Can white folks sing the blues?

Subject: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Jon W.
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 08:27 PM

Here's a link to an article about a white blues singer from Minnesota in the '60s that, according to the writer, sounded absolutely authentic (i.e. like he was black, from Mississippi, in the '30s). Topics of conversation: Did any of you know or hear this guy? What do you think of the writer's premise and conclusions?

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: TheOldMole
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 08:33 PM

Dave "Snaker" Ray has done work on his own, but is best known for his work with Koerner, Ray and Glover.

I'm surprised the guy chose Ray...most would have singled out "Spider" John Koerner.

These guys were OK. I have the CD reissue of their first album, and I've played it a couple of times. I like them. But they don't come close to the real thing.

Better choices would be Mose Allison...or Hank Williams...or Elvis.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,LNSlicer
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 09:16 PM

Saying that white people can't sing the blues is like saying black people can't play Mozart. It's ridiculous.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,The Invisible Blazoona
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 09:17 PM

Dave Ray is an excellent guitarist,and a very nice guy, He is one of the greatest contributors to the annual "Batle of the Jug Bands" in Mineapolis, but only a fair-to-middlin' singer. I am frankly surprised that anyone would ever mistake Ray for a Black man. I have spoken to Dave about this very subject, and about the fire that Koerner, Ray, and Glover drew 35 years ago for being white guys playing the blues. Ray says that he plays this music because he loves it and always has, and didn't care if there were any "official rules of musical purism" that say he shouldn't.

I reccomend a listen to his guitar playing to anyone who likes finger picking blues. He is the goods.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: simon-pierre
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 09:29 PM

Never heard about that guy, tough it seems very interesting.
I was just intrigued by the title of the thread. Does the blues is strictly limited to the black folks of the Mississippi in the 30's?... We'll have a lack of bluesmen in the very next years... I think that what this music has give to the patrimony is far larger than a postcard's picture of a poor bluesmen of the country with his steel guitar. That music became popular for his unviversal value, because every people on this earth could feel blue, and that everybody could sing a song on three chords and get understood by the others.
I'd like to hear that guy...

SP

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 09:42 PM

I used to enjoy Snaker's singing and playing, but that old saw about "you couldn't tell he was white" was just silly. If you listened to a lot of blues (not just the stars) it wasn't that hard to tell that Dave was white (harder to tell if he was blonde though)

Much of the mystique about the Minneapolis boys (Glover Koerner and Ray) came from the enthusiastic pen of Paul Nelson. He LOVED those guys.

The same thing happened to Dave's carreer as a celebrity as happened to all the other fine young white blues guys....the folk public's tastes changed. Real blues fans (not folkies) didn't buy their records to begin with, but stuck with the black singers.

They were good though. So was Ian Buchannan. Never liked John Hammond jr. though.

Rick

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Dale Rose
Date: 09 Jun 00 - 11:55 PM

May as well ask if black folks can sing and play country music. Fact is, they can when they want to, and some do. We had a black visitor at the Ozark Folk Center a while back who played a mean old time country style harmonica, and obviously enjoyed playing it that way, too.

Can't think of anyone I'd rather hear sing the blues than Jo Ann Kelly. Trouble is, she just never got to sing them enough. Austin and Lee Allen sure could sing the blues. Of course, they got mad and quit their record label when they issued their recordings in the Race category. But that is another story altogether.

Complete recordings of the Allen Brothers, borrowed from the handy Camsco site ~~ watch those green links pile up! Allen Brothers

DOCU 8033, Complete Recorded Works, 1927-1930, $15.69

Salty Dog Blues ~ Bow Wow Blues ~ Chattanooga Blues ~ Laughin' & Cryin' Blues ~ Ain't That Skippin' & Flyin' ~ Cheat 'em ~ Frisco Blues ~ Tiple Blues ~ Free Little Bird ~ Skipping & Flying ~ Prisoner's Dream ~ I'll Be All Smiles Tonight ~ I've Got the Chain Store Blues ~ Jake Walk Blues ~ Enforcement Blues ~ Reckless Night Blues ~ New Chattanooga Blues ~ Shanghai Rooster Blues ~ I'm Always Whistling the Blues ~ Roll Down the Line ~ Old Black Crow in the Hickory Nut Tree ~ No Low down Hanging Around ~ Maybe Next Week Sometime

DOCU 8034, Complete Recorded Works, 1930-1932, $15.69

Salty Dog Blues ~ Bow Wow Blues ~ Chattanooga Blues ~ Laughin' & Cryin' Blues ~ Ain't That Skippin' & Flyin' ~ Cheat 'em ~ Frisco Blues ~ Tiple Blues ~ Free Little Bird ~ Skipping & Flying ~ Prisoner's Dream ~ I'll Be All Smiles Tonight ~ I've Got the Chain Store Blues ~ Jake Walk Blues ~ Enforcement Blues ~ Reckless Night Blues ~ New Chattanooga Blues ~ Shanghai Rooster Blues ~ I'm Always Whistling the Blues ~ Roll Down the Line ~ Old Black Crow in the Hickory Nut Tree ~ No Low down Hanging Around ~ Maybe Next Week Sometime

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Bugsy
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 12:13 AM

I dunno, ask Dave Van Ronk, Martin Simpson, Eric Clapton, Peter Green and Joe Cocker. They may have some idea.

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Brendy
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 12:14 AM

Anybody who has experienced trauma, either in their personal life, where some great pain or injustice has move the person to words, or in their community or race, can do it.

Blues, and it's often only ever seen as a 12 bar concept, black, and American, is identifiable with any folk culture I have heard.
And if you've got pain, baby,
Go right ahead, and let those tears a-fall.

John Mayall, Sonny Terry and Brownie McGee recorded a song way back called 'White boy lost in the blues'
'White' favourites (I only use the word white, because the distinction has already been made), include:

Van the Man - playing in Oslo today
Stephan Grossman
Peter Green
Freddie White (Who? - Irish acoustic player from Cork; famous enough on this side of the water)

A few others, but I haven't had my first cup of tea yet.
Can't function without that!!

B.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Mbo
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 12:24 AM

As my ethnomusicology teacher used to say...

The Blues is not a "white thing" or a "black thing".

The Blues is a state of mind.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Brendy
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 12:31 AM

Ah, but Mbo, Isn't it much more interesting to get to that point in about 125 posts time, after exploring each and every artery?
Spoilsport!!*BG*

B.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Annabelle
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 12:54 AM

perhaps we expect a certain type of person to be playing a special kind of music, as stated many times above, but they aren't called the blacks and i dont know a persoon who looks blue. can ya dig it?

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Brendy
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:01 AM

Without sounding rascist, here, I do love to play when there's at least three black backing singers. The opportunity doesn't arise all that often, as I mostly play Trad, but the band's collective body of sound is much increased. There is something about the black female voice.

B.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: SeanM
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:07 AM

There are some recent additions in blues who are decent... Jonny Lang comes to mind. Bit more of a modern sound, but the boy (think he was 14 when his first LP came out 4-5 years ago) can play.

And hey, what about Max? To paraphrase, I may not know all that much about blues, but I knows what I likes, and he's pretty damn decent.

M

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Mbo
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:10 AM

Must go the opposite way on ya there, Brendy. I'm not into the whole "Mama" scene...I like the dudes with the killer voices, like Taj, Mississippi John Hurt, and Big Bill...maybe because I'm a guy and I like to pick up how other guys sing the blues, I don't know. Just give me a piece o' copper tubing and a guitar, and let's go to town! I also LOVE Darius Rucker from Hootie & the Blowfish..he's got such an awesome voice! And a lot of my natural voice comes from listening to them o'er & o'er again. Such a soulful voice. And the white guys in the band, when singing backup with him, create just like the PERFECT sound in the world. Check out "Desert Mountain Showdown"!

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Brendy
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:13 AM

But it's a real bummer when the guys can't hit that high F, Mb's

B.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Mbo
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:14 AM

Ah, but I like the low D's better! I'm not into high-pitched...I'm a low down bass kinda guy.

--Mbo

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Brendy
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:16 AM

Who obviously likes low down bas(e)s kind of things, right?

B.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 07:06 AM

hello all<><><><><><><.Breath through to pain and keep walking.Now sit down and play some music.I dont see any skin tone do you??? All the best Guy

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Tiger
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 07:23 AM

I especially like Dave Van Ronk, Eric Von Schmidt, John Hammond and Paul Geremia.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: black walnut
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 09:09 AM

kelly joe phelps....

~'nut

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,Gollum
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 12:46 PM

I've been booking blues bands into clubs and major festivals all over the eastern half of the U.S. for the last eight years and one thing that I can emphatically state is that blues has absolutely no race boundaries. It may have been born from slavery and the plantation songs but as someone stated above, it is a feeling, a state of mind, an experience. The black youth of today (for the most part) want nothing to do with the blues, for them it is a bitter reminder of their heritage (which is a shame) but the "black" blues artists think that the color boundaries that we the fans put up are ridiculous. I've spoken, at length with everyone from B.B. King to Luther Allison to Buddy Guy and they all welcome ANY musician, white, black or green that wants to spread the word of the blues. If it's good enough for B.B. King and the rest, it should be good enough for all of us.

Gollum

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Tiger
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:45 PM

Gollum.....

To emphasize your point, we recently saw John Hammond and Paul Geremia play at a Chinese restaurant in Woonsocket, RI. One of those statistical anomalies, I guess.

Well, really, Chan's in Woonsocket has a nice venue and brings in class acts.

Nonetheless, It makes for great storytelling.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,Judith
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:47 PM

See Saffire's song, "The Equalizer" -

Starts out - "Blues don't know no color..."

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,dickie
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 01:56 PM

is it just me that finds such questions offensive?

why not ask if asians (like yo-yo ma) can play classical music? after all, classical music belongs to white europeans.

why not ask if northern jews (like david grisman) can play bluegrass? after all, bluegrass music belongs to southern christians.

why not ask if african-americans (like don byron) can play klezmer music? after all, klezmer music belongs to jews from eastern europe.

dickie

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: mactheturk
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 02:22 PM

Don't pull my leg. Of course white folks can sing the blues. My grandaddy taught me how to sing the blues, hell he lived the blues, growin' up on the "delta", the Cincinnati Delta, and just because he was a successful real estate man don't mean he didn't know the blues.

Anyway, I'm writing a blues song right now, it's not done yet but so far it goes something like this...

"I woke up this mornin'... I noticed both my cars were gone.

Yes, I woke up this mornin'..I noticed both my cars were gone..

Well, I felt so dog-gone angry..

I threw my drink across the lawn."

I'll finish this up when I get back from the gym.

Later,

MP

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,Gollum
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 03:25 PM

More proof - Despite MP's (just above) hysterical post if you need more proof, here's your chance: I have a festival (that yes, I booked all the talent for so yes, this is a shameless promotion) that is happening next weekend (June 17th and 18th) at the 3 County fairgrounds in Northampton, Massachusetts. It is called the Pioneer Valley Blues, Brews & BBQ's Festival and it features the following "BLUES" performers: Chris Thomas King, Tab Benoit, Carey and Lurrie Bell, John Mooney, Rod Piazza and the Mighty Flyers, Kenny & Raful Neal, Irma Thomas, Lonnie Brooks & Phillip Walker & Long John hunter together known as the Lone Star Shootout, John Mayall & the Bluesbreakers, Coco Montoya, Marcia Ball, Sugar Ray and the Bluetones, Sherman Robertson & Toni Lynn Washington. Plus they'll be 8 regional acts from Mass., Conn., and New Jersey. If interested, call 413-584-2237 for info. Come to this and THEN tell me that white folks can't play the blues.

I am brand new in here so I have no idea where people are posting from, but if it is anywhere near here, hope to see you next weekend.

Gollum

Subject: mactheturk
From: GUEST,Martin Mull
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 03:36 PM

Hey mactheturk!!!

If you want to steal my material, or the licks off my records that you've learned, at least give me credit.

You never know who might be reading your messages.

MM

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Banjer
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 04:09 PM

A few post back Dale Rose said "May as well ask if black folks can sing and play country music. Fact is, they can when they want to, and some do." I was raised in the South by folks that accepted standard Southern traditions. I dind't necessarily agree with these traditions but they were a strong part of my upbringing. About 1970 I was stationed in Seoul, Korea with the 21s Transportation Co. One day myself and a couple of fellows were playing pool and listening to a record that one of them had. It was country music and I commented on what a good voice the singer had, and how his songs told a good story. Imagine the surprise in this Southern raised youngun' when I found out the guy was black!!!

Yep, Charlie Pride still sounds good today. Thinking back on it now, that may have been one of the things that taught me not to judge people on the basis of color or creed...

As for the blues, if you've lived 'em, you can sing 'em...

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: BanjoRay
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 05:35 PM

The Bonzo Dog Doodah Band used to sing:
'Can blue men sing the whites
Or are they hypocrites'
Listen to Dock Boggs when he's singing the blues - that's the real thing! And so was Joanne Kelly.
Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: mactheturk
Date: 10 Jun 00 - 06:48 PM

Martin,

OK...I'm busted, guess I can't use "SEX AND VIOLINS" as my next thread.

Your devoted fan,

Mac

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Guy Wolff
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 12:13 AM

Hi Again, There was a snappy answer after the hello above that got lost in space somewhere. Interesting , That never nappened before.. Maybe my cookie's getting stail!! All the best , Guy<><><><><>< PS If your in pain and your trying to walk it off no-one is looking at your skin tone .. If someone said I was'nt alowed to play slide guitar because the color of my skin was't right I would crummple up and expire..

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 08:10 PM

Jimmie Rodgers, Delmore Brothers, Doc Watson, Doc Boggs, Frank Hutchinson, Dick Justice and countless other white musicians could sing the blues. Check out Emmett Miller also. They may not have sung them exactly like the African-American singers but they did really sing them well. Many of these performers were accepted in the black communities as valid blues singers.

Frank

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,Mimosa in Wyoming for the summer
Date: 11 Jun 00 - 09:48 PM

I did some papers in high school & college on the blues, and the "authorities" at the time thought that white blues singers preferred a "sweeter" vocal sound than the black blues singers used. If the blues is a 12 bar form with a specific chordal pattern and lyric scheme, obviously anyone can do it who wants to. After all, Linda Ronstadt sang in an opera with Gary Morris.

If the blues is a state of mind, whoever wants to explore that can go as close to it as they can try. Just cause my daddy never came after me with a knife doesn't mean I can't try to coax the "Faggot Mormon Boy Blues" out of my 20 string dickharp.

Mimosa

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 03:29 AM

This brings back to mind a couple of great introductions by Derek Brimstone, my favourite best pal from London, (now in his late 60's) who introduces his blues by saying "Blues is normally played by young white men or old black men, and I don't seem to fit into either category!"

And when doing his wonderful "How to play the Banjo" number, "This is frailing banjo, which is supposed to have come from the Hilly Billy's in West Virginia, only the Hilly Billys in West Virginia don't play frailing banjo, that's usually done by young Jewish gentlemen from New York".

I think he covers this point quite well.

CHeers

Bugsy

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: IanC
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:36 AM

Something I've always wanted to know.

Can blue folks sing the whites?

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: TheOldMole
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 07:49 AM

I'd partly go along with Banjer's thesis that "if you've lived 'em, you can sing 'em..." except that it leaves out of account the fact that some people sing better than others, and some people can't sing at all. Perhaps it might be more accurate to say "if you haven't lived 'em, you can't sing 'em..."

And I have no problem with Frankham's list.

But just because one bunch of white boys wants to book another bunch of white boys to play at festivals for other white boys, this does not necessarily prove anything.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Croney
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 08:12 AM

Seems to me that most young black musicians are well onto other things, and that the Blues these days are usually played by white boys. Can white folks rap?

Maybe the more honoring of the truth question would be, could white people have invented the blues, or jazz, or rap, or?

Is white culture as innovative in creating new musical directions as black culture? Why?

Croney

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 08:34 AM

Eric Clapton & Paul Jones aren't the only Brits: George Melly still does a good job on Bessie Smith material in between the "bawdieville" numbers and the late Queen of the washboard, Beryl Bryden, not to mention Otillie Patterson's work with Chris Barber, before illness forced her into retirement. Denise Lawrence with Reading-based Storyville Tickle is another.
RtS ["Blues ain't nothin' but a poor workin' man feelin' bad."]

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Steve Latimer
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 10:33 AM

They don't come much whiter than the first White guy inducted into the Blues Hall of Fame, Johnny Winter, one of my favourites.

Someone metioned Joanne Kelly. I had never heard of her, I got a compilation CD of Slide guitar that she does RJ's Come on In My Kitchen. A beautiful version, I'd love to hear more of her.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,Mimosa in Wyoming for the summer
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 10:39 AM

Even though the blues came from a specifically black culture, It has roots in gospel music, which has roots in european cuture, and uses musical patterns that come from europe. It's a synthesis, like so much of american culture. Blues in the 21st century will belong to the floks it speaks to or for, and at the moment that doesn't appear to be black youth.

All of our music comes from the entire cultural situation that created it, oppressors and oppressed, young and old, traditional and innovative. To my mind the blues have entered the public domain. And, BTW, hasn't anyone mentioned Janis Joplin? Mimosa

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Jon W.
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 02:05 PM

Thanks for the comments, people. I just thought I'd stir the pot a bit.

Personally, I (of northern european-american ancestry) have been trying to sing and play the blues for years - I can do the guitar bit okay but I've yet to develop an ear for when I'm singing in tune - unlike on non-blues folk music where I can pretty well tell if I'm on or not. Why is that? It seems to me that the notes I'm supposed to sing are rarely in the chord I'm supposed to play in blues, but almost always are with other musical genres.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Fortunato
Date: 12 Jun 00 - 04:06 PM

This is the wrong question. The true question might be will YOU accept the performance of anyone except a black person as being an effective or legitimate performance of the blues. Not blues by a white person, but a legitimate performance of the blues. Only you as listener can decide about THAT perfomance.

IMHOP Fortunato (colorless, odorless, and often tasteless)

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,helix
Date: 13 Jun 00 - 03:54 PM

a white man cannot sing a black man's blues, in fact a man cannot sing another man's blues but he can sing his own blues, authenticity, that's what it's all about

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Grab
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 08:37 AM

Mimosa, you just got there b4 I did. On TV last night there was a biography of Joplin - and could she ever sing the blues...

Grab.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 11:05 AM

Bonnie Raitt is another example -- she can sing the blues with as much authority and conviction as anyone. And as far as blacks singing country, Charlie Pride isn't the only example. Anyone ever hear "Maybelline" by Chuck Berry? It's a country song, as he himself acknowledges.

I think people go off the track when they consciously try to "sound black" for the sake of somebody's notion of authenticity. Sing anything you want, in your own voice, and it's just as authentic and legitimate as what anyone else is doing, no matter what color they are. It's pretending to be what you're not that makes you a phony.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,Willie-O
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 12:55 PM

An article in Sing Out! about Henry Sapoznik reported this. Sapoznik started out with an interest in mountain music which led him to learn fiddle from the late Tommy Jarrell, a well-remembered authentic southern fiddler and teacher. Tommy Jarrell liked the young people that came his way, many of whom indeed were young Jewish men like Sapoznik, but never completely understood why they were so interested in the southern mountain music he played all his life. One day he asked Sapoznik, "Don't your people got any music of their own?", and rather suddenly Henry Sapoznik realized that they did, but he'd never thought about playing it. He went on to basically start the Klezmer revival, so you can sort of attribute that to a politically incorrect remark by an old hillbilly. Good thing he asked that awkward question!

Another incident concerning racial attitudes towards music was related by Pete Seeger. He played a long repetitive song, probably a Child ballad, in a black Southern church which prompted an elderly woman to remark, "If this is white peoples' music, I don't think much of it." When you're used to the harmony and dynamics of black gospel singing, long literary-type pieces with little variation--the kind of thing I like, sometimes--can be hard to take. One's performance of them might be improved by keeping this in mind.

I guess my point if I have one is that asking these uncomfortable questions can have surprisingly positive effects, sometimes.

Hey, was that really Martin Mull?

My cookie ain't working, but it wasn't me.

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Wesley S
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 03:52 PM

BB King must think that white folks can sing the blues. He and Eric Clapton have a duet CD coming out this week.

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: Mike Regenstreif
Date: 14 Jun 00 - 05:16 PM

Although Henry Sapoznik has certainly been a major participant in the klezmer revival, he certainly didn't start it and I don't think he'd ever make that claim.

A group in California called The Klezmorim preceded Sapoznik and his group (Kapelye) by about five years and were already quite popular at folk festivals, and were making records, when Henry was still doing old-time music.

Mike Regenstreif

Subject: RE: Can white folks sing the blues?
From: GUEST,simon
Date: 15 Jun 00 - 11:02 AM

from my understanding (and i could be wrong) blues started out as a black tradition and contained many elements of protest. so if you wanna defeat your enemy you sing his song right?