to time in various incarnations with various aliases, bemoaning American patriotism, capitalism, lack of gun control, and what not. Now Lizzie, if you're the same gal, please don't open one of your endless cans of worms (that's American for Pandora's box). The two cities in the USA with the strongest anti-gun laws are Washington DC and New York; they also have the highest rate of violent crime. If you think that outlawing guns will solve the problem, then all Britain has to do is outlaw them in Northern Ireland and voila! everything is peaceful and problem solved.

If you are another alias of Red Barbie or Plane Jane, please cut out the anti-American stuff on this site; it doesn't belong here. If you are someone else, well, God help us! Two of you over there?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: katlaughing
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 09:45 PM

And, there are ALREADY SEVERAL GUN DEBATE THREADS! This one smells like a rat!

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JedMarum
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 10:11 PM

agreed kat and bud, hence my first comment; "this is a joke, right?"

...course I still got sucked in!

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,moonchild
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 10:12 PM

I JUST LOVE IT WHEN I SEE THREADS ... ASKING IF WE AMERICANS KNOW THAT WE ARE HATED; KNOW THAT WE ARE DISLIKED; KNOW THAT WE ARE THOUGHT OF AS FOOLS BY OTHER COUNTRIES ... THAT ALL AMERICANS ARE MURDERERS BECAUSE WE DON'T BAN FIREARMS ... THAT ALL AMERICANS ARE WARMONGERS BECAUSE WE HAVE AIDED OTHER COUNTRIES.

It is a privilege to post your thoughts on this website, which, in case you haven't figured it out is the "child" of an American, with it's homebase in an American City, in an American State, and funded by many American Dollars, as well as "dollars" from overseas.

So ... if you don't like Americans ... find a website that is maintained by Cuba or Russia or Iran or Iraq and see how far you get when you voice your opinions about them.

For those of you who wonder what it's like to be the Ugly American, let me tell you ...

I "lost" a fiance to the Vietnam conflict and have regretted not standing tall to be counted during that time, with the knowledge that it would have been my right as an American to do so.

I marched and demonstrated for the right of all women to make their own choices regarding their bodies, with the knowledge that it was my right as an American to do so.

I have "fought" everyday in my career for other women and men to be treated fairly and equally in whatever careers they choose ... and I continue to do so because it has made a difference.

I was "raised" with my parents telling me everyday that I could be whatever I wanted because of those basic rights outlined in the Constitution of the United States.

None of us live in Utopia, g-d forbid ... and human nature and genetics and environment will always be in evidence.

And ... before any of you tell me to calm down, I've been reading this dreck for several days and I am calm.

So, before you slam Americans, please clean up your own backyard ... moonchild

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 10:24 PM

Calm down Moonchild, I only see one post that maybe anti-American and if it is that rather than niaevity, it is surely a troll.

Jon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: thosp
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:02 PM

Lizzie ---- in that order?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: canoer
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:06 PM

Dear Lizzie,

I've got all the guns & rural hunting upbringing etc. abovementioned. And I still think you are perfectly right to be scared. We who are in this country, with its unique history, looking from the inside outward, think it's quite normal. But I have no doubt that the rest of the world, from outside looking in, has more than sufficient grounds for pause.

Quite a situation, ain't it?

--Larry C.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:45 PM

canoer, I too grew up in a household full of guns, with bullet holes in the venetian blinds to prove it. As a child was I scared? Yer damned right I was! And this was a household with a responsible "hunter" who taught his children to "respect" his weapons.

Did my brother and I bring our children up in a "household of guns" and in the same manner? No bloody way!

I too find the "culture of the gun" frightening Lizzie, despite the fact that some of its aspects are not foreign to me.

"I've seen the bullet and the damage done" with apologies to Neil Young.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Mbo
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:46 PM

Y'know, back in the 20's, animals in stockyards that ended up on our dinnerplates weren't killed with guns, but with sledgehammers.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Metchosin
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 11:51 PM

now they use an explosive bolt, Mbo, split the difference.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: canoer
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:02 AM

Give it up, Mbo, how much profit can there be in supplying sledgehammers to people who want weapons?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:11 AM

If you want to see how long responsible and rational people stay responsible and rational, put them through a divorce.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: DougR
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:13 AM

Let's ban sledgehammers!

DougR

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:17 AM

Lizzie, I understand your fear,I don't partake in it but I understand. What I fear are people like yourself screaming to take the guns away from honest lawabiding citizens. Are we to let only the criminals have guns? how would I protect my beloved wife and children from these same said criminals? I cannot even hope to convince you that there are BAD PEOPLE in this world, people that could do harm to you and the people you love if you had no-way to protect yourself.But the criminal element is the minority not the majority in this country, most of us are everyday hard workin' god fearin' types that would, only when the lives of our loved ones or our selves are threatend with violence respond in kind. I know of NO-ONE that would look forward to such a thing, except the ones that we protect our selves against.Stand up for what you believe in Lizzie, but don't try to force your beliefs on other people that's facism and that won't fly in this country.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JamesJim
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:17 AM

Does a water gun count? I have two of em'.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:18 AM

Just a bit of history, canoer...no suggestions on my part.

--Mbo (who read "The Jungle")

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: JedMarum
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:34 AM

it's time to chnage the constitution? because you don;t agree with it? well, have at it.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:37 AM

Honestly, I find it lamentable that scientists throughout all the ages of have found it necessary to invest so much time and money in two fields of research that completely contradict each other. One is the design, manufacture, distribution, and perfection of killing machines of all kinds, and if not machines, than chemicals, diseases, or something else designed to kill. The other field of research that is very popular is medicine, intended to help people survive their run-ins with killing machines. Killing anyone for any reason is wrong, except in the case of murderers and rapists who commit the worst two crimes of all--they should rot in hell as soon as possible. In any case, there is no reason why anyone should ever need to kill anyone in the first place.

On the other hand, America's Constitution guarantees at least some reasonably regulated right to bear arms. So to all those people who want unlimited right to arms, what exactly would a person use a cannon to hunt? Ducks? There are some weapons that normal people just don't need, although in this day and age people should have access to some protection.

Geez, I'm confusing myself. This topic kind of goes in circles with me because even though I am an ardent pacifist, I still believe in pretty much complete personal freedom, but also in the laws and restrictions that have created America. . . I think that may have just made it worse.

If anyone can decipher what exactly I meant by all that, feel free to tell me. . . I'm sure I had something worthwhile to say. . .

Peace--Bridget

"We are healthy only to the extent that our ideas are humane." /br/--Kurt Vonnegut in Breakfast of Champions

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:41 AM

Dearest Woodward, I'm sorry, truly sorry that that worst of all offences happened to you BUT THAT ANIMAL you called a law abiding citizen is anything but! as I'm sure you well know. Please don't twist my words into something less than a lie. Truely, -Biskit

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Amos
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:48 AM

Thanks for the act of courage, woodward, in writing the short but powerful post above. I know two other decent, honest, intelligent women who had similar experiences.

If things in my town ever got so bad that I honestly believed I needed a gun to protect my family, I would be more than happy to register it, to wait five days for a background check, or any other reasonable control. I would hate to think my choice had been written away from me back when I didn't need it.

This assumes there are times when you need one, at least in some places. Current history seems to bear this assumption out; it is very clear to me that psychosis in the individual reaches a point where words no longer penetrate. Your Mister Sterling obviously was not available for discussion.

Maybe you could argue that without their guns, such men would not commit their crimes. Maybe this is so. Any criminal who is already involved in law breaking could get one even in a highly regulated environment, though. So perhaps the nominal banishment of them would be something like Prohibition -- a well-intended act which then made hordes of people act like criminals.

A

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:52 AM

Bridget, your thinking wasn't confused, your thoughts came through loud and clear. I myself am a confirmed pacifist!!! I don't believe that there is a need for assault rifles or other stratiegic weaponry to kill deer or ducks, or anything else you intend to feed your family, however these people that are always screaming for gun control have lost sight of the fact that most violent crimes are not commited by folks who procured their guns by legal means. If you take the guns away from law abiding citizens then only the criminal element will have guns, and the police are limited in what they can do by law.....it just would not work.-Biskit-

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:54 AM

Why can't everyone just get along? Seriously.

Peace--Bridget

P.S. My parents made me quit my last job before I got the one I have now. Guess why. I got robbed at gunpoint. They never found the guys. So what, though? The thing is, scary stuff happens sometimes, but it doesn't mean that no one should have guns because a few people abuse the privelege. If the government put half as much effort into finding, prosecuting, and incarcerating these people (and sticking to the original sentencing), a lot of crimes wouldn't happen. Look at the statistics sometime on how many criminals are repeat offenders. Lock 'em up and throw away the key.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: SeanM
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:06 AM

(rant)

For the most current example of what Prohibition does, look at the effects of the "Drug War" on the USA and the world. As a result of this travesty, we have one of the largest (if not THE largest) prison populations as a percentage of population, entire city areas devastated by drug money fueled gang warfare, corruption up to the highest levels of government (Iran/Contra, anyone?), a Congress that has enacted several severely un-Constitutional laws (which are finally being repealed by the Supreme Court), and a mindset that values punishment at all costs over rehabilitation.

And that's just in this country.

The US has exerted pressure several times to create "Drug War" machinery in other countries, and has strongarmed other governments into shutting down treatment programs (Britain's heroin maintenance program being a prime example).

Where does this tie in to the subject of guns and Americans in general? I think that the duality of a government yelling "Drugs are illegal" combined with a vast majority of said government's citizens blatantly ignoring said law creates the same sort of lawless atmosphere that bred the organized crime of the '30s. With that comes the lessening of the value of human life, and the attendant social problems. You see the results amongst a small but increasingly frightening minority - - kids with guns, bloody shootouts, drive bys, etc. Thankfully, they are exactly that - a small minority of the population.

The Drug War isn't the entire problem. But god knows that it's a big part of it (IMHO).

(/rant)

M

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:14 AM

Personally I'm in favor of public flogging for the more minor crimes, and quick execution, for the violent offenders. You know in the middle eastern countries if a thief is caught they'll cut off a finger on his right hand ,if he's caught a second time, they cut off his right hand, this is significant because they have community food bowls, lotsa people eat out of the same bowl they eat with there right hand, they wipe there hineys with there left hand, and no-one will let you eat out bof the bowl they are eating out of with the hand you wipe your hiney with, erego the thief,..if he was stupid enough to be a repeat offender starves to death. VIOLA'! there are very few thiefs, and even fewer repeat offenders. Now I know that someone is gonna disagree with this, but chances are the person doing the disagreeing hasn't ever came home from vacation and all there possesions, have been turned upside down and what they couldn't sell or trade for what ever their drug of choice was, they broke.Oh GAWD! I'm off on a tangent again are'nt I -Biskit-

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:16 AM

I had several guns in my house when an ex-boyfriend came by and raped and beat me. They didn't do me any good. In all the years I was raised owning guns and target practising, I never used one in self-defense. I feel no need to own a gun anymore, haven't in a long time and my kids have only very vague memories of targetshooting.

I am one of "these" people who are hollering for not just laws, but also for parents to be more responsible for their children in what they let them be exposed to through medial, and for keeping violent criminals in jail for at lest a good portion of their term. Read a facsinating book on the travesty of the drug war by a guy who was undercover and a high mucky-muck. It is a sham and has filled our prisons in a PR move to convince everyone it is working.

There...I got sucked in, too.

kat

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Biskit
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:26 AM

yeah kat this is an easy one to get sucked into emotions run high on both sides of the coin and there is no correct and right all arond answer. to many variables... Peace, Love an' Joan Baez- Biskit-

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Sorcha
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:05 AM

Oh dear, a lot has happened here since my last visit. Woody and kat, I am crying for both of you and for all the people (female or not) in your position. Oh, this is going to be tough.
I would not hesitate to kill any scumbag who tried to rape me, IF I COULD. The qualifier is If I could.......he could take the gun away from me and use it on me, he could use a broken bottle, etc. But it wouldn't make me hate him any more/less........(crying here) Our daugher was digitally molested 6 yrs ago, and none of us have ever gotten over it, really, let alone her. But we HAVE to be civil to the bastard because he was never charged, let alone convicted, and Hubby is a cop........innocent until PROVEN guilty......
Oh crap, I don't know if I can do this or not. So many thoughts, so little brain cells.
In Iran now, it is legal for ANY man to kill ANY woman violating the Islamic law, and they don't have to use guns, they can use the swimming pools in the backyard. Just for not wearing a chador/veil.....
I guess it is time to come clean, We have 4 handguns in the house, and 5 hunting rifles, and 4 antique rifles. Hubby is a cop and carries one all day every day. Do I feel safe? NO, I do not.And all the guns are unloaded, and I do Not keep one by the bed.
Last year, only 2 mos after my mother died, our son was arrested for Aggravated Assault; he shot his own car while trying to defend himself from an assault by 5 other (ethinic) people. He is now a felon, they are not even minor offenders.
Oh golly I can't do this now, this is my next thing to work through. But I guess the bottom line is, that Americans are so BLOODY minded, that they won't let ANYONE tell them what to do, whether it is right or wrong....will try to make sense of this tomorrow. Sorry my friends, just too difficult right now.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 04:14 AM

Whoa!

Tony Martin used a gun to defend himself (I believe) and has now been convicted of murder.

The problem is one of the perceived freedom to coerce. It starts with the ability ot coerce through words and social pressure. THat creates the need to "coerce" right back. THen it moves on to economic pressure. You'll never work in this town again buddy. THen it moves on to physical violence - touch my wife and I'll kick you to pieces - stop telling me what to do or my frineds and I will kick you to pieces. THen it moves on to weapons.

If you are not right in what you are doing then it should not be acceptable to coerce. But our whole society is built on the opposite premise and justifies resonable force in self defence.

Like at Columbine High, the greater (yes I mean it - ask enyone who has been systematically bullied) crime - of destroying a person's self respect because they are not in the group with power - is so often one step back.

Power destroys - and creates the need for a countervailing power.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Simon in Hampshire, England
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:17 AM

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:33 AM

I never cease to be amazed at the ability of Americans to justify what in most other Western countries would be considered insanity. Just look at some of the inane excuses...we need to hunt....supermarkets sell meat... we need to conserve nature....by shooting at it...we need to control bullies in schools...by shooting them....we need to defend our property...by shooting people...we need to defend ourselves against the government.....by shooting officers of the law.....we need to teach kids to be responsible about guns...by teaching them to use lethal weapons thereby showing them that this is a toy...fun at the practising range.... Oh, give us a break and grow up,,,,This is not 1776 or 1850 or 1920...this is the 21st century, the age of the cowboy is over. There are few things about which I have such strong feeling but I have good reason to see this gun arguement as just pkain stupid. The only thing that is right about these arguements is when people say, Guns are ok in America because America is different...sadly, this is all too true. I think America is a great place..but this annal fascination with deadly toys is absurd.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 08:38 AM

Wasn't it a David Bowie song that says "I'm afraid of Americans, I'm afraid of Americans, I'm afraid I can't help it..."

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: folk1234
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:10 AM

Ya' know, I'm truly quite proud of my Mudcat friends. Despite the very controversial topic, and some horrible personal accounts, this has been a very civil discussion.
It proves a point I have often made - Once you sing with a person, you have a very special life-long bond. We have not yet all sung together physically, but we certainly have done so vicariously and virtually.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Mbo_at_ECU
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:31 AM

Too right, folk1234. And it's that bond of singing and just being with those special people that eases our pains, lets us momentarily forget our differences, opinions, and arguments about such topics as gun control--we enter a world where none of those seem of great importance to us at that moment. I love all you folks, and would gladly be a human shield for any one of you.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Simon in Hampshire, England
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:56 AM

Amazing how this topic can rouse such ire. Over on the Fairport Convention list recently this also came up. The main lesson from that is that there is a huge gulf between the US and the UK on the okay-ness of owning guns.

Now, being English, perhaps I underestimate just how handy a gun is. There must be no end to the uses other than shooting people, eh? As Little Bill Daggett says in 'Unforgiven', they're for "snakes an' such". But I'm not exactly convinced by the 'hunting helps preserve the countryside' argument – if a nation is serious about preserving the countryside, it leaves it bloody well alone, not just bloody.

Speaking personally, I'm afraid of ANYONE with a gun, be they American, Iraqi or Martian, and I doubt that owning one myself would make me feel a whole lot better. There is a proportion of nutters in any population. If guns are available, that means ARMED nutters.

If I may paraphrase from memory the late great Bill Hicks (stats are for demonstration purposes only – proportions, not actual figures): "Here in the United States – and I think you know how we feel about guns – whoo, I'm getting a stiffy just thinking about it – we had ten thousand deaths by firearms last year. In Britain, where not even the policemen carry guns – twenty. Ten thousand… twenty. Now I don't want you to get the wrong idea. There is no connection – none – and you'd be a fool and a communist to think otherwise – between having a gun, and shooting someone with it, and NOT having a gun, and NOT shooting someone."

Oh and by the way Bud: "If you think that outlawing guns will solve the problem, then all Britain has to do is outlaw them in Northern Ireland and voila! everything is peaceful and problem solved", eh? Kindly refrain from talking of a subject about which you evidently know nothing. The only people who have guns in Northern Ireland are the paramilitaries and the police/army. Guns ARE outlawed, and, oddly enough, who does the shooting? People WITH guns, or those without? Surprise surprise, people with guns shoot people! And there are (were?) active efforts to get rid of the guns, not just let everyone keep them in case they come in handy, "oh well, we've got 'em now, may as well join the Americans".

Yes, if people want to hurt others, they'll do it anyway. Bridget says: "it doesn't mean that no one should have guns because a few people abuse the privelege." Yes it does, because nothing else (except maybe swords) is specifically designed to harm other people as easily, efficiently, and as many at a time, as possible. What you do is very carefully CONTROL those that are allowed for wildfowl, targets etc. Mistakes will be made, but rather fewer than in the present US free-for-all. But it's this simple – if you're not into targets or hunting, if you don't want to / think you might 'need' to / intend to shoot someone, ordinary folk don't need a gun.

And if anyone disagrees I'll shoot 'em.

Simon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Caitrin
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:02 AM

Aldus, you make a serious error in referring to guns as toys. They are not. To consider them anything other than potentially deadly weaponry is to invite injury or death. Guns have always been treated seriously in my house, and I never got the impression that guns were toys, even when I was twelve.
Another point...no one here has suggested that "bullies at school" should be handled by shooting. If you think that's what people are saying, you're right, that is insane.
To be perfectly honest, Americans in general simply don't like the idea of having personal freedom curtailed. We don't tend to see why the rights of people who obey the rules should be abridged because of people who do not obey.
Personally, if there were a way to legislate handguns away, I think it's a great idea. There is a place where I believe personal freedom takes a back seat. Unfortunately, it's not possible. You can take guns away from law-abiding people, but not from criminals. Violent crime will continue, regardless of gun control laws.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:26 AM

I owned a .357 magnum but I sold it in order to buy my mandolin. And I will defend to the death my God given right to own and use my mandolin.

{ Does anyone know where I can get a good mandolin rack for my pickup ? }

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,ayank
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:54 AM

There is also this thing called the Royal Ulster Consta-someting or other, not exactly against the right to their guns, or rubber bullets, or tear gas, or any number of lethal weopons. I think the IRA should give up their guns when the RUC gives up theirs. As for America, we were a frontier society not to long ago, we industrialized relatively over night, and the amount and number of guns as well as the attitude towards guns is simply a hold over from that period. Until recently, most americans were farmers and guns were a logical tool on a farm. We also like our drugs, and guns are a logical tool for drug running as well. Thirdly, blacks who have been totally denied access to the mainstream society have found gang membership a logical alternative, and I can't say as I blame them. What you Brits did to Catholics, we do to blacks and other minoritys, and I don't blame them for not waiting for the elite to become enlightned and take matters into their own hands. The word is a very dangerous place, and their was this thing called the British Empire that is most culpable for it, so if you don't like the way things our, you have your nation/state to blame.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Midchuck
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:00 PM

I know I shouldn't do this. I know I'm just going to make things worse. But the temptation is just too much.

Peter. (Who owns several handguns, loves to shoot them, and has never in his life knowingly fired a gun at a living thing.)

Something to Shoot
Christopher David Wall
Rhythm Wrangler Music, BMI
From his recording, Honky Tonk Heart:

I was born and raised 'way out west
And the thing that I like about living here best
Ain't the mountains, the praries, the hats or the boots;
It's having plenty of guns, and something to shoot

We got shotguns and six-guns, we got a shitload of guns,
And shooting varmints and critters is a shitload of fun.
I don't care 'bout the money, don't care 'bout the loot.
Give me Jack Daniels whiskey, and something to shoot.

There's a whole herd of elk, right there in a line,
And it's a pain in the ass to shoot 'em one at a time.
I'm 'way below quota, I've had a bad day;
Boy, what I wouldn't give for just one hand grenade!

I don't care about the future, don't care 'bout the past;
As long as I've got me some creatures to blast.
We got deer, we got elk, we got old owls that hoot;
And when I've killed 'em all, there'll be yankees to shoot.

Now don't you tailgate me son, get off my back
I got a thirty-ought-six right here in the rack.
And this ain't New Jersey, we don't honk, we don't yell
But you just touch that bumper, and I'll blow you to Hell.

(Repeat first verse)

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:01 PM

I'm sorry Wes, but I have turned you in to Bureau of Funshit Foolery (BOFF) for posession of a lethal instrument without permit. As I'm sure you are aware, although the Bill of Rights grants each citizen to the inalienable right to own a howitzer, mandolins and their ilk are strictly regulated and our founding fathers were wise not to include them in the constitution.

Each year, thousands of US citizens are attacked by mando playing fools and the assault on their sensibilities has taken a toll and forced many to purchase a Glock. Their cousin, the tiple, a bastard offspring of the guitar and mandolin has already been used by the CIA for the overthrow of several third world regimes and indeed speculation runs high that CIA/Mafia Tiplers were in Dallas in 1963, although the Warren Commission dismissed the notion in favor of the "Single String Theory."

Best advice I can give you is to give yourself up now before BOFF agents establish a perimeter around your domicile, shoot your dog, kid, and wife, with legal firearms and confiscate your mandolin.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Hollowfox
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:17 PM

Lizzie, gun debates aside, I think the important part of your posting is the fear. It's a brave thing to admit a fear in public, especially in such an open forum as this. Please don't fall prey to stereotypes. The gun-toting American is no more typical of this country than the tweed-wearing man with the monocle who says, "Pip, pip." all the time is typical of yours. Any country can be typified by a wide spectrum of "typical" stereotypes, from the best to the worst. Come back and visit soon. You'll find that this fringe element (folk) will show, IMHO, a truer picture of the USA than television. Love, Mary.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:23 PM

Hi,

Had to sort out some "work permit" details and had to FAX the Canadian "Application for an Employment Authorisation" form to a US agency for a British artist. They were somewhat irate by the bureaucracy (which I've experienced the other way round - so no side should complain). The artist was somewhat amused by question 19f:-

In periods of either peace or war, have you ever been involved in the commision of a war crime or crime against humanity, such as: willful killing, torture, attacks upon, enslavement, starvation or other inhumane acts commited against civilians or prisoners of war; or deportation of civilians?

He wasn't sure whether they were talking about his guitar playing!

Wasn't sure whether to post it here or the US/Canadian thread, but here it is.

Cheers Rana

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:26 PM

It's very true that I sold a gun to get a mandolin { often junkies will sell possesions to fuel their habits } but I neglected to get the proper permits. If you make mandolins illegal only outlaws will have mandolins. Because of your advice I will now endevor to obtain a "right to carry a concealed mandolin".

To prove to you that I'm not a radical let me assure you that I consider a tiple to be overkill. No law abiding musician needs any more than 8 strings on an instrument. Twelve string guitar season excluded of course. And I do support a 5 day waiting period and stringent background checks for anyone who wants to purchase a tiple. Of course the desire to obtain one means that you will flunk the background check. Lets round up all the tiple players before it's too late.

I should probablly contact you off line to tell you about the rumors concerning the grassy knoll tiplers. I wouldn't want the truth to get around. The truth is out there.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:34 PM

I'm glad you have seen fit to do the right thing Wesley!

The Grassy Knoll Tiplers........As time passes we are confronted with more and more stories such as yours and the light they shed on that day in Dallas can no longer be swept aside. Oliver Stone has a "Director's Cut" of "JFK" due to be released in July which includes the previously unseen portions of his film which includes the GNT group and their actions before and after that tragic day.

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Aldus
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:36 PM

Dear Guest ayank; your knowledge of history is rudimentary at best and should not be used in a debate where facts are respected. Canada also was a frontier country..much more recently I might add, than America...they do not share this gun toting philosophy. Bad history cannot justify blind stupidity.......guns are designed to kill things and they do........in large numbers. It is evident that the country with the highest murder rate also has the highest number of Guns...that is not an accident. As for the curtailment of personal freedom...it happens all the time in democratic countries..it is called the rule of law.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:42 PM

Why, yes, I too am afraid of Americans with guns. That is precisely why there is a loaded pistol under the sofa, in case some idiot decides to come into my house without permission with the express intent of doing me harm.

What the media doesn't tell you is that thousands of crimes are prevented by honest citizens with guns, or other weapons, or household items they used as weapons. Criminals don't really want to get hurt either. What they also don't tell you is that crime is up in Australia since people turned in their guns, because now the criminals (who still have guns) know that people have little way of defending themselves.

I listen to international stations over the Net and even in countries where guns are banned, they still have murders and suicides and all manner of terrible things, including gun violence. Too many people have the mistaken idea that if guns went away, all crimes would go away too. WRONG! If I remember right, Cain didn't slew Abel with a firearm.

Remember what happened to Germany in WWII? Hitler took away everyone's guns. You all know what happened after that. Beware a government that doesn't want you to defend yourself. Beware, beware, beware... I can't say it enough. History has shown that whenever a government wants to subjugate people, they take away their defense.

I have a right to defend myself against thugs. That's why I have a gun.

If you don't want to have one, that is your choice. But don't try to take away my choice.

Regards ------------------ Kim

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:45 PM

Spaw - I live in Ft Worth just a few miles west of Dallas { it's too hot there } . I can assure you that even though Oliver Stone exposes the Grassy Knoll Tiplers he was only allowed to film those things that the GKT's allowed him to see. Remember -"The partial truth is no truth at all. "

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,aldus
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 12:59 PM

We are back at the bad history again. This struggle to justify the gun society is as frightening as the guns themselves. If you wish to use statistics , use this one...America has the highest murder rate in the western world...it has the highest level of gun ownership..is there a realionship between these things ? There are many countries where law abiding citizens don't feel the need to be armed..in fact, In Britian and in parts of Canada, the police are not armed....yet they have FAR lower murder rates. Why ?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: harpgirl
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:03 PM

The last time I looked, democracy required dissent. Maybe we could just give everyone who wanted to own a firearm a means test. Every month they would have to prove their need to have a firearm by proving that they needed to own a firearm to eat, to protect themselves from the really dangerous people in the United States, to maintain their valuable collections, or whatever other reasons they had. Then if the proof wasn't good enough we could take their firearms away and make them begin the means test all over again the next month.
Oh wait, we do that for women with children trying to survive on welfare. Oh well, if it's good enough for them it's certainly good enough for the firearms enthusiasts!
And while I am saying what I really think I believe we should add an amendment called the "ERA". It's my right to believe what I want to. This is America.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:13 PM

Wesley it is important that you come forward with whatever you know regarding the GKT. It is the right of everyone to know exactly what went on that day. As an American and a Texan you know as well as any that the people of this country have been seriously duped and your knowledge could result in the truth finally coming out, not to mention a lucrative book and movie deal.

(and folks, give it a break........This subject has been hashed over ad infinitum and I have yet to see anyone suddenly change their mind in either direction. As folk1234 said, its great we can discuss this without rancor, but things are getting close to an uncomfortable edge here and regardless of your personal feelings on the matter, it is most important that we can still "sing" together)

Spaw

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Caitrin
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:15 PM

Right on, harpgirl. I may disagree with people, but I believe they're fully entitled to their opinions. (Of course, they're wrong, but I'm willing to let them be wrong. Note presence of tongue in cheek.)
Ok, Aldus, let's say we take your word for it that the murder rates are lower. Has gun-related crime stopped? Is it appreciably different from before guns were banned?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:15 PM

Obviously, guns are always going to be a big debate, but I'm going to add another 2 cents to the conversation here.

I know I trivialized being robbed at gunpoint, but here's a better account of it. I used to work at the local Subway restaurant, and I had been closing the store at 10 or 11 at night by myself for close to 6 months, just as other people had for 13 YEARS with no incedent. Two guys came in and pulled a gun on me, tied me up with some tape, and proceeded to take the $134 that was in the register. It only took about 1 minute, and they were gone. By this time, I was hyperventilating and pretty much just freaking out, but I managed to call 911. Now, over 2 months later I haven't even HEARD from the police in 6 weeks, and those 2 men are still on the loose. I could have been killed!

In any case though, what's the point of dwelling on it? Just because I was a victim of someone holding a gun doesn't mean that I think my grandfather should give up his gun collection, which incedentally, I have never touched or wanted to touch, for all that they have always been in easy reach. I myself have a rifle and a handgun that I only vaguely know how to use, and have no desire to use. I have grown up in a family where guns are always around, and several of my family members collect weapons.

My philosophy is that the way to stop violence is to punish the perpetrators. If you take away guns, what about all the other things people could use as weapons? Knives, forks, pencils, clubs, cars, sticks, rocks, bare hands? If people want to harm someone, they will use anything. The problem isn't that weapons are available, the problem is that they are available to the wrong people--people who are out on the streets when they should be behind bars.

Peace--Keli

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:21 PM

Right on, Harpgirl and here's to well-aimed can of spray paint for non-lethal self-defense!

Yer right, Spaw, sorry I did get sucked in, again!

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: kendall
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:30 PM

Canada is not free of gun violence in the past. The government wiped out the Metis at a place called Batoche in Saskatchawan in 1885. There is a song ..and never mind their Gatlin guns, if we lose this time, we've lost forever..its by Bill Gallager called, The Last Battle. It's on Gordon Boks new cd, In The Kind Land.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Ely
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:34 PM

Now I'm going to put my foot in my mouth.

Anyone who grew up in a house with bullet holes in the venetian blinds was not the child of a responsible gun owner, and should have been scared.

I know plenty of people who do not own guns, would not own guns, and are in favor of gun-control laws (and I'm from Texas). Unfortunately, it's the really nasty stuff that gets all the attention.

My brother is a Civil War reenactor and owns a rifle and a handgun, so I don't feel that I can fairly criticize those who see gun ownership as a right, even if I suspect that our reasons for owning guns vary a lot. Frankly, even if we did own these guns for protection, I would not be willing to bank on them to protect me in the panicky heat of the moment.

I will never be comfortable with the "Constitutional protection" afforded gun ownership. Individuals carrying weapons for personal protection are not a well-regulated militia. Most Americans are no longer at risk of attack by wild animals or Native Americans (not that the Native Americans weren't amply justified). Most Americans don't _need_ to hunt for food, either.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:41 PM

Sorry Spaw - No can do. They've won for now. The GKT have already cost me too much - including the love of a good dame. As I said before - Dallas is too hot for me now. But someday - somehow - they'll slip up. And I'll be ready for them. Until then I'll keep my mandolin in tune and wait.

{ Really - I have to wonder why people post to these types of threads. Usually people are on one side of the issue or the other and there is nothing any of us can say that will change their minds. There is nothing any of us can say about gun control, abortion, or Elian that will make us slap our foreheads and say "Oh my God - I was wrong - and they were right all along. I've been such a fool . Thank God I checked into the Mudcat to get straightened out on this issue". To me it's a big waste of time. But that's just my opinion. Heard any good CD's lately?? I'm looking for something new that features the Irish Bouzouki}

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Paula
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:43 PM

Lizzie, I'm from Glasgow. I lived in England for three years and now I live in Ohio, America. Let me tell you that Americans are the most generous, kind, well mannered people I have ever known and,in my seven years here, I haven't met many that I don't like.

Of course there's problems with guns, as there is all over the place, Britain included. However, I'm more afraid of being chibbed with a knife in Glasgow than I am of being shot by a gun in America.

Maybe you have to visit the country before you decide you're afraid of Americans. Besides, if it wasn't for the courage and generousity of Americans saving our cans during the war, we'd all be German!!! Have gratitude.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Mbo
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:45 PM

Wes, can you play some George Winston on yer mandolin for us? That would be COOL!!!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:46 PM

Everyone has a right to think what they want, and to express themselves, regardless where they stand on any particular issue. I wish people would stop with the "shut up, you idiot" messages.

I've spent a lot of time with guns -- eight years in the military, expert marksman with an M-16, 45-caliber and 9-mm automatic pistols, extensively trained in law enforcement procedures, riot control, etc. My dirty little secret is that I LOVE guns -- I love the way they feel when I shoot them, I love the way all the moving parts work together, and most especially I love the way a gun makes me feel like a tough guy. I am not alone, and anyone who is experienced with a gun (particularly a handgun) and is honest will tell you the same thing. Start carrying a gun, and right away you feel like John Wayne. That's why we need to get rid of most of them, and tightly control the rest. Gun control may be difficult, but if we want to stop the insane escalation of violence, we have to either tightly control the guns or tightly control the people -- all 300 million of them in this country, for starters.

The whole "assault weapon" thing is basically a red herring; only a very small percentage of the gun deaths in this country are caused by assault weapons. The Second Amendment argument is bogus -- the Supreme Court has consistently and correctly ruled that the Second Amendment protects local militias from having their weapons taken away, but does not confer an automatic, inalienable right to individual gun ownership. Besides, the Second Amendment refers to "the right to keep and bear arms" -- which is pretty broad, and includes nuclear bombs, nerve gas, and virtually any other evil device known to man (or as yet unknown). Anybody care to argue that the Constitution says we all are allowed to stockpile nuclear weapons? Anyone want to continue living in this country if the answer to that question is yes?

We in America not only HAVE the most guns, we also MAKE and EXPORT the most guns. Given the economic interests involved, banning them wouldn't be easy. And no, it isn't a stand-alone remedy, and it wouldn't prevent every crime. But it would substantially reduce the level of violence in this country, and for that reason it's worth doing. Either that, or let's learn to live with the high level of violent crime that is such an unfortunate byproduct of our American society and culture

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 01:58 PM

Didn't want to say anything, but good lord you just can't help it sometimes. I neither condone nor condemn owning guns. Would I like Lizzie (and my lovely family, friends and self) to be free of the fear of guns? You betcha! But that just ain't in the cards.

I believe someone used the words "Pandora's Box" before in this thread. The box is open - the guns are out there. Outlawing them doesn't make them go away. Can we control them better? The debate rages on and, once again, it runs in all the wrong directions. Humans need to learn to control themselves (and I'm not talking about mudcatters here, the self-control in this group is admirable). What if nobody felt the need to shoot anything? Or oppress anything? Or marginalize anything? We, as a species, will do and allow the most outrageous acts, justifying all the way. . .

It's religion, and economics, and nationalism, and all kinds of fear-driven weirdness that scares me - not Americans with guns (and I walk among them). It's not insame to own a gun; it's not insane to oppose gun ownership. And it's absolutely necessary to continue to talk about all of this uncomfortable stuff.

How do you stop people from killing each other? Refuse to do it yourself. Refuse to brutalize another human, physically, mentally, psychologically . . . Figure out what is really important to you and refuse to deny it to someone else. Itmay not seem like much, but it's a start.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:05 PM

I still can't understand the thrill some people get out of shooting guns. I have used a 45 automatic, a 38 special and a couple of rifles but I found that once I got over the initial thrill of hanling a gun and finding out that I could hit things, the whole thing got very boring - each to their own I suppose...

Looking back, what we did was stupid as well. A group of us met in a pub before going off to an old slate quarry that was used as a shooting range with the person who owned the guns. There were about 8 of us and I for one would have drunk about 6 pints before going there...

Jon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Rana
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:23 PM

From the BBC Online webpage, re. Farmer found guilty of murder in "defending his property":

------ Jailing Martin, Mr Justice Owen told him householders could use reasonable force to defend themselves from burglary.

But Martin's actions in tackling the burglars were given support after the verdict by chocolate heir Sir Peter Cadbury, who told the BBC it was legitimate for a householder to use force against an intruder "if the householder himself feels threatened".

He told BBC Two's Newsnight programme on Wednesday: "A lot of my friends sleep with loaded guns under their beds and I don't think they can be criticised for doing that, because if they ring the police, it will be 35 to 40 minutes before a car gets there.

"I have had a loaded gun by my bed for the last 40 years, but in July last year, when a burglar took every piece of jewellery my wife had and my wallet and a lot else, he took the gun too." ----

This could have back-fired on Sir Cadbury (pun not intended) had he or his family had been in the room. Which is one danger in protecting yourself.

Can't discuss the above (Tony Martin) case since don't know any of the details, though it would appear that the judge and jury felt excessive force was used in the act of "self-defence" -

Hope I haven't opened another can of worms, but having weapons can often bring more harm to the victim.

Rana

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: SINSULL
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:24 PM

Yeah Jon. I feel the same about people with fireworks. Lots of flash; lots of noise; hardly worth losing a finger over.

But why fear only Americans with guns?

I live in NYC and am far more afraid of Americans with cars.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Homeless
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:45 PM

I'm willing to throw a bit more fuel on the fire.

I've owned, over my life, a shotgun, a rifle, and a handgun. I only used them for target shooting, don't see any compelling need for any of them, and no longer own any of them.

I, personally, see a strong need to hunt my own meat - that supplied by the supermarkets is pumped full of antibiotics, hormones, and other nasties I don't care to have in my body. However, I don't believe I need a gun to hunt - a bow or crossbow does just fine, thank you.

As stated above, the feeling of being invincible once you start carrying a gun is a dangerous thing. If someone were to pull a pistol on me, and I pull mine out too, we shoot each other, does that stop the violent crime? And would the cockiness that goes along with knowing you can "defend yourself" possibly prompt a confrontation that might not have otherwise occured?

It seems that everyone wants to regulate guns in one way or another, but no one seems to hit what I think is the strongest point - a background check doesn't tell you if the purchaser knows how to safely handle a gun. The venetian blind is a case in point. The people who scare me are the ones who own a gun(s) but haven't the slightest bit of knowledge of them. I won't be around those people - I've had too many guns accidentally pointed in my direction.

I spend a lot of time around the ER at our local hospital. I saw many more deaths from car accidents than I ever did from gunshots. To say that a gun is dangerous is ridiculous - a gun is only a tool, like cars, knives, computers, fire, sledgehammers. It is irresponsible people who are dangerous. And not just with guns, e.g. people who drive after they've had even 1 drink. You can harm (kill) people with any of the above named implements, but only cars are regulated in any way.

If you want to quote statistics on murder and try to compare them with stats on guns, you should at least use the figures on murder by gunshot.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:53 PM

Homeless,

"To say that a gun is dangerous is ridiculous" hmmmm

If an implement specifically designed to kill mammals isn't dangerous, it must have been very badly designed...

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 02:56 PM

A background check also doesn't tell you much about a person's stability or rationality -- it really just tells you if they got caught doing something bad in the past, not if they are likely to do something bad in the future.

I agree with people who say that irresponsible people are the danger, and that if there were no irresponsible, irrational or violent people, guns wouldn't be a problem. Unfortunately, the world is, and has always been, chock full of irresponsible, irrational and violent people -- the only difference is that now they have ready access to technology that allows them to present a much greater danger to the rest of us than they used to. If somebody knows how to get rid of all the irresponsible, irrational and violent people, I wish he would enlighten the rest of us. Myself, I don't think it can be done -- so I'd suggest that we go with the second-best option, and get rid of the guns.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Peg
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:01 PM

Guns Don't Kill People.
Schoolchildren With Guns Kill People.

Peg (who grew up eating plenty of venison, some killed with guns, some with bows and arrows, and who thinks all meat eaters should take responsiblity for acknowledging the sacrifice of the life of their dinner, and who almost had a heart attack the first time she ever killed an animal with a gun--age 12 or so--and who would never have one in the house, and who has the utmost respect for the way her father taught his children that guns are not toys and who punished any of us who even pointed a toy gun at anyone, even in fun, and who thinks people who point to the arcane, ridiculously out-of-date Second Amendment designed to arm civilians with muskets during wartime two hundred damn years ago as some proof that people have the right to buy guns and keep them in their homes for any stray child or psychopath or disgruntled husband or wife to pick up and blow someone away by accident or in an unthought-through moment...)

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Homeless
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:07 PM

anonymous Guest - I maintain that a gun, in itself, is not dangerous. I've had a variety of guns, and in the years I had them not one ever killed any mammal of any type. I also own knives (including ones for the dinner table) and have killed animals with them.
Q. Which one was more dangerous?
A. Neither - it was my action that was the danger to the animal - the implement didn't matter in the end.

A gun is no more dangerous than a knife, rope, car, axe, table saw, drill, sledgehammer, clenched fist... Should I go on?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Peg
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:07 PM

...are idiots.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:11 PM

Gun ownership in America is not a black and white issue. Most Americans have little sympathy for either the NRA and their "only an ARMED man is truly free" bullshit on one side, and the gun-control extremists and their "All guns are EVIL" crap on the other. We know better.

But progress needs to be made. Gunshow loopholes need to be closed. Gun crimes need to be vigorously prosecuted. Many types of weapons currently legal need to be banned. I don't buy the "Guns are necessary to fend off an oppressive government" argument, nor the "an armed citizenry is the greatest deterrent to crime" argument, but I know that many intelligent folks do believe these things. Progress in the control of guns here, and throughout the world, will be made when individuals sit down and hammer out difficult compromises with respect to each other's points of view in a rational manner. Statements such as "I am afraid of Americans and their guns" do not advance this cause. I believe in your earnestness, lizzie, but I do think your statement reveals an ignorance of the status quo re guns, and does not move it toward an improvement in the situation.

LEJ

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Peg
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:14 PM

Homeless; I respectfully diagree. Guns are a problem precisely because they are implements of mass destruction. Semi-automatic weapons shoot lots of bullets in short periods of time. I could kill a lot more people a lot faster with a gun than I could with a club, or a couple rolls of quarters in a sock. Good ole Dylan and Eric could not have blown away all those kids that quickly with knives, rocks or aarsenic...and a killer with anything other than a gun tends to be a lot easier to disarm than someone with, oh, a 2x4, or a hypo full or potassium...
I myself would be likely to try and disarm a psycho with a knife, risking injury to myself, if it meant helping someone else. There is a chance I would be hurt or killed, but the risk is worth it. If the psycho has a gun, I could probably not even get close enough to him to do anything...he could kill me from a few feet or yards away. Knives are not projectiles; bullets are. I really do not see how you can argue that guns are on the same level of lethal effect as any other weapon.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:15 PM

I like to shoot, too. That doesn't meant I WANT to shoot anyone ---- but I would not hesitate in defending myself.

The weapons are not the problem. Someone has to make a conscious choice to use a weapon; the weapon doesn't just jump into their hands of its own accord. What we have to do, as good people, is stand up against evil - against those circumstances which cause someone to believe they need to use a weapon against someone else.

Are guns dangerous? Well, even a pair of scissors is dangerous in the wrong hands. We're going to ban scissors now? I think not.

There are people in the United States who still have to hunt for their food. They live in places like Alaska, Montana, Wyoming... out in the middle of nowhere, where they can't just bop down to the market for a snack.

I think you will find that in the US, the greatest pockets of crime are concentrated in very highly populated areas... New York City (although theirs has gone down lately), Washington DC (where handguns are illegal), Los Angeles... The crime rates in these concentrated areas cause the average for the whole US to go up. More people, more crime. Put two rats in a cage together and see if they don't get along okay; crowd a hundred of them in there and watch what happens.

I visited Cody, Wyoming several years ago, and read about the recent crime wave in their local paper: one bank window broken out, and a backhoe stolen from a construction site. Big contrast to what happens in the big city.

Like I said, if you don't want a gun, don't own one, but don't even think about telling me I can't. I do wholeheartedly agree, though, that guns need to be taken away from criminals. And when that happens, I'll think about melting mine down. But you don't see the President asking the Secret Service to disarm, do you?

Regards ------------- Kim

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:32 PM

Peg, you are right about the ability of guns, especially semi-auto and automatic weapons, to wreak wholesale slaughter in seconds. This is why the "if you outlaw guns, you must outlaw knives and cars" argument is such a specious one. By extension, grenade launchers don't kill people, people with grenade launchers kill people. If you out law grenade launchers, you must also outlaw cans of baked beans since you could kill someone by hitting him on the head with a can of Campbell's. Dumb.

Let's instead recognize that a flintlock musket is not a 12 ga shotgun is not an AK 47, and make the restrictions that common sense would advise us to make.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Melodeon
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:33 PM

I am terrified of guns, I am also terrified of the people who carry them, whatever Nationality they happen to be. I would not however presume to criticise another culture, particularly as that other culture happens to be my host on this forum. However, over here in the UK it is difficult for some of us to understand the whole thing about the right to own a gun, probably because it is so alien to our own culture. Having read with interest all of the above threads I can only say that I am glad that I do not have to decide whether or not to own a gun ( hand guns are illegal over here because of the Dunblane tragedy) because I can understand the logic that if everyone else has got one then I had better have one too, is that not what brought us the proliferation of atomic weapons in the world. I can only hope that more Americans ( and others) decide to be responsible gun owners like the ones that have written here so that there are no more senseless killings of innocent people in schools, supermarkets, retirement homes etc. In the meantime look after yourselves.

Viv

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Homeless
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:34 PM

Peg - I can see we are talking about two different things. You say, "Semi-automatic weapons shoot lots of bullets in short periods of time," which I agree with. But, it only takes one bullet to kill someone in the same way that it only take one knife slash. I'll agree that if someone wants to do it they can kill more people faster with a gun than with a knife/axe/what-have-you. But being able to do more, faster, does not make it dangerous.

No disrespect intended, but I don't see the logic in "Guns are a problem precisely because they are implements of mass destruction". Bulldozers, wrecking balls, jackhammers all fit that criteria but aren't a problem. And I thought the problem was usually one person being killed at a time, not simultaneous mass murder? Other than the military, the press I usually see about mass murders involves bombs, not guns.

I don't agree that "a killer with anything other than a gun tends to be a lot easier to disarm." Again, it depends on the wielders knowledge of the weapon and state of mind of both attacker and defender. Outside of movies (where all fights are choreographed), do you have much firsthand experience witnessing disarming scenarios?

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:36 PM

One thing that bothers with guns is how quickly they can be used. I have seen talk here of psyhcopaths and even in the UK, we have wittnesed what destruction somebody going beserk with a gun can cause but what about normal stable people? I'm sure that most of us, if we are honest have had at least one point in our lives where we have been driven into an ablolute rage what the hell happens if there is a gun to hand at that point?

The self defense bit also bothers me slightly. How many people have fired guns in unneccesary panic? I used to walk home at night along dark lonely roads and paths and I used to get nervous at times and considered carrying a knife for protection. I decided against it not for any legal reasons but because I was more scared of the thoughts of what I may do if somebody startled me on my way home than I was about the thoughts of being attacked.

Another thought on defending things: I am not defending burglars but if a burglar suspects that owner of the place he is goining to rob has a gun, rather than preventing the crime, doesn't it simply increase the chances of him carrying a gun to defend himself?

Jon

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Homeless
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:38 PM

After re-reading my last post, I can see that I'm subconciously trying to coerce someone to change their stance on an issue. Since that is against my values, I will bow out of this thread.

I do hope however that I've given people on both sides some food for thought.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 03:48 PM

A little honesty on both sides might go a long way. Frankly it is not sensible to point to the need to hunt for food as a justification for possession of firearms. Mankind evolved out of the "hunter-gatherer" stage many centuries ago. But equally the "ban guns and gun-related crime will stop" argument is not on the level.

It is trite that one man's freedom may impinge on another's. THe central issue here is the legitimacy of the resort to force - whether with a gun, or another weapon, or even the inherent power of a majority to oppress a minority in a democracy. I suggest that the measure to apply is the risk of wrong you create.

Take away firearms and you leave the physically strong (or the mob-handed) as empowered, or almost as empowered, as the armed used to be. But how much ahve you harmed the disempowered?

Think before you kneejerk.

Think about why the kids at Columbine might have felt oppressed. THink about the fact that the effectiv e power rstructure there left them hopeless. THink about what would have happened to TOny Martin if he tried to stop 3 burglars with 114 (yes114) convictions between them without a gun.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Peg
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 04:10 PM

Homeless; you can't coerce someone if your arguments make no sense.
you wrote: "I'll agree that if someone wants to do it they can kill more people faster with a gun than with a knife/axe/what-have-you. But being able to do more, faster, does not make it dangerous."
huh??? It doesn't??? since when? are you high?
You also wrote: "No disrespect intended, but I don't see the logic in "Guns are a problem precisely because they are implements of mass destruction". Bulldozers, wrecking balls, jackhammers all fit that criteria but aren't a problem."
this is just plain nonsense. Those items are not intended to be used as WEAPONS! Guns are.
You also wrote: "And I thought the problem was usually one person being killed at a time, not simultaneous mass murder?"
who said this? and who says mass murder is not a problem? on this anniversary of the worst school shooting in history, that statement is just plain disrespectful. what about Paducah, Kentucky? Springfield, Oregon? Pearl, Mississippi? mass murder is the problem, that is the point most people in this thread are trying to make. You seem to be playing at being too dense to pick up on this, I am not sure why.

You also wrote: "Other than the military, the press I usually see about mass murders involves bombs, not guns."
see above. The paper I read every day, the radio I listen to, talks about shooters and multiple victims; two dead in an old age home just yesterday in fact.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Cara
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 05:13 PM

Hhmmm. Guns outlawed after one little massacre. Those crazy Brits.

To respond to Kim, I submit this article from Salon magazine which talks at length about the issue she mentioned regarding the rise in crime in Australia after the gun buyback program there, which happened as a result of the Port Arthur killings. Apparently the Attorney General of Australia disagrees with her interpretation, because he wrote a letter to Heston denouncing the NRAs false use of the Australian situation as support for their (the NRA) crazy ideas about gun ownership. Read all about it. I think Rick Fielding brought this situation up in a thread a while back.

Also, I live in Washington, DC, and while it is true that we have gun violence problems here, they have sharply declined over the last decade or so, and are largely a function of the drug trade (America's War on Drugs being an entirely separate unsavory issue). And, while it is true that there is a ban on handguns in the district, they are very easy to procure in nearby Virginia, which has very lax handgun controls, and has therefore been flooded with weapons, as have so many loosely controlled markets, especially those near a major urban area. This is one of the main issues cited in the spate of recent suits against the gun industry brought by many U.S. cities.

I read a travel article not too long ago about British Columbia. The American author described going into a cafe and having a dishevelled, disturbed person who was fidgety and muttering to himself sit down close by. He said it made him nervous, and he was looking to move, when he remembered that he was in Canada and tat therefore the person in question was pretty unlikely to be armed. The realization shocked him. I think a lot of Americans don't realize that that sort of freedom from fear is something we are all missing out on as a result of our insane gun laws.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,cara
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 05:15 PM

My html tag for the Salon article ceased to exist, mysteriously...here it is...http://www.salon.com/politics2000/feature/2000/04/03/nra/index.html

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 05:23 PM

Not all Americans like guns or own them. Not all Americans defend the use of them under any circumstances. Americans are deeply divided on this issue.

I feel that guns are unnecessary in the hands of most people. Because they are owned, they get stolen by criminals who have learned how to use them for the greatest harm.

I believe in gun control because I don't feel that those who believe that they use them properly are capable of doing so. This has been proven time and again by the deaths created by accidents, kids and/or criminals that get ahold of them. The NRA is unwilling to police itself.

I think that Lizzie's fear is not unfounded but I would like to reassure her that this American believes in gun control no matter how much it's detractors attempt to dissuade through the politicians whose palms are greased with NRA money.

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: MarkS
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 06:32 PM

I was all set to jump in with a response to Lizzies comment on "wanting the right to own guns" but I figure this thread is long enough already! Peace MarkS

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Amergin
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 09:30 PM

Forgive me for being rude or anything but, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.............................

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:01 PM

Homeless, you said, " a gun is only a tool, like cars, knives, computers, fire, sledgehammers." The difference is that cars, knives, computers, fire, and sledgehammers are not made specifically to kill

Kim C....I live in Wyoming, have lived in the West for all but ten years of my life. Noone HAS to hunt here to get their food; a lot of us are vegetarians. (Ya ever tried to rope a wild carrot?*BG*) We know a lot of people who live out in the boonies, used to live out there ourselves. The poeple who do live out, relish those weekends when they come into the "big city of 50,000" to go to the stores and buy all the grub they need to fule their bods for the next month or so.

As for crime, not a day goes by that I don't read about another drug bust, usually involving weapons; or a wacked out spouse shooting up their partner; or any number of other violent crimes, right here in lil ole Wyomin'. I don't know how long ago you visited Cody, but there is death and destruction a'plenty, esp. in the domestic violence department and don't you know...most of 'em have a gun they can turn on the one they love.

Sorry, Kim, I don't mean to pick on you, these are just subjects I write a lot about and see, firsthand, everyday out here.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST, Saddam Hussein
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 10:08 PM

I think you should all be put up against the wall and shot.

That'll stop you arguing about it

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 20 Apr 00 - 11:02 PM

Thank you, Saddam. However, I am still going to shamelessly throw a few more thoughts into the ring.

1. For everyone that thinks that crime in America is going up. Yes, it probably is. This, however, is because the bozos running our country keep making more laws. Almost everyone is a criminal these days if you get right down to it. Maybe the answer isn't in the creation of new laws, but in the enforcement of the old laws?

2. Guns don't kill people. People kill people. Now to explain that trite, cliche little statement. Yes, yes, I know that eliminating guns completely would eleminate the problem of gun violence, but the complete elimination of guns is a very unrealistic hope. Personally, it breaks my heart that people in general are so obsessed with killing machines. If we're not killing other people, we're killing animals or the environment. I would love it if EVERYONE believed in all that "love thy neighbor" bs, but that is soomething else that is unrealistic. I admit freely that I don't love everyone, and there are some people who I would shed no tears for if they ceased to exist. However, something that IS realistic is justly punishing EVERYONE that is convicted of a crime. The biggest problem with the American justice system is that they keep trying to reform everyone. Mostly, though, they only succeed in reforming criminals into bigger, tougher badasses than they were before. Oh, some people do reform, but most people don't, and even if someone does become a reformed, upstanding citezen after murdering or raping someone else, it doesn't negate the fact that they committed a crime and should be punished for it. 25 years should mean 25 years, but now it means 7 or 12 or some other ridiculously low number. Life should mean LIFE. If someone is reformed after 10 years of a 20-year sentence, they should still be reformed (and maybe even more reformed) after finishing out the rest of their time. If they aren't reformed, that's 10 years longer that they won't be out on the streets committing more and maybe worse crimes.

3. Now for something I've always wondered about: why is it that someone who embezzles $300,000 spends more time in jail than a murderer or rapist? Is money really that important in today's society? Hackers and phreaks also spend an exceedingly long time in jail compared to killers. What's with that? Is the entire world just crazy?!?!?!

Peace--Bridget

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:55 AM

Sometimes it is crazy, Keli. There are places where it's easier to get out of a murder charge than to get out of a traffic ticket. Doesn't make much sense.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 02:58 AM

And some people think I'm strange. I swear it's not me, it's the rest of the world!!!

Peace--Keli

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: kendall
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 08:00 AM

Some years ago, here in Maine, I was reading the court news. A man was fined $25.00 for carrying a concealed weapon, and, in the same court another was fined $50.00 for driving an overloaded truck. The state will always have enough people, so, I guess it's ok to knock off a few, but, it will never have enough money. It's really sad that it is more serious to screw the state out of a few tax dollars than to carry a concealed .25 automatic.

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 09:15 AM

"it's a bit difficult for a hunter to bring down a deer by shouting "Bang! You're dead!"

Robin Hood never had a rifle...People have been been hunting deer for thousands of years, and it's only the last few hundred years anyone's had guns. A few years on and the National Raygun Association will be saying we need disintegrator pistols to hunt rabbits...

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Gary T
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 10:34 AM

Could be, McGrath, especially if "that's no ordinary rabbit!" (a la Monty Python)

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 10:59 AM

I agree with those who commented about the priority of money over human lives.

The problem is with the theory that the Government is too invasive for me is this. Who will reform if the Government doesn't do it? The "Churches" haven't managed to accomplish this. State Governments are just as corrupt as the Feds are perceived. Many gun-toting parents don't seem to have taken the responsibility for keeping guns away from kids. The NRA surely isn't helping. The issue has reached an impasse.

How do you legislate responsibility? It's a big problem.

The problem of gun owner responsibility is tied into other issues such as stewardship of the Earth, child abuse, corrupt elected officials and campaign contributions, abusive practices by the police, disenfranchisement and marginalizing of poor minorities, civil rights etc. etc.

I read somewhere that America is a low-context culture. The tendency is to focus on one issue without considering the other issues that impact upon the one. We have created for ourselves, in the words of Erich Fromm, "logic-tight compartments" where we can focus on a limited aspect and evade other issues.

Frank

Frank

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 11:51 PM

I'm not normally a violent person, much more of a pacifist, but sometimes I honestly think that there are some poeple who are completely useless as human beings and would maybe be more useful as, oh. . .say, fertilizer? There are only going to be lazy, irresponsible people as long as people themselves take no action. Big Brother only has so many eyes and arms, so no matter how much legislation gets passed, there are never going to be enough people to enforce it all. The problem is (and I will always maintain this) that the government doesn't have enough conviction to enforce the laws that already exist, and their theory seems to be that making more laws will prevent the old crimes from happening. Well, it won't. It only creates more crime, and sometimes makes criminals of honest people (especially all the gun legislation going around). The way to stop crime doesn't lie in creating more of it--in fact that seems a little counterproductive. . .

Peace--Keli

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Gary T
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:14 AM

But Keli, if you can create more crime you can then get more tax dollars to spend trying to fight it. You just aren't a big thinker, eh? (VBG)

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Kelida
Date: 22 Apr 00 - 12:27 AM

Hmmmmm. . . They don't spend those tax dollars fighting crime. It all goes into the CIA's drug business. . . and to keep the aliens a secret. . .

:^)--Keli

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From:
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:17 PM

Lizzie

This thread seems to have run itself out .. howerver, there is one thing that remains to be addressed....

I'm afraid of hair brained Brits that come to America and try to import their tyrannical Parliament's equally hair brained ideas about gun control into this country.

My reasons for bein scared are well founded ... dispite your near complete "gun control" in un-merry old England, your crime rate has soared to new heights, in that your Parliament has now provided the common criminal with no more than a victim-rich, risk-free working environment, where in your citizens are six times more likely to be murdered, raped, robbed, assaulted, or to have their homes invaded than we are here in the good ole gun-totin USA.

Considering that England is only about the size of our State of Oregon, that's a pretty pathetic record ... you in fact now have more crime in England than we have in the entire USA ... a record that most recently has been proven to be even worse than originally believed, in that the law enforcement agencies in Britian have been caught "cooking the books" concerning their methodoligy of keeping track of their soaring crime rates, which they have proven incapable of coping with.

The Brits, by US standards have always has a reputaion for being a "little slow and totally bass-ackwards" and you have proven it admirably, by recently earning the title of "The Crime Capitol of the West" in that your criminal activities, in light of your citizens inabilities to protect themselves, has now exceeded that of every other industrialized nation.

In that you seem to be totaly unaware of these FACTS, obtainable from your own government crime statistics, via Interpol and elsewhere ... then I must assume you are equally unaware of the FACT that in the USA, in those municipalities, counties and States which have the most liberal gun laws, such as the "right to carry" (concealed firearms), that our crime rates are the lowest on record.

You may "feel scared" of Americans and thier firearms ... and that is primarily YOUR problem ... most people indeed feel afraid of things that are ufamiliar to them ... and you obviously know little or nothing of the issue of "gun control" and the horrible results it has had on the people of many nations down over the past century, when they found themselves unprotected from tyranny and genocide.

But rather than "scolding you" I'd like to suggest that you contact someone here in the States and go to a gun range with them to become familiar with that which "scares you" so darn much ...

You will find that we American gun owners are by and large some 80 MILLION strong ... 5 million of which belong to the National Rifle Association and NONE of which are ever engaged in any illegal, or dangerous activities with our estimated 250 MILLION privately owned firearms ... some of which are legally registered and (horrors) fully automatic sub-machine guns and (golly jeepers) even some fully automatic .50 Calibre machine guns.

So go out and have some fun ... knock down a few metallic targets with a hand gun ... punch out some minute groups at 50 feet with a .22 target rifle and a high powered scope in gallery shooting ... hit a running deer target at 100 yards with a high powered rifle ... put together a quarter inch group of shots with a varmit rifle ... bust some clay pigeons at the trap or skeet range or better yet the newer "sporting clays" games ...

If you want to be scared of American's ... then let me suggest American Motherhood in conjunction with bathtubs and swimming pools ... where more of our infants drown each year than are ever killed or injured with firearms.

The main point is this ... become informed ... and become involved ... even if you never take up firearms, at least know what you are talking about, and your fear will leave you ...

Except for one small problem ... once you find out what the whole story is, I doubt that you will want to go back to England ...because you are safer here than you ever were there ... but then we are used to it ... the doors have been open to your "muddled asses" ever since they put that proclaimation up on the Statue of Liberty a number of years ago.

Papa

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: Catherine Jayne
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:31 PM

I'm British and I have grown up around guns. I am NOT scared of Americans or guns themselves. I am scared of the damage that guns can do if they are in the wrong hands. Any person of any nationality can cause irrepairable damage. Guns can be used for sport, hunting and used as a deterrant but they are used for killing by all nations not just the Americans.

Cat

Subject: RE: I'm scared of Americans and Guns
From: X
Date: 04 Aug 02 - 01:38 PM

Here we go again. Oh-Hum.