Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory

Subject: Land of Hope and Glory
From: GUEST,Banjo Johnny
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 11:48 PM

"LAND OF HOPE AND GLORY" -- how traditional can you get? Yet, it's not here! Come on, Brits, help me out - Thanks!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Brendy
Date: 05 Jun 00 - 11:53 PM

I'm no Brit, If you must

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:12 AM

2nd verse of GSTQ:
'knavish' is a PC adjustment. The original is 'popish'

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:25 AM

I'm curious Brendy, why was your reply to Banjo Johnny so terse? You don't like the song? Don't feel the song fits the forum, or what? Not trying to start a flame, but just wondered. Seems to me the question was legitimate. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:33 AM

I'm sorry if people thought my reply was terse. It wasn't meant to be. The post should have read:

I'm no Brit, but....If you must!

If I had any objections to it's inclusion, I would hardly have directed his attention to it, would I? At least I answered his question, and within 5 minutes

Why do some people always assume the worst?

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Banjo Johnny
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:34 AM

TO BRENDY - Why do you think I was accusing YOU of being British? Or did you think I was accusing ALL the Mudcats of being Brits? And why are you referring to "God Save the Queen"? Do you think it is the same song? If so, you don't know what you are talking about, so why not stay out of it? BANJO JOHNNY

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:35 AM

Fuck off, I gave you the words, didn't I?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Banjo Johnny
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:38 AM

No, you didn't.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:43 AM

Well what's on the other end of that link I provided? Maybe this one will work

B.

---

Here's the information from the link. -Joe Offer-

Land of Hope and Glory

*Click here for a MIDI file of Land of Hope & Glory or an inferior version [Pomp & Circumstance, #1]
*Click here for a Real Audio file of Land of Hope and Glory

[Note: Although real audio files are capable of being "streamed" over the net, that is not possible  from the server I am using on this page (that may change). But even as downloadables, they are much smaller than AU and WAV files. You will need a Real Audio player installed to play them. It is from from the Real Audio Website. ]

The music is Sir Edward Elgar's Pomp and Circumstance March No. 1 of 1902. During World War I, it was used as the theme for part of a poem by A. C. Benson (1862-1925) [the homosexaul Catholic convert son of the Archbishop of Canterbury, if memory serves right], by the music hall star Marie Lloyd. It was immediately adopted as perhaps the second most sung national song after God Save the King. Perhaps the reason was that it can be sung with much more gusto.

Dear Land of Hope, thy hope is crowned.
God make thee mightier yet!
On Sov'ran brows, beloved, renowned,
Once more thy crown is set.
Thine equal laws, by Freedom gained,
Have ruled thee well and long;
By Freedom gained, by Truth maintained,
Thine Empire shall be strong.

Land of Hope and Glory,
Mother of the Free,
How shall we extol thee,
Who are born of thee?
Wider still and wider
Shall thy bounds be set;
God, who made thee mighty,
Make thee mightier yet.

Thy fame is ancient as the days,
As Ocean large and wide:
A pride that dares, and heeds not praise,
A stern and silent pride:
Not that false joy that dreams content
With what our sires have won;
The blood a hero sire hath spent
Still nerves a hero son.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:43 AM

Works for me

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: DougR
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 02:39 AM

Whoa, you two. I was the one that questioned your reply, Brendy. And I asked the question only out of curiousity, not because I wanted to start a flame war with anybody. No reason for the two of you having at each other. Peace!

DougR

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 02:56 AM

I agree totally, Doug.
Perhaps my typo error was misunderstood. But I thought it would have been given the benefit of the doubt.

I didn't think it appropriate to come in and correct it. Some things just don't work if you have to repeat the 'witticism'.
And without trying to get into the reasons why people phrase things the way they do, and if there is indeed a hidden meaning to be extracted from a seemingly innocent statement, I think I 'handled' it with at least a little humour.

I didn't think that our collective senses of humour was all that different on these kind of things.

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 09:01 AM

Brendy,

Thanks for the link.

Walrus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: alison
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 10:47 AM

Brendy's link worked fine for me.....

not one of my favourite songs.... but always a highlight of the "Last night of the Proms... (must admit I prefer "Jerusalem" great tune.. very stirring... also at Brendy's link)).....

I always thought there were more than 3 verses to "God save the queen" (which is also at the link Brendy gave if you check it out).. isn't there another one about beating the crap out of the Scots? (no offence to any Scots out there)

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Turtle
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 11:38 AM

"Jerusalem" is one of my favorites as well, Alison. Do you know Billy Bragg's rendition of it? Aaahhh! It's the best. Clean, clear, and not soppy.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 12:34 PM

Within 5 minutes of Banjo Johnny posting his query, Brendy comes up with the link; and then gets slagged off by BJ because he can't recognise a blue clicky thing when he sees it. When's the apology coming? One is definitely due.

Actually I read somewhere that Elgar couldn't stand the words of Land of Hope and Glory. He reckoned they buggered up his tune, and that the sentiments were crass.

Looking at the link Brendy kindly supplied, I can't see how anyone can fairly call Jerusalem an "British Imperialistic Anthem" Anthem maybe, but hardly Imperialistic in its words, and not even British really ("England's Green and Pleasant Land" - not a mention of Britain.)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 01:03 PM

Brendy, I saw nothing in your post that needed the response it got - what a site that is! I cannot stand "I vow to thee", with its swearing away of things which the country should defend, not demand as its own. Spoils a good tune. I prefer the national hymns in Congregational Praise, like "Oh God of Earth and Altar" and "When wilt thou save the people?" which my mother wanted at her funeral, but eventually decided against because they might offend some more conservative friends

Penny

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 02:30 PM

"Oh God of Earth and Altar" - great hymn that one by Chesterton. Glad you have it in the Congegational book. I remember singing it in the field by Aldermaston on the first march I went on. Of course there's nothing specifically about England or Britain in it, intentionally. (And it's anti-imperialistic.)

But I'm not sure I agree with you, Penny, about I Vow to Thee, if you pay equal attention to both verses.

That's an interesting site there Brendy came up with.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Brendy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 02:49 PM

Well, thanks to all of you who saw no harm in the way I provided the link.
I'm afraid Con...I mean John.....I mean Banjo Johnny may not come back to thank me; an avid collector of song certainly would already have that song somewhere else, so I think the excercise was superfluous in itself. Although, you are all right - interesting stuff on those pages.
Peace and Reconciliation

B.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: sophocleese
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 02:52 PM

Once heard a tenor, David James, sing Land of Hope and Glory in the manner of Dame Clara Butts. Nearly wet my pants I was laughing so hard.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 06:34 PM

Thanks for the link, Brendy. I'd been looking for 'Jerusalem' for years. Also, I once (when very green) asked a Welsh friend for the words of 'Rule Britannia'. I didn't get them, but we're still friends. - Susanne

Subject: Lyr Add: LAND OF HOPELESS TORIES (parody)
From: Snuffy
Date: 06 Jun 00 - 07:47 PM

Here's a parody of Land of Hope and Glory I did 5 years ago ago for a mummers play based on an updated Broadway Mummers Play. Of course since then we've got rid of the Tories and got a pale imitation of them instead.

LAND OF HOPELESS TORIES

From the Off-Broadway Mummers Play 1995

Land of Hopeless Tories, Labour's just as bad.
They're all lining their pockets. Don't you think you've been had?
Fatter still and fatter do the fat cats get.
Sell the Royal family - get us out of debt.

Land of Hopeless Tories. Major's pulling his hair
Over Euro-rebels - send for Tony Blair.
Wider still and wider grows the Labour lead.
God who's running the country - just a hamster on speed.

Land of Hopeless Tories - a penny off the tax
While there's millions not working. No-one gives a fax.
Wider still and wider grows the poverty gap.
Privatise the railways - what a load of crap!


Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: GUEST,Hermione Heyhoe-Smythe
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:50 AM

Richard!! Oh Richard, darling!!
Come, come! Come out through the French doors and join us on the patio!
The cha-wallah has brewed a rather decent Darjeeling, and I have added the bergamot myself. We are all just about to have some Tea.

I'm afraid Reggie had to go down to see those M.O.D. chaps in London. Apparently there is some sort of hoo-ha going on in Rhodesia. It's all hush-hush at the moment, so I can't say anymore.
Can't for the life of me think what Smith would want now, after all these years!
Blasted cheek, if you ask me.

Reggie sends his regards, and asked me to ask you to remember him to dear Victor. Reginald didn't elaborate, but I think it had something to do with a bash at the MCC a few years back after some famous Test win over pakistan or someone. Oh Reggie could cut quite a step in those days, I can tell you!
But let us sit, Richard, along with all our new chums, and let us remember our glorious past, and absent friends who are no longer with us any more.
Oh Joy! Oh England!

Let us lower the flag on this glorious day,
and stand in salute of it's sons.
Let us sound once the cannon and shout 'hip hurrah!'
'Cos we shoved it right into those Huns.
We were fond, I recall, of our masterly throne,
(we perfected the fine art of leisure).
With our ships at full-mast; port side out, starboard home,
Cutting swathes through our enemies' treasures.

There were times in our past; T'was to live or to die!,
with our honour and destiny gainsaid.
That we stood on the bridge in the face of the Host,
who were barely a tad more than brain-dead.
But let's rake not the past, for the grief is too great,
Let us savour these moments of pleasance.
Let's all raise a glass; 'Jolly England!' we cry.
As we drink to it's sad de-tumescence.

:) H. H-S

(Just another one of my little offerings!)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: alison
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 08:46 AM

Susanne, Bryn Terfel (probably not spelt right) sang "Rule Britannia" at the "Last night of the proms" a few years back......

he sang it in Welsh, and dressed in a Welsh rugby shirt.....

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 01:14 PM

The problem with the second verse of "I vow to Thee", or what I thought back when I decided not to sing it again, was that heaven was heavenly in that it resembled England, whereas, getting a bit C. S. Lewis-ey, I would want references to England being worthy of passionate support because it resembles heaven (and I don't mean naturally, but in its people and what they do). I think it puts the last first. And I don't intend to never question any demands made on me by anyone. Since the dearest and the best to anyone must be other people, the country should not demand that one sacrifices them. I should not be expected to love my country simply because I was born here, but because it stands for something worthy of love. Love is for people, not nebulous concepts of nationality. In the traditions of William Blake, the Levellers, and the plethora of visionaries from the Middle Ages on, for example, it does. In many others, it does not. I ain't falling for no old lies about it being a sweet and fitting thing to die for the fatherland.

Its a lovely tune, and the words are seductive - it used to be one of my favourites.

I rather like "Turn back O man" - it's not British particularly. I know there are some which are, but I'm busy, so I might not be able to find them. Somthing to the tune of the old imperial Russian anthem, I seem to remember. We didn't sing them in church, more's the pity.

Penny

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 01:44 PM

"I vow to thee my country" is not a hymn I've ever been too aware of - I've never seen it in any Catholic hymn book, and they're the ones I'm familiar with. (We've got God of Eaeth and Altar of course)

So it doesn't have many associations for me. When I've heard it on the box the words tend to get drowned out by the music.

So I come at it cold, as it were. And I can't see anything in it about demands being made by the country, just about willing sacrifice, which is a different thing. Of course in the context of a country imposing mass conscription at the time, that's a bit ironic. But a poem or song also exists outside it's immediate historic context.

As for England as Heaven - there's nothing specifically English about the text. The only thing that makes it feel English maybe is the tune with its assocations.

And I think what CS Lewis would probably say would be that we love places (and people) because of the qualities in them which are heavenly, and that by necessity we envisage heaven in terms of the places and people we love.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: alison
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 09:21 PM

"I vow to thee my country" is also known as "Thaxted" and is part of "Jupiter" from Holst's "The Planet Suite"... great tune....

so was it a hymn first, or did someone add the words later?

slainte

alison

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 05:52 PM

This spring the choir I'm in sang both Elgar's Coronation Ode (1902) which ends with Land of Hope and Glory and Parry's Jerusalem. Given we're in the US, it was an interesting program. Another movement about dying on the battlefield when you don't hear the incoming round was really weird.

The information and words posted & at the other web site did not match what I recalled from our concert. I've found another web page with more details about the music and 2 sets of words. Both words by A.C. Benson also 1902.

http://www.elgar.org/3corona.htm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 06:06 PM

So I'm new here. Here it is again http://www.elgar.org/3corona.htm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 07:11 AM

I agree with you about Lewis, Kevin - I think that was what I was struggling to say.

And if the country is seen as the people, the first verse is OK too. But there is a strand in English political feeling which makes the country something separate - Portillo, sometime before the election was talking about the economy as if it was separate from the people, and more important than them. I have been tending to pick that up in the verse.

Penny

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: GUEST,Passing Stranger
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 08:08 AM

The Planets Suite by Gustav Holst predated the use of the tune for a hymn by at least ten years. I read that Holst was no more enthused about the adaptation than Elgar.

Another secular tune appropriated by the religious lobby is Eric Coates' "Dam Busters" march.

Why should the God-squad have all the good tunes.

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel!"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 08:13 AM

"Dam Busters" - the only words I've ever heard to this are "Da-daa-da daa-da-da daa" and so forth.

Can't improve on that. They are the ideal words for a patriotic song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Snuffy
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 11:07 AM

Apparently Jerusalem has been adopted by the England soccer team as its anthem for Euro2000. Some guy wrote to the newspapers that it's a lousy anthem because:

The first verse is just a list of questions - and the answer to all of them is "NO"

The second verse is just a list of commands - and the answer to all of them is "GET THEM YOURSELF"

Personally I like it, but wonder what it all means.

Wassail! V

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: Lanfranc
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 06:42 PM

Ah, there's the rub!

Blake, were he alive in recent years, would have been more of an Allen Ginsberg than a John Betjeman. I have often chuckled at the thought of elderly ladies (such as those who gave Blair a handbagging earlier this week) singing along merrily to a song whose lyrics were so questionable. I vaguely remember that Monty Python did a sketch where "Jerusalem" was sung standing in a tea chest, which made about as much sense as anything else to do with the song/hymn/anthem (call it what you will).

Obviously the lyrics mean something, but like "Green Grow the Rushes O" or "MacArthur Park", isn't it just better to accept them as a felicitous marriage of words and music.

It's probably got one of the best intros of all time, great fun to bash out on the piano.

As for "Land of Hope and Glory", both the hope and the glory are somewhat faded these days, as Britain descends to being a glorified theme park, interspersed with factories building Japanese cars from kits. Almost anyone can beat us at the games we invented. It has about as much contemporary relevance as the Agincourt song... but I suppose it keeps some people happy.

And, yes, the Dam Busters March is sung as a hymn - to singularly unmemorable words!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 07:05 PM

"Obviously the lyrics mean something" - here's what (well the first verse anyway)

The vision I get when I hear "Land of Hope and Glory" is of a ship sinking, with the Captain saluting as he goes down with his ship. Literally I mean - I think it must have been used that way in a film some time.

Duringn the Thatcher years, I used to loathe it,epecially the last night of the proms. But now it seems tongue in cheek, good fun.

"Jerusalem", in contrast, has a real undiminished charge to it. If you were going to do the Marseilleise scene in Casablanca in an English context, you couldn't do it with "God Save the Queen" or "Land of Hope and Glory" - but you could with "Jerusalem".

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: The Shambles
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 07:25 PM

Billy Connelly suggested the National Anthem should be the theme from The Archers.

Land of Hope and Glory is the best example of folk singing the first line of a song with much 'gusto' only to hear the song die away to an embarrassed silence, as it is realised that no one else knows the words either. A factor much magnified under the influence of strong drink.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Land of Hope and Glory
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 07:42 PM

Ah Shambles, you get us back to the puzzle implied in the headlines. I might never sing it, but I couldn't help but know the whole chorus anyway.

You know, I think it's a hopeful sign, when you think of it. England was the first country to be conquered by the British Empire, and it will be the last to be liberated, and that process is well under way.