Americans

Subject: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 09:35 AM

America versus the rest of the world seems to be a frequent mud-topic. CBC radio just had a segment on a radio show that the late Gordon Sinclair's did at the end of the Vietnam War. Although many of Sinclair's values clash with my own weltanschaung, he did a good job presenting specifics that deflate fluffy nationalistic generalizations.

Several people, including Sinclair turned the radio show into records with music. (It was reviewed on a music history segment today on the CBC by a guy whose name escapes me, but, I hold a grudge against him. He once told a story about Elvis in the studio saying something that inspired Otis Blackwell to write 'Return to Sender.' I wrote to the show pointing out that an Otis Blackwell interview that is probably in the CBC archieves has Blackwell claiming that he never met Elvis. I see no reason why Blackwell would lie. Actually, the CBC guy's name is Jack Batten. I never heard Batten retract the mis-information. Has there ever been an Otis Blackwell thread?)

Anyway, since Sinclair's writing/song/talk was copyrighted by Socan and since Hairy Foxes slink around, I will only quote a few paragraphs for rewiew purposes:

________________

http://www.phillytalkradioonline.com/usa.html

Original page link where this material comes from "The Americans" (hear the original audio in RealAudio format)

"LET'S BE PERSONAL" Broadcast June 5, 1973 CFRB, Toronto, Ontario

Topic: "The Americans"

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since 1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least-appreciated people in all the earth.

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the Yangtse. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans did.

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,James
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 10:44 AM

I am not sure what the point is here...but Britain incurred the "debris" of debt at the end of the second war largely because She stood alone in Europe for four years before the Americans arrived. Her stalwart allies and defenders were the countries of the commonwealth, all of who gave disproportionately to the war effort...I am tired of that America saved us all thing about the war... I do notdisagree that Americans are a kind and generous people and that their country has provided aide around the world...but not all of it is without self interest. Also, they have often gotten mired down in foolish wars and managed to take other countries into the fray with them... Australia to Vietnam, Canada and others to Korea..... Gordon Sinclair may have been a good broadcaster but he is a bad historian.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Gervase
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:02 AM

Do not refresh

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:08 AM

Is it my imagination, or wasn't Sinclair's whole (musical) editorial re-printed in another thread here just a couple of months ago?

Suggestions for future threads:

"Estonians, what is it with them?"

"Why are Bangladeshians so skinny?"

"Are (some) Mudcatters becoming "Header-challenged?"

Hey Bbc, I think you got out just in time!

Rick

Subject: RE: Americans
From: DADGBE
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:44 AM

Wasn't it Lenny Bruce who said something like,"Let's all get together in brotherhood and peace and understanding with good will and charity for all and go kick the sh*t out of the Armenians"?

Subject: RE: Americans
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:18 PM

I don't know, but we did just hash over the Sinclair stuff. I'm also tired of making jokes to keep the xenophobia down. Flattop, I like ya', but I didn't get the point of this one either. We've had plenty of pros and cons on the US and lately a lot of other countries. I hate to post to this simply because it brings it back up to the top, but can't we talk about folk traditions in "X" country or something?

Good topics Rick......Let's start with "Why Albanians Tend To Be Pants Pressers" first and get to Estonia a bit later. I don't think we can cover Bangladesh in a single thread....probably a two-parter.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:27 PM

How come Martians are so damned illusive? Do they have a problem with the rest of us? Are they like stuck up or something? Do they like think they're shit don't smell? Den (sorry)

Subject: RE: Americans
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:30 PM

Damn Den, you're SO right!!!! And I'm getting real tired of that shit we keep taking from Uranus too.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Áine
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:34 PM

Den and 'Spaw, you all are so right on! Don't even get me started on those stuckup folks from Pluto -- even though they don't seem to associate with us plebians, don't you know . . . them and their effing caves . . .

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Willie-O
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:37 PM

When I was a 17-year-old hippie, (mid-70's) I was in Toronto walking past Frans Restaurant when this weird little guy accosted me from a doorway. He was short, plump, bald and wore a colourful bowtie making him look like a caricature of an ice-cream vendor. I was wearing extravantly patched jeans, and that was what he started talking to me about.

"Hey, I just want to know," he said, "Aren't those pants just a sign saying 'I don't work for a living'?"

We had a short, spirited and relatively friendly chat. What was really on his mind that night was some now-obscure parliamentary maneuvering taking place between the federal Liberal government and the balance-of-power NDP party (those were the days eh), such that the NDP had pressured the Grits into doing something to control the oil market (might even have been the National Energy Program, I dunno). His sophisticated interpretation of the deeper meaning of all this was that Canada had just "crossed the line and become a Communist country."

That was my encounter with Gordon Sinclair. Strange little dude, a purveyor of anecdotal ideology such that you can't really take him seriously. Wonder what he'd think of the way things have been going in this province (Ontario, which has twice elected the most hardline right-wing government of any Canadian province) lately.

The monologue "The Americans" which flattop quotes part of, actually became a top-40 AM radio hit. Well, so did "The Ballad of Lt. William Calley".

It's a funny old world...

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,Den at work
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:40 PM

Shit from Uranus, cracker 'spaw. Wouldn't have minded meeting some of those women from Venus when I was single, especially the ones that guested on Star Trek. Den

Subject: RE: Americans
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:42 PM

And what about those freakin' Mercurians......Hot-tempered, fiery little bastards.....probably because they're from such a pissant planet.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,Penny S.
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 12:48 PM

As for the Andromedans - you really, really don't want to go there!

Penny

Subject: RE: Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 01:23 PM

Nothing against the real Americans. It's those riff-raff from Europe who've been going over there for the last few centuries who screw the place up. I reckon they should all go back where they came from.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: bbelle
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:49 PM

You know what ... none of this has anything to do with music ... yes, bbc did get out just in time. If you want to discuss music or even political activism, stay, otherwise, devise a chat room for yourself and make that your future headquarters, and be sure to invite anyone else who persists in this drivel.

moonchild

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Áine
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:51 PM

Quite right, Kevin -- When does the next plane leave - my passport's still current! *BG* Now the big question is, will it be Derry, Donegal or Cork??

-- Áine

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 03:08 PM

For those with anti-American feeling, I have just noticed what looks to be a new newsgroup called free.americans.suck which sounds as if should provide a more suitable playgroud than Mudcat - perhaps even better, both sides would like to go over there and battle it out and leave this place to those of us who are getting increasingly sick of the xenophobia.

Jon

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 04:53 PM

My point, James, was that I thought that unqualified, specific, appreciations for Americans was a refreshing contrast to some of the petty crabbing that I read on Mudcat. I had hoped that others would write about their unqualified appreciation of specific things Americans had done. Perhaps I overestimated mudcatters around the world. Silly me.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:02 PM

Rick,

You were right, Sinclair's piece was discussed in April. Please accept my apologies. Although I like to jump in and have fun writing, I don't read every thread. I don't have time. To tell you the truth I haven't even found time to read the FAQ to see if I'm supposed to read every thread before posting a weak, inoffensive message.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:06 PM

It seems quite a goodnatured thread so far, most of the time anyway.

(And I don't like explaining things that don't need explaining - but just in case: the point I was making is that a lot of the things people from Europe dislike about Anericans are just reflections of the things about Europeans that need to be disliked. And vice-versa.)

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:22 PM

For example, I have an unqualified appreciation for Leo Fender.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:27 PM

Sorry flattop, I genuinely could not see the point of what your were saying although I did fear that it was likely to spark of another war of words. My response was as a result of the many American's are... threads and was not intended as a go at you. I was puzzled by your post but I have read too many of your previous posts to believe that you would be intentionally causing trouble.

Appreciation of American's: Sure they have poured money into things but regardless of nations, I am alway's cynical over the motives of governments and would like to comment on a pesrsonal level instead.

When I first started on my internet adventures about year ago, I will openly admit that through igorance and stupidity on my part, I had a very dim view of Americans but i began discussing music, then entered into personal correspondence with some and realised how wrong and unfair my preconieved ideas were.

Last Christmas, I was sent some candy by an American FRIEND. I have also been sent a microphone and a tape of Cajun music by others. I am hoping to visit a friend over there next year who has kindly offered to put me up. I have had other American's who have asked me to call and say hello if I can when I get over there...

I reckon my conclusion, at least as far as the Americans I have had personal commuication with is concered, is that I have found them very friendly and sincere people and I LIKE Americans.

Jon

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:44 PM

Thanks Jon.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 05:49 PM

Mooningchild,

Sinclair's record was played on CBC Radio's Musical Almanac this morning. On the record, Sinclair read an edited version of his original essay with 'The Battle Hymn of the Republic' playing in the background. The performing rights were registered by SOCAN. I had hoped that these qualifications would allow 'I Love America' to run the quarter miles as a pedigreed Mudcat musical topic but I may have eaten too many dried out racetrack pizzas and spent too long at the two dollar window. You seem to have a higher standard. Could you please explain?

Subject: RE: Americans
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:20 PM

Flattop,

Don't worry about it too much. There are plenty of raw tempers flaring at the slightest brush, and for that, please forgive the greater "we".

I actually picked up the meaning of the original post, and would like to add my own "things that are good about America".

We've got one hell of an interesting musical tradition. Inasmuch as "the melting pot" relating to society is a bit on the rocky side, musically, the American tradition is (IMHO) fascinating. It's been likened to a sausage grinder - pour a few hundred cultures and their traditions in one side, and watch what comes out the other. It has it's downside, but on the whole I think it's been positive.

There. Something to discuss that is ALL about the music. Let's go.

M

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:41 PM

Who's worried Sean? I'm just having fun.

How about Rosanne Cash as a great American? If I was pope, I'd make her a saint just for singing Rodney Crowell's 'No Memories Hanging Round.' Do you think they committed unnatural act with the reverb on that song? I can't believe the heavenly sound they got out of the mix.

I'm getting computer crashes today. Murphy's law that it would be on a day that I stirred things up.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 06:52 PM

To revert to my previus post, there are two things you can be doing when you look in a mirror - you can be looking critically to see what's not quite right; or you could be looking admiringly. The former is a healthier attitude, but it means the image in the mirror might get its feelings hurt, except images in mirrors don't have feelings to be hurt.

But when we use America as a mirror for our own potential and actual imperfections,the image does have feelings.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 07:10 PM

I've been catching up on some great things, Flattop... have ye heard Emmylou Harris doing "Hobo's Lullaby"? While not the original, I think she does a damn fine job with it. Roseanne Cash does some good material, but I'd almost say that Johnny Cash deserves sainthood too along with her. (saw him play a few years ago, and he still does a GREAT show. And this is at an amusement park gig).

That's the kind of stuff I love... it's the songs that have elements from two or three musical traditions that have been fused together into a new tradition. Maybe that's what the American folk tradition is... Hey, it worked to create Rock 'n' roll!

M

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 07:29 PM

I haven't heard Emmylou Harris do that one but she is great. Johnny too, at times, but, your suggestion shakes up our whole theory of sainthood. If it's a gene thingy with Rosanne and Johnny, does it deserve sainthood. This gets into the freewill debate. Didn't the dark age scribes scribble down a resolution to that dilemma?

Subject: RE: Americans
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 07:37 PM

Hmmm... have to check my references, but I think it basically came down to "to heck with it, why not?".... The Emmylou number is a remake of the old Leadbelly/Guthrie version (I believe. I could be wrong. Or right. good song in either case)

M

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 08:39 PM

As an American, the Hobo's Lullaby was a Woody Guthrie tune. And I agree, Emmylou Harris did a marvelous job on it. Johnny Cash a saint? Count me in for that vote. Saint John the gravel-voiced or even better, Saint John the Dark. All we have to do now is gett the pope to go for it. Unless of course we declare that he is a mudcat saint.. There is an idea that has merit. Everybody have a good noight, Neil

Subject: RE: Americans
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 08:51 PM

"The Saint In Black"... I like it...

M

Subject: RE: Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 08:52 PM

A saint is someone who's made it to heaven, so it's a bit early for this pair. A Mudcat Saint would be someopne who's made it to Mudcat Heaven, and I suppose we could have different rules and lets in the living.

Mudcat Heaven might be an interesting idea. (Here's a link to a song I did which ends up in Irish heaven.)

Radical thread drift under way...

Subject: RE: Americans
From: SeanM
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 08:57 PM

Well, we had a Mudcat religion a while ago... might as well splinter off a new faction! All hail Pope Woody! **BG**

M

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 10:03 PM

And I don't think the pope is supposed to get a woody.

(I'm having computer problems tonight so it's hard to defend my foolishness.)

Subject: RE: Americans
From: SeanM
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 12:47 AM

Never defend! Never explain!

Just keep the music going. I'll be working on my next dissertation where I try to fit Frank Zappa, Duke Ellington, Merle Haggard and Danny Elfman all into the same sentence...

M

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 01:07 AM

As happens occasionally, I re-think one of my postings. No offence meant Flattop. I apologise. On the other hand, as I ALWAYS do when something strikes me as silly, I tried to use humour to make my point. That's my way of saying that if I ever get REALLY angry about something on Mudcat...I'd better question the amount of time I'm spending on the computer....and whether it's balanced with flesh and blood relationships.

I was only ticked off at your HEADER since so many people have been using similar ones lately. They get some people's blood boiling, and often I think that's the aim. Ninety percent of the time the following posts are either thoughtful or humourous....which is of course why I DO stay. I think the percentage of Xenophobes, bigots and bored flamers is still pretty low here. I know that wasn't what you had in mind.....so, sorry big guy. (you ARE a guy, aren't you?)

Rick

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Racer
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 01:43 AM

America's cultural diversity is probably the main reason for America's position today. Our cultural diversity is greater than anywhere else in the world. So many people in this country have so many different ways of thinking of things. Coming up with solutions to problems is easy under such cinditions.

Americans as individuals are strange. We tend to ignore people until they establish themselves as being important to our little circle of things that we value. For some reason, we tend to wait to see what someone has to offer before accepting him/her into our lives. We are a very untrusting people.

I love America. I see nice people all the time here. I have noticed that I have to be nice and polite many times before recieving kindness in return. I used to think that was the way of the world. The internet has taught me differently.

Apparently, there are places in the world where I can go into a bar and order a beer, come back the next day, and they will not only remember what kind of beer I drink, but they'll remember my name. Not just because I told them my name, becaused they asked me my name. I'm through ranting.

American people are great, you've just got to get to know them first.

-Racer

Subject: RE: Americans
From: GUEST,flattop
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 04:59 AM

No offense taken, Rick. I realized that I was getting echos from older threads. I will read what people wrote about Sinclair on those threads when I get the time. However, I did have computer problems yesterday. I reloaded Windows 98 and got up at 4:30 this morning to catch up on what I should have done for today. I may not be reading Mudcat again before the weekend.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 08:43 AM

"I'll be working on my next dissertation where I try to fit Frank Zappa, Duke Ellington, Merle Haggard and Danny Elfman all into the same sentence..." - well, you just did it there.

And racer: "Apparently, there are places in the world where I can go into a bar and order a beer, come back the next day, and they will not only remember what kind of beer I drink, but they'll remember my name. " - I strongly suspect that some of those places are elsewherer in the United States.

Really making general statements about a place as big and varied as the States is chancing it a bit. Imagine doing the same thing about Europe. "My God" you might say after going into a bar, in say Tipperary, "aren't these Europeans the friendliest people in the world. But if you'd been on a trip to (name the place yourself) you'd be saying "What a miserable mean lot of bastards these Europeans all are".

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Willie-O
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 09:19 AM

Actually, Irish sergeant, "Hobo's Lullaby" was written by a fellow named Goebel Reeves.

Generally speaking, generalizations bite. This notion of the "melting pot" of American culture may lead inevitably to the misconception that they all end up the same, characterized as a bunch of gun-toting rednecks.

Fact is, the melting pot never really did exist, thank God, and there is astonishing cultural diversity in the U.S, just as there is incredible geographic diversity. But the adoption of this metaphor has IMHO harmed the American psyche by promoting this notion of cultural assimilation as the norm and the only true American way.

But why shouldn't the pope get an old wood-sided station wagon? He should surf if he wants to.

Yours, eh, Woody-O
I mean Willie-O

Subject: RE: Americans
From: robroy
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 09:42 AM

What I find endearing and amusing about Americans is their uncontrolable urge to explain the punch line of their jokes or nod at the appropriate moment to laugh.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: sledge
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 10:00 AM

It has been my pleasure to visit the U.S. on many occaisions and have always been well recieved and entertained often only the briefest of introductions (except by a certain immigration Nazi at Minneapolis airport). All it takes is a little effort to be pleasant and realise you are no longer at home but in another country.

I have enjoyed an enourmous diversity of music and while still not a blues fan as such spent an entire night at a blues venue in Chicago called the Kingston Mines, I didn't want to leave. I was taken there by an "American" I had met only an hour or so before.

So don't just run them down, go there, get to know them and enjoy whats on offer.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: sledge
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 10:03 AM

It has been my pleasure to visit the U.S. on many occaisions and have always been well recieved and entertained often only after the briefest of introductions (except by a certain immigration Nazi at Minneapolis airport). All it takes is a little effort to be pleasant and realise you are no longer at home but in another country.

I have enjoyed an enourmous diversity of music and while still not a blues fan as such spent an entire night at a blues venue in Chicago called the Kingston Mines, I didn't want to leave. I was taken there by an "American" I had met only an hour or so before.

So don't just run them down, go there, get to know them and enjoy whats on offer.

Subject: RE: Americans
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 05:10 PM

"A certain immigration Nazi at Minneapolis airport".

Takes me back. Do they still ask you right out "Are you travelling with the intention of seeking to overthrow the government of the United States?"

Did they ask everybody that back in 69? Or just people who looked like they might be hippies? It was very tempting to say "Yes, if the chance arises", but I thought better of it. Immigration officers don't have any sernse of humour on duty in any country.(And since my stay in the States by pure chance included going to Woodstock, maybe it would have been a truish answer in the event...)

Subject: RE: Americans
From: Grab
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 08:26 AM

Jasper Carrott (I think) did a standup routine on that, McGrath.

"Are you, or have you ever been, a Communist?"
"Da, comrade."

Grab.