Ancient Celtic Tunes

Subject: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Brennus
Date: 15 May 00 - 02:55 AM

I am interested in finding tunes which are considered to be the oldest extant in the Celtic music tradition, ones that can be assumed to have existed prior to 1650 or so. Possible types include: sean nos songs, ceol mor pipe tunes, clan marches, and/or harp tunes.

Any suggestions on titles and the sources where they can be found would be greatly appreciated.

Go raibh maith agat.

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: dulcimer
Date: 15 May 00 - 06:39 AM

Try http://services.worldnet.net/~pybertra/ceol/

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: GUEST,T in Oklahoma (Okiemockbird)
Date: 15 May 00 - 09:14 AM

The Gregorian chant repertory was cultivated in lands where Celtic languages were spoken, as it was elsewhere. Hence Gregorian chant is probably the oldest extant "Celtic" music.

T.

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: paddymac
Date: 15 May 00 - 09:19 AM

One of my favorites favorites within your parameters is "The Girl I Left Behind" which dates back to at least the time of Elizabeth I. Many of the tunes in O'Neill's and the Fiddler's Fake Book probably also qualify, but you'ld have to do some research to sort them out.

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 May 00 - 09:49 AM

Documenting the Oral/Aural Traditon is never easy. The earliest I have been able to document what we call "Celtic" is O'Carolan, but we all "know" there was stuff before that. You may have to define "Celtic" before you can go much farther-----Hallstadt? LaTene? Ireland?

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 15 May 00 - 10:41 AM

David Byers' Homepage has some historical information.

There was a collection of Irish tunes published in 1724, the Neal Collection. I don't know if the melodies have been dated.

Some of the melodies in the Fitzwilliam Virginal Book are called "Irish", e.g. "The Irish Ho-Hoane". Of course, this doesn't mean they truly were Irish in origin.

T.

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Megan L
Date: 15 May 00 - 02:48 PM

The oldest I know is the hymn 'be thou my vision' thought to have been written around the 6th century.

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Alice
Date: 15 May 00 - 03:14 PM

Brennus, have you looked at Bruce Olson's Website?
click here - Old and Rare, W. Bruce Olson

The songs on Bruce's website as well as the links he provides should give you plenty of material.

alice

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 15 May 00 - 03:50 PM

The Irish words now often translated "Be thou my vision" are old. (So, for that matter, are the Irish and Latin words to many other hymns, such as "Atomriug indiu " = "I arise today", also known as "St. Patrick's Lorica".) But the melody (Brennus is seeking tunes) is much more recent. My guess would be, 18th-19th century.

T.

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 15 May 00 - 03:51 PM

It is my understanding also that the Irish words now often translated "Be thou my vision" are old. (So, for that matter, are the Irish and/or Latin words to many other Irish hymns, such as "Atomriug indiu " = "I arise today", also known as "St. Patrick's Lorica".) But the melody (Brennus is seeking tunes) is much more recent. My guess would be, 18th-19th century.

T.

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Petr
Date: 15 May 00 - 04:00 PM

There is a chieftains and harp cd which lists one tune as the earliest written Irish tune (I think it dates to the 13th century but I ll have to look it up. PEtr

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Penny S.
Date: 15 May 00 - 05:16 PM

If you have the words, with the metre and the rhyme scheme, they should suggest the sort of melody which would go with them, shouldn't they? I can't read the Irish words of the Lorica, or Be Thou my Vision: do they fit the well known tunes (several to St Patrick, aren't there), or do they demand some other sort of pattern?

Penny

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Mbo
Date: 15 May 00 - 06:49 PM

Petr, the tune is "Deirdre's Lament for the Sons of Usnach", considered to be the oldest known Irish song.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: dulcimer
Date: 15 May 00 - 08:55 PM

Mbo--is there a midi somewhere for Deirdre's Lament?

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From:
Date: 16 May 00 - 12:31 AM

Are there words to that song?

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: GUEST,Okiemockbird
Date: 16 May 00 - 09:32 AM

Here is a commentary on an Altramar recording with some historical comments.

T.

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Penny S.
Date: 16 May 00 - 04:30 PM

I think Geoffrey of Monmouth discusses the singing of the Welsh - I'm not sure about the Irish - not the same as music itself, but the passage was interesting.

Penny

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Alice
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:14 PM

Search the forum with the words "oldest song" for an earlier thread on this topic.

Alice

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: Alice
Date: 16 May 00 - 10:45 PM

Sorry, that should be click here "oldest folk" not oldest song.

Alice

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: ofurey
Date: 17 May 00 - 04:46 PM

I am looking for some jigs and reels .mid. Can you help with that? Joe

Subject: RE: Ancient Celtic Tunes
From: keltcgrasshoppper
Date: 17 May 00 - 07:31 PM

The book "O'Neill's Music of Ireland" is probably a good source for tunes.. Not songs though.. But if its jigs and reels, and slip jigs and on and on... this is the book to get..It has over 1,000 tunes..