Lyr Req/Add: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?

Subject: RE: req/add: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: bhugh
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 02:05 PM

This "Say, brothers" version of the verse has the same rhythm as the "Glory, Hallelujah" chorus. Or in other words, in "Say, Brothers" the verse and the chorus have essentially identical melody and rhythm.

Expanding on this a little--the observant musicians among you will have noticed that the verse of Battle Hymn ("Mine eyes have seen the glory . . . " has the same exact melodic outline of the Chorus ("Glory, glory hallelujah . . . ").

In fact, really the melodies of the verse & the chorus of Battle Hymn are the same--the verse is a simple rhythmic variant of the chorus.

And the rhythmic variant generally boils down to this: The chorus often holds one note for a long time, the verse fills that same time by repeating the same note several times, generally with a dotted rhythm.

Example (key of C):

 Verse:  GG GG FE GC DE EE DC etc.
  Chorus:  G    FE GC DE    DC etc.

The "Say, brothers" lyrics fit the melody (essentially the same melody/rhythm as the Chorus of "Battle Hymn") like this:

 G     F  E    G    C    D  E      D  C  etc.
  Sa - ay Bro-thers will you mee -  t  us etc.

Subject: RE: req/add: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: bhugh
Date: 07 Apr 11 - 01:48 PM

I keep running across these lyrics:
"Say, brothers, will you meet us (3x)
On Canaan's happy shore."
but it doesn't fit the tune. One more phrase is needed.

This "Say, brothers" version of the verse has the same rhythm as the "Glory, Hallelujah" chorus. Or in other words, in "Say, Brothers" the verse and the chorus have essentially identical melody and rhythm.

Sung this way, "Say, brothers, will you meet us (3x), On Canaan's happy shore" fits the (simple and presumably, original) melody just fine--no extra phrase is needed.

In "John Brown's body", the verse has the same basic melody as "Say, brothers" but a dotted rhythms are added in a few spots to fit in a few more syllables per line.

In "Battle Hymn of the Republic" quite a LOT more syllables are added per line, and a LOT more dotted rhythms added to make those syllables fit. The result is a rhythmic variant of the same basic melody as "Say, brothers" and "John Brown" (and the chorus of "Battle Hymn").

As to the longer version:


"Say brothers will you meet us on Canaan's happy shore,
Say brothers will you meet us on Canaan's happy shore,
When the day of Judgement comes?
Glory, glory hallelujah,etc."

This longer version is almost certainly a back-adaption of the words to fit the more rhythmically active version of the melody that was created over time through the John Brown song & variants and, particularly, the Battle Hymn. The Battle Hymn wasn't the latest of the variants in date, but it was certainly the most popular and had about the most syllables per line, and thus extra rhythms added, of any variant.

More, including scans from a historical hymnal showing how the "Say, brothers" text fits with the tune:

http://brenthugh.com/piano/john-brown2.html
http://brenthugh.com/piano/john-brown.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Brown's_Body

Subject: RE: req/add: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: GUEST,Leslie Dooley
Date: 03 Feb 11 - 12:44 PM

I keep running across these lyrics:
"Say, brothers, will you meet us (3x)
On Canaan's happy shore."
but it doesn't fit the tune. One more phrase is needed.

The version offered above by Rex fits better:
Say brothers will you meet us on Canaan's happy shore,
Say brothers will you meet us on Canaan's happy shore,
When the day of Judgement comes?
Glory, glory hallelujah,etc."

Anyone know about this?

Subject: ADD: On Canaan's Happy Shore
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Jul 10 - 04:37 PM

ON CANAAN'S HAPPY SHORE
Sung by Sisters, Brothers and Chorus
Revival Hymn Book

Sisters
Say, brothers, will you meet us?
Say, brothers, will you meet us?
Say, brothers, will you meet us,
On Canaan's happy shore?
Brothers
By the grace of God we'll meet you!
By the grace of God we'll meet you!
By the grace of God we'll meet you,
Where parting is no more!
Chorus
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
For ever, evermore!
Sisters
We, a little band, before Thee,
Jesus! Lord of all, adore Thee;
Soon we'll follow Thee to glory,
On Canaan's happy shore.
Brothers
Pilgrims here we are and weary;
Dark the road has been, and dreary;
Daylight dawns, and brings us near Thee,
To Canaan's happy shore.
Sisters
When we see the river swelling,
Jesus! every fear repelling,
Show us then our Father's dwelling
On Canaan's happy shore.
Brothers
Thou hast passed on before us;
To Thine image, Lord, restore us.
Death shall never triumph o'er us
On Canaan's happy shore.
Brothers
Say, sisters, will you meet us
On Canaan's happy shore?
Sisters
By the grace of God we'll meet you,
Where parting is no more, etc. etc.

Hymns of the Populace, from Blackwood's Magazine; no author cited, printed in Littell's Living Age, vol. 93, no. 1192, 6 April 1867.

Link provided by Masato Sakurai, 15 Nov 04.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 08:05 PM

Thanks, Q. Lorenz's quotations are not always accurate. The last three lines (see above) should have been:

Banks says, "It has since been claimed that the Millerites [Adventists], in 1843, used the same tune to a hymn, one verse of which is as follows,-- 'We'll see the angels coming / Through the old churchyards [(3 times)*] / Shouting through the air / Glory, glory, hallelujah!'"
       *inserted by Lorenz

The date left out is important.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 07:34 PM

"Songs of Zion," American Tract Society, put out a second edition in 1864. Could Banks have found it in the 1864 edition and put as his reference the first edition? I have run across mistakes of this kind before. 1851 edition- an error, 1859 intended?

"The Sabbath School Bell" seems to have had a ca.1830 edition, Salem, Mass. Both it and the 1859 edition have Waters name and the same number of pages, so perhaps are the same. If so, the presence of "Say..." is unlikely.

From checking offers in Abebooks. None on "Lee Valley Casket." Of course the only gain is finding more editions to check.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 21 Dec 04 - 02:29 AM

I've seen Hymn and Tune Book of the Methodist Episcopal Church, South, Round Note Edition (Nashville, 1899, no. 899). "Mary S.B. Dana" on the score shown by Brent Hugh (see link above) is a name suffixed to the previous hymn "I'm a Pigrim." "Say Brothers" itself is said to be "Author unknown." "Say Brothers" or hymn with a similar melody hasn't been found in Songs of Zion: A Manual of The Best and Most Popular Hymns and Tunes, For Social and Private Devotion (Boston: American Tract Society, 1851), nor in Horace Waters, comp., The Sabbath-School Bell (New York: Horace Waters, [1859]). Are they different books?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 11:30 AM

One of the earliest mentions of Steffe as composer is in Brander Matthews' "The Songs of the War" (The Century; a popular quarterly. / Volume 34, Issue 4, Aug 1887, p. 622).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 10:33 AM

Ellen Jane Lorenz, in her Glory, Hallelujah!: The Story of the Campmeeting Spiritual (Abingdon, 1978, p. 121), writes (underline added):

Say, brothers, will you meet us illustrates the singability of the campmeeting choruses; it is the campmeeting chorus most parodied, from the time of its first creation up to the present. ... L.A. Banks relates its story in his Immortal Songs of Camp and Field [1898]. His first meeting with the song was in Charleston in 1859, with a performance soon after at the YMCA of Albany, N.Y. (But the present study reveals a publication in Songs of Zion, 1851.) Banks says, "It has been claimed that the Millerites [Adventists] used the tune to a hymn, 'We'll see the angels coming through the old church yard (3 times) / Shouting through the air / Glory, glory, hallelujah.'"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 07:53 AM

The Revivalist by Joseph Hillman was published in 1868 and 1872 (according to George Pullen Jackson).

In the Print Bibliography at Patriotic Melodies (Library of Congress) (linked to above by Q), there is Katherine Little Bakeless's Glory, hallelujah! The story of the Battle hymn of the republic (Philadelphia and New York: J. B. Lippincott Company, 1944). The author, however, does not believe Steffe composed the tune, saying that:

    This hymn ["Say, Brothers, Will you Meet Us?"] may be found in an old hymn book of 1860, called the Sabbath School Bell, but no author's name is given. There is the acknowledgment that it was taken from the "'LEE AVENUE CASKET.' By permission," and "arranged" by Frank H. Lummus.
    [part of score quoted]
    This "arrangement," which uses a more even, calm rhythm (introduced by the words), does not ask for the rousing march tempo that swings along John Brown's Body.
    Except for this story, Steffe's name seems to have been forgotten, for there appears to be no record of his having written any other tunes. This hymn is supposed to have appeared in a hymn book called The Lee Avenue Collection, Part 2, No. 208, compiled by Jeremiah Johnson, Jr., "about" 1858, and to have been first printed in The Lee Avenue Sunday School Casket, Vol. 1, No. 152, "before" 1858.

Bakeless suggested Thomas Bingham Bishop composed it throughout the book.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 17 Nov 04 - 01:13 AM

Earlier in this thead Dicho posted "Say, Brothers" from Newman White, "American Negro Folk Songs." White copied it from "The Revivalist," no. 173, p. 92. Does anyone know the date of this publication? I think it would have been a rather late version of the song, but curious about it.
The Library of Congress attributes "Say, Brothers" to William Steffe "about" 1856, and sung around Charleston, SC, but this origin seems to be disputed by others. The use of the tune of the chorus in a popular song (She Had Such Wheedling Ways) published in 1855 (Masato's post in thread 71356) seems to put the origin earlier.
Origin John Brown

Library of Congress discussion: Battle Hymn

The McClellan song sheet posted by Jim Dixon is interesting. John Bull's delivery of supplies to the South in the early years of the war was a strong irritant in the North.

Subject: Lyr Add: BUMMERS, COME AND MEET US
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 11:05 PM

Found this song sheet at The Library of Congress American Memory Collection:

BUMMERS, COME AND MEET US.
(H. De Marsan, Publisher, 60 Chatham St. New York; no date)

McClellan is our leader now, we've had our last retreat; (3x)
We'll now go marching on.
Say, brothers, will you meet us? (3x)
As we go marching on.

Thomas turned a SOMERSET, and gave the Rebels rats; (3x)
And sent them rolling home.
Oh, brothers, we will join him; (3x)
And send them rolling home.

How are you, Johnny Bull, old boy? How are you, Johnny Bull? (2x)
If you want to fight, old Roast Beef, you will get your belly full,
And then go rolling home.
Oh, Johnny, don't you fight us; (3x)
Or we'll send you rolling home.

We'll have a farm in Dixie, boys, and put some niggers on it; (3x)
And, then, we'll simmer down.
Oh, sisters, come and join us; (3x)
Way down in Dixie's Land.

Oh, boys, we'll sip our cobbler's then, and cloud our Meerschaum pipes; (3x)
Way down in Dixie's Land.
Oh, bummers, come and meet us; (3x)
Way down in Dixie's Land.

There lies the whiskey-bottle empty on the shelf; (3x)
But there's more in the Demi-John.
Oh, bummers, don't you leave us; (3x)
We'll soon go marching on.

The girls we left behind us, boys, our sweet-hearts at the North; (3x)
Smile on us as we march.
Oh, sweet-hearts, don't forget us; (3x)
We'll soon come marching home!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 12:56 PM

Interesting article. Littell's seems to have copied from the leading journals of the day.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:54 AM

The Living Age, Volume 93, Issue 1192 (April 6, 1867), p. 13.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 10:55 PM

Thanks for the reference to the Brent Hugh texts. New to me.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 08 Nov 04 - 08:54 PM

Sheet music of "Say, Brothers":

'Origin of the John Brown Song' by George Kimball (New England Magazine, vol. 7, issue 4, Dec. 1889, p. 327)

Texts Sung to the Tune of "Battle Hymn of the Republic" and "John Brown's Body" by Brent Hugh.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: masato sakurai
Date: 02 Jun 02 - 02:12 AM

George Pullen Jackson notes:
"This ["Say Brothers"] will be recognized as the tune which Julia Ward Howe used for the chorus of the 'Battle Hymn of the Republic'. It is still popular in the above form [as "Say Brothers"] in negro churches of the South." (Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America, p. 207)
He presents, in addition, a Negro spiritual version of "Say Brothers" in his White and Negro Spirituals (1944; Da Capo, 1975, p. 179), with this comment: "Recorded by the present author as sung May 21, 1933, in Zema Hill's Primitive Baptist Church, Nashville, Tennessee. Earlier variants are in White's Fisk Jubilee Songs of 1872, pages 14 and 140." (p. 179); the tune is practically the same.

The ol'-time religion it is good enough for me,
The ol'-time religion it is good enough for me,
The ol'-time religion it is good enough for me
As we go marching home.

~Masato

Subject: Lyr Add: SAY, BROTHERS
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 02 Jun 02 - 12:19 AM

SAY, BROTHERS

Say, brothers, will you meet us?
Say, brothers, will you meet us?
On Canaan's happy shore?

Say, sisters, will you meet us, etc.

By the grace of God we'll meet you
Where parting is no more;
That will be a happy meeting
On Canaan's happy shore.

Jesus lives and reigns forever,
On Canaan's happy shore.
Glory, glory, hallelujah!
Forever, evermore!

The Revivalist, No. 173, p. 95. From American Negro Folk Songs, 1928, Newman L. White, 1965 reprint, Appendix, p. 434-435. A variant of the version posted by Rex.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: Rex
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 01:00 PM

Forgot to mention, if anyone knows anymore verses, etc.. Hey! speak up by all means.

Rex

Subject: Lyr Add: SAY, BROTHER, WILL YOU MEET US? etc.
From: Rex
Date: 21 Apr 00 - 12:32 PM

Funny how these things turn up. I was just chatting with Irwin Silber about this today. He's kind of familier with the subject. Anyway here are all the words I've been able to get.... Rex
---------------------------------------------------------

Say, Brother, Will You Meet Us?
(No. 202 in "Spiritual Songs of Early America" by George Pullen Jackson)

Say, Brother, will you meet us?
Say, Brother, will you meet us?
Say, Brother, will you meet us?
On Canaan's happy shore.

Glory, glory hallelujah,
Glory, glory hallelujah,
Glory, glory hallelujah,
As we go marching on.

Say, Sister, will you meet us? ....

By the grace of God we'll meet you, ....

That will be a happy meeting,.....

Jesus lives and reigns forever,....

Glory, glory hallelujah....
Forever, evermore.

Here's another version.
------------------------------------------------------
Say Brothers Will We Meet You

Say brothers will you meet us on Canaan's happy shore,
Say brothers will you meet us on Canaan's happy shore,
When the day of Judgement comes?
Glory, glory hallelujah,
Glory, glory hallelujah,
Glory, glory hallelujah,
When the day of Judgement comes?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From: MMario
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:23 PM

this site tells the story

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us?
From:
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:22 PM

(continuation) The tune was used to chant the 133rd Psalm. This Psalm is about brotherhood and unity and is one of 15 songs of degrees or ascents. It was sung by pilgrims returning to Jerusalem to ascend the steps of the temple.

The Say Brothers hymn seems to express a Christian hope for returning to the Holy Land. Its origin in the 1850's is coincidental to the growing interest in the USA of building Zion and restoring Israel. Due to the common themes, one possibility is that a folk chanting of the 133rd Psalm predated and inspired this hymn.

In Sept 1976 a Sephardic Rabbi chanted this Psalm to me using the Battle Hymn tune with a plaintive tone. He described it as the correct way to chant the Psalm, but I did not ask him about the history of the tune.

Subject: Say Brothers Will You Meet Us on ?
From:
Date: 19 Apr 00 - 08:08 PM

I am looking for the lyrics to this 1850's camp revival hymn. It was later added to the Methodist Hymnal.

In April 1861, soldiers at Ft. Warren near Boston sang the hymn to pass the time while preparing for war. Their seargeant, John Brown, had the same name as the abolitionist who lit the fire to start the war. Due to the coincidence, the men created John Brown lyrics as a parody.

In November of 1861 near Washington DC, Julia Ward Howe was with her husband, other abolitionists, and President Lincoln. She was asked to pen new lyrics. After reading from the book of Isaiah, she woke up early the next morning to pen the Battle Hymn of the Republic lyrics. The new hymn encouraged the Union and helped to shift the purpose of the war toward freeing the slaves.

Many lyrical parodies have been made to the simple and captivating tune. At least by the 1960's or 1970's, Jewish youth camps used the tune for the purpose of chanting

---

Library of Congress Page on 'Battle Hymn of the Republic'