Mudcat ABC Tune Guide

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Calum
Date: 06 May 13 - 02:31 PM

Jack, given you've just announced your interest in ABC on a publicly accessible forum, I'm struggling to see what information Yahoo can usefully learn about you.

And web forums are not a good substitute for most mailing lists I use. I would not visit it except when I had a problem, and I can provide a lot more help when other people's problems arrive directly in my inbox.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 May 13 - 08:45 AM

Mick, thanks for your explanations. If I understand correctly, also your post to that other thread of 02 May 13 - 06:41 PM, the main problem is that the programmers cannot agree on a standard. If they could, it would be the ABC standard, regardless of what others write. (Chris Walshaw, the authors of those "proposals", and most other members of "abcusers" must probably be regarded as an "advisory board".) Even abcm2ps and abc2midi, often found bundled, differ in their interpretation of the standard, and each version of abcm2ps differs from its predecessors (let alone "fork-offs", as perhaps used in concertina.net). I doubt that anybody can enforce "an enforced standard" if the influential programmers don't bother. The reasons why they didn't bother so far still escape me; it may be a matter of policy (but why?, and why don't the users seem to protest?) or just lack of consciousness; in the latter case there is hope for improvement.

All we can do at Mudcat is to proclaim a "Mudcat ABC Standard" in due time. It should

• include support of multivoice tunes, particularly SATB choral music in modern clefs,
• be supported by some free software for producing sheet music,
• be supported by some free software for producing sound and MIDI files,
• be supported by some free software for conversion to MusicXML,
• - all these for Windows, Mac, and Linux,
• and never change in the future, except for extensions,

for which the best idea is to refer to a subset of a published standard officially accepted by all those programmers.

We must wait for relevant news from the principal programmers; whoever hears any should please inform us. Until then, ABC 2.1 as implemented in new versions of abcm2ps (presumably the engine of mandolintab.net), minus the "volatile" parts, can serve as the "Provisional Mudcat ABC Standard".

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 07 May 13 - 09:12 AM

Grishka - I think it's not so much that the programmers couldn't agree on a standard, as that there wasn't a real standard to agree to, and discussions on the 2.0 draft just went on and on. I hope now that Chris Walshaw is back at the helm that he will make final decisions on a standard based on the various discussions and that programmers will start to implement that standard.

I've started looking at some of the programs listed on the abcnotation software page. Many are just wrappers for abcm2ps/abc2midi or similar, so that cuts down the number of packages to look at.

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 07 May 13 - 10:40 AM

Mick, let's hope for the best. I remember reading that Jean-François Moine refused to take any notice of ABC 2.0, and that it was eventually (about 2010) declared the official standard, apparently without anybody even considering implementing it. (ArtfulCodger professed to "stick to" it - with what software? "Read-only"?) To ABC 2.1, at least JFM complied to a large extent - presumably a case of Muhammad and the Mountain, JFM being the latter -, but the keeper of abc2midi did not seem to bother at all. These two at least had better striven for an agreement.

As much as we want a "non-volatile" new standard, Mudcat should not hail it before enough software has been pledged to support it.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 08 May 13 - 09:15 AM

Grishka - I don't know if you've ever used MuseScore. It's one of the standard (free) packages for music writing in Linux, but it is cross-platform for Windown, OSX and Linux. The latest version (1.3 ,it's not in Ubunut repositories yet, but there's a ppa for it) has an improved abc import plugin - it imported Adam Lay Ybounden (with middle=d added to V3/4) - without any problems. I'm not sure of the import mechanism yet, it said you needed to be connected to the internet to use it - but it may be a way forward. At the moment it doesn't (afaik) have an abc export facility, but that might be rectifiable. I'll have a look at the source code later and see what's involved. If an abc export was available, then we would have a proper graphical input method for creating abc files. You might still want to use eg abcm2ps for final printing (or even the Lilypond export) but it looks promising. It might also be nicer to have the abc import handle multitune files - it was confused by an abc stylesheet header on another file I tried to import and only imported the first tune from a multitune file - I think it probably stops at the first blank line.
But these are relatively minor things to change.

If the import supported 2.1 and an export for 2.1 was written, it would be a possible uniform cross-platform program to use for abc

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 08 May 13 - 10:46 AM

Yes, I know about MuseScore and the "plugin" you mention - it contains a call to a web service that runs abc2xml.py, and then uses the built-in MusicXML convertor. I am not a fan of web services for free software (- for commercial software we will probably have to accept it as a way of payment), all the more so as abc2xml.py is freely available, and so is the required Python environment for all platforms. Other people may prefer web services to installing Python or Java etc., either for simplicity or for security concerns.

Anyway, abc2xml.py (not to be confused with earlier attempts of similar names) is quite good for my demands, as I mentioned on the other thread. So is its converse xml2abc.py. I am not so sure about the MusicXML support of MuseScore; I remember that it had severe bugs a while ago. I do not use MuseScore regularly.

As for the standard compliance of the two tools, I don't know of any problem, neither with ABC nor with MusicXML. Still, it cannot possibly be any less "volatile" than the standards themselves. (ArtfulCodger tells us that MusicXML is not very well standardized either, though I have never heard of genuine problems that were not clearly seen as bugs. I guess any doubt can be resolved by experimenting in Finale - not a good way of defining a standard, to be sure, but effective.)

On some more reading in "abcusers", I am not convinced that we will soon see a good result. I cannot judge about the quality of the discussions and proposaly, but unless my sample was extremely unrepresentative, JFM and the other major programmers are scarcely involved. Chris Walshaw may have given up the hope even to repeat the relative/partial success of ABC 2.1. If neither he nor others offer a good standard to us, Mudcat must become active in the way I described above.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 May 13 - 10:52 AM

Mick:
Thanks for the info on "octave=-2" It's tested out fine. I had the problem because I hadn't found one reliable site for printing from ABC. I'd been using Folkinfo, but when it went down I started casting about.
I use MuseScore for quite a bit now for church music.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: pavane
Date: 08 May 13 - 02:29 PM

Grishka, I think my HARMONY does all that except LINUX. It is written in VB6, which is only available on Windows (Unlss anyone tells me otherwise). It also prevents me from deploying an internet version. I know a 'catter did try to get it working with WINE, but not fully successfully.

1. include support of multivoice tunes, particularly SATB choral music in modern clefs,

I think so, but let me know if it needs tweaking. Certainly up to 10 voices, and aligned lyrics as well

2. be supported by some free software for producing sheet music,

It prints sheet music itself

3. be supported by some free software for producing sound and MIDI files,

It produces sound and MIDI files itself - playback is via temporary MIDI files, which can be saved.

4. be supported by some free software for conversion to MusicXML,

It can export basic MusicXML, though I haven't fully implemented all decorators yet.

5. It supports much of abc2.1 as I understood it at the time.

It has many other facilities and functions that may or may not be unique, e.g. generating random tunes in the style of a jig or reel - some are almost usable. I am not sure that many people want to play tunes backwards, either - it is supposed to give inspiration for your composing.

Adding harmony/accompaniment to a melody line was the original aim.
It allows tune structures to be specified and played (eg AC(2ABc)) Also Melodeon tablature, string tablature, on-score drag and drop editing, note styles, tonic solfa, coloured notes - the list goes on.

Due to lack of interest, I haven't done any work on it for ages (And been too busy writing my book, which has now been published). Due to lack of LINUX, I haven't even looked to see what the other packages offer.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Artful Codger
Date: 08 May 13 - 06:15 PM

Nigel, the converter (and interface) formerly hosted at folkinfo.org is now available at mandolintab.net. I trust it far more than the Concertina.net converter, which has a less flexible interface, was left to languish for many years without updates, and was glaringly misconfigured for guitar chords. Judging from comments above, most of these issues may now have been resolved, and the current maintainers may be making more commitment to keeping it up to rev. You can take your chances with it; I've given it up.

The mandolintab converter is free to use, requires no installation or user upgrading, and provides a sort of de facto portability standard, since everone can use it directly regardless of their own OS. The print output is very clean.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 May 13 - 12:57 PM

Grishka - I sussed the abc2xml remote service after I'd posted. In fact I've now added my own plugin to do the reverse - output abc from a score using a local copy of xml2abc.py. I'll probably modify the import to use a local copy too, rather than needing the internet access. The export js needs a bit of work too - it's outputting to a fixed file at the moment; I need to add a file selection option like the abc import plugin has. It would also be nice to be able to add other headers to the output. But as proof of concept it's fine. It would also be nice if the import scanned a tunebook for the titles and let you select from the title list rather than using the default first tune only from the tunebook. I may look at that too.

Both of the python converters seem to work well. I imported Nigel's Adam Lay Ybounden and then re-exported the abc and used abcm2ps on it and the output looked fine.

The only problem the xml2abc.py has is that it outputs tempo changes on Q: commands after things like rit and accel, so the modified score not only has the text instruction but a MM value too. It's not really a problem (and I dare say it wouldn't be too difficult to add suppression of these as another command line argument).

I'll probably try this out for a while when I need to create some abc and see how I like the generated abc. It's a cheap solution to wysisyg creation of abc.

Mick

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 09 May 13 - 03:06 PM

De-facto standard: Mudcat posters may well check thir tunes with mandolintab, but if they want their work to survive for another year or two, they are best advised to dispense with all those extra features of abcm2ps that are not contained in ABC 2.1, or are declared "volatile".

MuseScore: somewhere I read that the programmers planned to implement direct import and export of ABC, as soon as there is a stable standard. Until then, Mick, your own programming efforts may be welcome. The author of those Python tools updates them frequently, he can be googled as an "abcusers" member.

For my own occasional ABC needs, I use a notation program that predates MusicXML but with which I am very quick, and export the tunes to ABC via MidiZyx2abc.jar, then if desired to MusicXML via abc2xml.py. I agree with Artful that this is a makeshift; newbies will be better off with programs for which MusicXML support is available, e.g. MuseScore.

Mick, you seem to be a dedicated programmer; your efforts for our goal are greatly appreciated. The same applies to anyone else who can work for the standard we need.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Artful Codger
Date: 09 May 13 - 06:17 PM

As long as users explicitly tag their ABCs with the version they're coding to, the "volatile" features should be safe to use. In fact, if they're coding to any version prior to 2.1, things should work properly without a version tag, since the standard says that converters should default to 2.0 behavior, for backward compatibility. (Whether converters will actually follow suit remains to be seen.)

Similarly, since abcm2ps is the most widely used program for formatting, I would hope that developers would include support for a core subset of its extended features for any ABC versioned explicity or by default as 2.0 or before. The paucity of the "official" standard in regard to format control should not prevent users from using badly-needed features that already exist in this alternate de facto standard.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Calum
Date: 11 May 13 - 08:03 AM

>> We must wait for relevant news from the principal programmers; whoever hears any should please inform us.

Most of them post with some regularity at the abcusers group on Yahoo.

>> The reasons why they didn't bother so far still escape me

Because creating a fully featured specification that is backwards compatible is incredibly difficult, and different programs cater to different users with different needs.

For example, how do you write ABC for scordatura tunings that will print and play correctly?

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 May 13 - 09:11 AM

how do you write ABC for scordatura tunings that will print and play correctly?

Use the "transpose" directives provided in BarFly. You write the notes played on the retuned string as a separate voice (to be played transposed) and merge them (untransposed) with the rest of the tune for display and printing.

Subject: RE: Mudcat ABC Tune Guide
From: GUEST,Grishka
Date: 11 May 13 - 11:38 AM

Calum,

Most of them post with some regularity at the abcusers group on Yahoo.

In my sample of threads, admittedly not too big, I encountered very few messages to the topic by JFM, and none by the authors of abc2midi and BarFly. I hope they are at least reading, and willing to comply to a new standard designed by CW and the other discussers. It did not work with ABC 2.0 though, so we must hope that they change their minds.

> The reasons why they didn't bother so far [to agree on interpretations of some basic ABC syntax] still escape me

Because creating a fully featured specification that is backwards compatible is incredibly difficult

I appreciate that; but again, the best standard is useless without programmers planning to implement it. In contrast, some minimal amount of communication between the major programmers would be easy, if they felt the need.

and different programs cater to different users with different needs.

That seems to be the real problem: each freeware programmer has his own ideas about winning the gratitude of a particular group of users. JFM, for instance, is an organist. Now those users who want to use abcm2ps and abc2midi, as frequently bundled, should insist on a higher degree of compatibility between the two than currently achieved. A while ago I wrote an email in French to JFM, who replied something like "Thanks for your bug report; will be fixed." —

For example, how do you write ABC for scordatura tunings that will print and play correctly?

I personally am more modest; see above for the requirements I believe to be sufficient for Mudcat purposes. The task is obviously still difficult enough, so that joint intellectual forces would be required. Do you really see this kind of cooperation, and predict its success in acceptable time?

Jack, if you refuse to read "abcusers", did you read the "proposals" on abcnotation.com, mentioned by Mick (06 May 13 - 01:19 PM)? What is your opinion? What strategies would you recommend to the ABC people and to Mudcat? BarFlyers may feel the need for a stable Mudcat standard more strongly than typical abcm2ps users. The same question goes to all ABC experts (which excludes myself, a grateful user of ...2abc and abc2... tools).