BS: There's no word for it... II

Subject: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Pene Azul
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 02:30 PM

This is the continuation of BS: There's no word for it...

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 07 Jun 00 - 11:25 PM

Barbara, BARBARA!!! -

Does your book tell anything about from what those words are derived from in the according language?

Remember 'Korinthenkacker': That is german. The word is composed of two other words you won't understand if you don't know german. First 'Korinthen' - 'currants' in english (thanks, PA). 'Kacken' is an expression a little less improper (?) than 'scheissen' = 'to sh*t' (? I am still not sure that a verb like this really exists in english but you'll understand what I mean). Now imagine, you go to the toilet and the result of the work you are normally doing there has turned into something similar to currants. You will be worried. Now think of somebody who considers such to be quite normal. Map this into the general output you and he is giving to the world. You will realize that you are disgusted of somebody like him who only sees and therefore produces details. And now try to find a word that describes all of this, also you being disgusted. That word is a good word - in german.

What I mean is that if you want to have an expression like this in english, do not adopt 'Korinthenkacker' but understand its meaning and translate it to your own language. Then find a word for it in your own language being in some similar way self-explaining and adopt that. Adopt a new foreign concept you have understood, do not introduce a new foreign word for something that might be taken to be a known concept.

Maybe 'currant shitter' will do the job - maybe not.

Another example is 'plunderbund' - DELICIOUS! I suppose you don't know that a german who knows a little english can almost understand dutch - finding the expressions used there very funny. 'Plunderbund' is not a german word but can be understood to be one and then it HITS what is meant. I don't know, how to translate 'Plunder' correctly: In my dictionary i find 'gewgaw' and 'trash'. 'Bund' is (here) a kind of holy expression for an alliance (alliance for life = matrimony / 'LebensBUND' = 'Ehe'). So translate 'plunderbund' to something like 'trash matrimony' - maybe you'll understand why I AM amused.

Because of this I am very interested in the background of the words you tell us. That would be the real key to them - although simply naming concepts other languages have words for is more that I can expect from about 95% of what I am currently experiencing as 'the world'. So if your book provides any further explanations, please add them.

Love, Joerg

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Barbara
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 02:33 AM

Each of the words comes with a long explanation, Joerg. I opted for typing in the short definition and posting a bunch of words, rather than just a few. I think the book is still in print (hint, hint). Did you want the whole nine yards on Korinthenkacker? That might get us close to the definition, hey?
Are you saying we should all stick to our own languages and create new expressions in them to cover the missing concepts?
I see nothing wrong with English speakers transliterating a German word into English, but I also think it is fine to use the German language word. I like the way it makes people international. I enjoy hearing expressions in other languages woven into our speech. Works for me. If it doesn't work for you, don't do it.
English, German and Dutch are all germanic languages, so they have many words in common. In English, plunder (n.) means stolen goods or spoils of conquest, and the verb form means to rob or steal; pillage. Here the word comes across as "alliance/company of thieves."

I like the way you can string nowns together in German to make new, longer nouns. English doesn't do that.
Also, what makes a particular expression work is the way it sounds. "Attaccabottoni" sounds better to me than "buttonholer".
My mother always called that string that hangs off your cuff or hem a trolley-wagger, and I was grown up before I realized the word comes from that long electric connecting cable and bar on a trolley car -- the one that can be pulled down to disconnect the car from the overhead power lines. I don't know how the word translates into other languages, but I suspect it loses something.

Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 08:12 AM

Barbara, the (British) English word for trolley-wagger is "boom", from the nautical usage, but originally from baum, meaning beam, tree, pole, or whatever (beam and tree used to be interchangeable in English for both meanings). I think trolley-wagger is much better, though! (We used to have trolley buses: double-deckers with two booms)

Joerg, there is an English word 'cack', whith the meaning you refer to. There's also "poppycock", meaning nonsense, from the Dutch word pappekack, meaning soft sh*t (as I'm sure you can work out from German!).

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Brendy
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 08:18 AM

"Seacht mbucáid cac ar do cheann"

Old Irish greeting concerning faeces and the depositing thereof on your head.

B.

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 01:07 PM

Barbara, when you ask "Are you saying we should all stick to our own languages and create new expressions in them to cover the missing concepts?" - my answer is not that we should stick to our own languages, but that it enriches a language to add new terms in a different - not better, not worse, just different - way than borrowing existing ones from other tongues. I actually agree with either - I like the international flavor of borrowings across languages, but I'm also impressed when new terms can be created from within a language. Take the Zuni, for instance, who got big-time into photography and then coined terms for EVERYTHING - lenses, exposures, any term you can think of, without borrowing any of it from English. Too cool.

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 08 Jun 00 - 09:43 PM

Barbara - too sad that the explanations in your book are that long (so are my postings, I'm a little concerned about that). *sigh* Nevertheless - can you imagine to give at least some short explanation of where a word comes from? Only if you understand it at once, of course, nobody can expect you to type in things which are only text to you.

Yes, the second possible meaning of 'plunderbund' also came to my mind. In german there is 'Plunder' ('trash') and 'pluendern' (with an umlaut ue, 'to plunder'), derived from the same root but with different meanings. So 'alliance/company of plunderers' would have to be 'Pluenderbund' - no sound, no charm at all. In german there is already a word for something that: 'Lumpenpack' (actually 'bunch of rags' but 'Lumpen' can be one or several rags but also several rascals, a single one is a 'Lump', referring to some property of character rather than to a special kind of crime). In german there is also 'kunterbunt' which means something like 'extremely mixed' ('bunt' = 'of many colors', 'kunter' = nothing, nonsense just giving a funny sound). 'Lumpenpack'? Fine, but 'Plunderbund' really kicks its ass, first of course because of its sound but also because of the contrast between the lax 'Plunder' and the honorable 'Bund' which I can't translate into english.

Do I understand you right that a 'trolley-wagger' is a loose thread caused by careless sewing? Never knew that there is a special word for that. BTW do you know what 'widows' and 'orphans' are? A widow is the last line of a paragraph appearing on the following page, an 'orphan' is the first line of a paragraph left on the previous page. The german words for these are 'Hurenkind' = 'whore's child' (not to be confused with 'Hurensohn' - aren't there daughters of b*s?) and 'Schusterbub' or 'Schusterjunge' = 'shoemaker boy', sometimes used as an example of uncouth (I'm learning) behaviour. When the documentations of the first desktop publishing programs were translated into german the translators didn't know that and soon german typographic staff was wondering what 'Witwen' (wives with dead husbands) and 'Waisen' (children with dead parents) should have to do with printing. That's what happens when you give peculiar names to common things. Since I first heard that story I am sometimes wondering myself what difference in character makes some people associate single lines on pages with some kind of loneliness and others with some kind of indecency, indelicacy.

Steve - Now I must ask everybody for an english translation for the german word 'GEIL!!!' to comment your posting. 'Geil' means 'horny' or 'randy' but in german its meaning has been extended to an expression for great enthusiasm: Not simply 'cool' but something that really makes you WAKE UP as you are awake when you are 'horny'. I knew what 'poppycock' is but it was a simple piece of vocabulary to me, something you simply have to learn by heart when learning a foreign language. But with your explanation of course... In german geberally 'papp-' means 'stick-' ('pappig' = 'sticky'), not 'soft', but that doesn't matter. What matters is how much we have to blame ourselves of making it that hard to understand each other.

Brendy, BRENDY!!! - Don't make me cry. One of the languages I really would love to know is gaelic. Not only because of its sound that is much more beautiful to me than e.g. the sound of italian which many people tell me to be beautiful (sorry to all italians) and the songs written in gaelic. It's also because I have the impression that this language might be still richer than any one I know until now. So when I see people writing gaelic to each other I always feel kind of excluded from something that is beautiful. There is an very nice austrian song illustrating feelings like these. Its title translates to something like 'I simply can't watch' (if I didn't have to I could easily stand it). Can you imagine its content?

Mrr - What you are telling about the Zuni: WHAT STORY IS THAT? I don't know anything about it.

Joerg

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 03:42 AM

Joerg, it occurs to me that "bund" has an English equivalent in "-hood"; for example, brotherhood (= broederbund? forgive my attempts at a language I don't actually know!), widowhood = witwebund, I guess. I'd better stop before I make a pig's ear (= a real mess) of things!

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 08:04 AM

Steve - 'bund' in what language do you mean? I always took '-hood' as being one of the english suffices used to make a new noun out of some other word ('-ment', '-((i)t)y', '-kind' etc). In german there are '-heit' (-hood), '-keit', '-schaft', '-ei' and others, all of them kind of generalizing the word in question and so indeed also describing something like a community. E.g. 'widowhood' = 'Witwenschaft' can in german be understood as a community ('Bund') of widows (it isn't) as well as the property or the state of being a widow (that's the meaning). But there is a connection I didn't notice before.

Joerg

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: L R Mole
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 10:03 AM

Look up "pumpernickel", you wanna spoil your next deli experience. Also, I assume this has been mudcatted before, but the whole matter is insanely complicated by words only families know and use (there's a book on this called Family Words but I can't remember the author's name just now). "Glop", meaning hot roast beef sandwiches on toast, was one I coined as a younker.

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Gervase
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:05 PM

To recap from way back; there is nearly always a word for it, it's just that our vocabularies have shrunk over the years - (mounts soapbox and gets into ranting old fart mode) for many reasons:
* We live in a postliterate society where the visual has more impact than the verbal;
* The decline in the teaching of Latin and Greek means that fewer children are aware of how much of their langauge is put together;
* We live in a standardised world where nuances and subtleties of vocabulary are no longer needed. If I have a Ford car, I can order any part by simply quoting a number to any dealer. If I have a broken cart, I need to speak the wheelwright in his own terms.
There is even, probably, a name for the back of the knee. And Helen, btw, there is an antonym for forte - it's foible.

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Barbara
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 12:55 PM

Poplitea, I think, Gervase. At least, the crease in the back of the knee, in medical nomenclature, is the popliteal fold.
Blessings,
Barbara

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: GUEST,Gervase
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 01:04 PM

Barbara, you are a wonder. Thank you for that - now I know there IS a name for the back of the knee (The best my kids ever came up with was 'kneepit')!

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Micca
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 01:30 PM

Barbara, Re-Korinthenkacker'
I think the English equivelent phrase is probably " nit picker" or "nit picking" as the nit is a flea's egg and manually picking them from hair was a finicky job especially suited to Korinthenkackers

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 05:51 PM

Gervase, knee pit seems somewhat more appropriate, and memorable than the other name, I think I'll keep that one.

Phoebe (4yrs old and pedantic) came up with a totally logical leg pit, for her "parts" at one point, now she calls it her minnie..... does that make daddy's a mickey?

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Mrrzy
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 06:09 PM

I have a (now) funny story about a hetero woman unjustly accused of sexual harassment by her hetero male boss whom she did, indeed, adore, but not THAT way. She complained to a friend about it, and he told her that she should have responded as follows:

Poppycock! I don't want one inch of your popyycock!

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 28 Jun 00 - 10:15 PM

With some reference to the 'worst new words' thread: May I axe you a question?

Do you know an adjective like "wapsy" in english (derived from a noun like "waps" (singular))? Can you imagine the meaning?

BTW - the german original is also an 'extension' of the language but I don't object to things like these. They're funny and I love them when - like in this special case - they really have some meaning you can't find anywhere else in the language in question (or even in any language you know).

Joerg

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Pene Azul
Date: 29 Jun 00 - 01:26 AM

Joerg, if you mean "waspy," it derives from an acronym: white Anglo-Saxon Protestant (W.A.S.P.).

PA

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: GUEST,Joerg
Date: 01 Jul 00 - 11:39 PM

No other guess?

Well, PA and all of you, I think I also have to apologize. The explanation is a little complicated:

I am reading the 'worst words', 'language larfs' etc threads with much interest and fun and there is much that comes to my mind when I do. When I read of 'axe' for 'ask' ... ROTF, believe me. But these threads cope with english and I don't want to interfer with things that only refer to my own native tongue - german.

Now - I am living in a region of Germany that is called Bavaria and this region is not only famed for its beer but also (to germans) for its dialect. To many germans it is really difficult to understand it i.e. it is not just an accent but really something like a little language with its own specific words - as e.g. the scottish dialects.

Bavarian - unlike german - is great in making adjectives from nouns in order to describe people; and one of the good ones is 'websert'. It is indeed derived from a wasp. In german 'wasp' is 'Wespe'. The 'sp' as pronounced here is kind of strange to southern german pronunciation - bavarians feel independent enough to change this to 'Webs' without any scruples - it IS easier to pronounce, especially when you suffer from some Weissbier. Exactly what happened to 'ask' (although this one maybe suffered from whiskey).

And now they take 'Webs' ('waps') for 'websert' ('wapsy' as e.g. 'noisy'). 'Websert' is sombody who is behaving like a wasp: Busily buzzing around in some nervous, hectic manner, thus annoying and irritating us until we become nervous ourselves. Don't tell me you don't know what kind of people is meant. There is no word for this in any language I know, including german.

I know that all this is kind of complicated - sorry. But I simply wanted to know what happened if I asked english speaking people what 'wapsy' might be. You know the process of creating 'websert' would work in english exactly the same way. Why hasn't it happened? Why don't you know this word? I think it is for the fact that english is a BIG language and bavarian a TINY one. If there is no word for something, create one - you'll keep your language alive. Of course you will have to create it some way that you are understood without further explanations. When someone who knows bavarian hears 'websert' he will first laugh, then nod and then use this word himself. Of course this works much easier in small languages than in big ones, and I also think that this is because small languages do not have large dictionarys. But that's a feature, not a bug.

Joerg

Subject: RE: BS: There's no word for it... II
From: Pene Azul
Date: 02 Jul 00 - 12:00 AM

Joerg, I should apologize to you. Had I read your post more carefully I would have better understood your question.

Thank you for the fascinating posts.

PA