Do you play in a Police State?

Subject: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 02:35 PM

Good idea Kev!
Well, when a country puts more people in jail than any other in history (again proportionally) and the police feel inpowered to call for boycotts of artists from Ice Tea to Bruce Springstien, and there is a bloody blue uniform on every block in politcally left neighborhoods like the east village, while the police avoid really hard case neighborhoods in New York and look the other way as women are publicly sexually assaulted, but break up non-violent political marches, and we have a shoot to kill policy that the RUC would salivate over... well... what else would you call it. Yup, I play music in a police state.
Singing the truth to power
>;-0
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 02:39 PM

Time to pull out "Duncan and Brady"

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 03:14 PM

Yep, Larry, and I wanted to throw up listening, on NPR, to yet another reasoning on why we should spend millions on the "Drug War" in Columbia. If anyone has ever wondered why it doesn't seem to be working, I would highly recommend the book "Deep Cover", written by Michael Levine, 1990. Levine was a DEA group supervisor and their top international undercover agent.

Meanwhile, last night I found out that Wyoming's only prisoner of Asian descent, whom most do not think is guilty of a crime he was convicted of in 1988, is locked down in solitary for 60 days because he raised a ruckus, with sworn statements from witnesses, not all convicts, about a female guard who frisked him, made a comment as she passed over his genitals about (paraphrased)where's the beef? How else did you people populate so many millions? Then there are the disproportionate amount of police beatings among the very small minority population here, as well as the do-nothing attutude of the cops when there is a crime against people of colour.

There is still such ignorance about race here. It's a tough row to how, trying to talk with people and educate.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 03:52 PM

The traditional definition of a Police State, I suppose would be along the lines that "It is a Police State if the people in power are holding down an unwilling population, as a way of holding on to that power, and they use a police force as their tools to do it, giving the people in it unlimited licence to do whatever they think is necessary towards that end.

Well, that's not the situation in America, as I understand it. Because it seems pretty clear that most people do back up the actions of the police. And the same goes for other Western countries.

But that's not the end of the argument - because in fact you could have said the same in Nazi Germany.And that isn't to equate the two- the reason I bring in the German case is because that is the most extreme example of a repressive regime which had popular support .

So it isn't good enough to say that "people want it, so it's just democracy". And in fact the people who drew up the American Constitution were very careful to ensure that just because a majority of people wanted something, that didn't mean that they could have it, if it involved trampling on other people. (At least, that was how it was supposed to work.)

So that definition in the first paragraph should be amended to take into account that "the people in power" may in a sense be a majority of the people in a country.

And it becomes: "It is a Police State if the people who represent the majority of the population are holding down a minority in that population, as a way of ensuring the continued approval of the majority, and they use a police force as their tools do do it, giving the people in it unlimited licence to do whatever they think is necessary towards that end."

Whether the USA fits that definition is something only Americans can determine. So far as the country I'm living in is concerned, there are ominous signs of movement in that direction, with a government preoccupied in appeasing tabloid hysteria and looking for simplistic "tough" solutions to all kinds of problems - problems that have been thrown up a whirlwind of change in how we live, and how we look after each other, and how we put limits on our own behaviour and those of other people.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:16 PM

Well....

Then I guess... we who can sing... from a place of... freedom within us... are... Radio Free Human.

~S~

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM

The more misinformed the people of a democracy are, when they are beholden to a minority of power brokers for their sustenance/survival/jobs,...the more fascist does that country become. Opinions become government (in our case corporate) property, induced to keep people apart, competitive, and deadly fearful of social alienation... esp. "being different". This condition exists... and is maintained through real, OR PERCIEVED, scarcity.

So it seems to me anyway...

ttr

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Mbo
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 04:20 PM

Where's John Agar when you need him?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 05:11 PM

Hi Katlaughing:
I was intervied by Levine, he gave me an autographed copy of his book Big White Lie. Nice fellow, looks like a dark complected version of Sean Conery.
Kev's definintion is as on target as you can get, however in order to define a people's will, one has to take into account several subjective evaluations, such as freedom of information and free politic. In light of the repression of though in US schools, and the outright history of political repression from the time of the Palmer raids until 99% of political information was put in the heads of Americans by a capitolist owned and controled TV industry, it is hard to say that it is an informed concent. When you look at the number of Americans who don't vote, you realise there is a sence of hoplessness about change here, even though most Americans don't have the political education to understand why their government does not represent them. As Noam Chompsky pointed out, most Americans know more about sports then they do about their government. (and are proud of it to boot!!!)
All the best
Larry
PS Kat... Mike is a BIG guy! I'm not short, and I felt like I was tiny next to him.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 05:48 PM

Wow, Larry, that is really interesting...did he interview for White Lies? Now I will have to go get it and read it.Glad to hear he is so big, considering all of the extreme danger he's been in!

Another important book, IMO, is "Lies My Teacher Told Me" which you can find all kinds of information about by clicking here. He's even got a pop quiz which is VERY interesting, takes only a few moments.

Another new one, which you especially may be interested in Larry, is "Rethinking Columbus: The Next 500 Years", edited by Bill Bigelow and Bob Peterson, and published by Rethinking Schools in Milwaukee, WI. I have an expanded 2nd edition from 1998. Anyone who has any interest in or hope for the children of our country should find it well worth the $8. Their website is www.rethinkingschools.org.

Sorry, I know that is a bit of thread creep, but I hope it may help with balance, so we don't get too full of despair, as I was feeling last night.

Thanks,

kat

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:08 PM

Hi Kat:
No he interviewed me after he inadvertantly made a racist remark about Roma (Gypsies). He had a rather racist guest, an author, and offered me an opportunity to debate his guest. His guest turned tail and ran, so I had an hour to my point of view.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:08 PM

I need to find one that one book kat.

AND NOW LARRY.......So its a Police State...OK......It was a Police State 20 years back; 30 years ago, forty, fifty.............Whatcha' gonna' do? Gotta' plan?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: leprechaun
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:25 PM

So are we saying that a police state is a bad thing? How boring it would be for folk music if we weren't all so horribly oppressed. Some of the less enlightened may feel a slight sense of loss after the revolution happens, and we get rid of all this evil, corporate sponsored technology. President Ted Kazcinsky will make sure there aren't any computers, so you'll have to post threads on recycled hemp paper, and people will have to deliver them from place to place on foot, because it will be against the law to use an internal combustion engine. No horses or pack mules either, because we certainly wouldn't want to be exploiting animals.

Of course the upside to the new world order will be no police brutality because there will be no police. (I have it on good authority that the revolution won't be over until "the last police officer is hung by the entrails of the last yuppie") There won't be a need for laws because all the people will live in harmony. By Jiminy, just imagine a world so in tune with the great soul of the universe there will be no need to protest, because everybody will agree on everything and all the world's resources will be shared equally among all of mother earth's creatures. (Imagine no possessions...)

But folk music will suck.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Mbo
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:32 PM

Leprechaun--I love it!

--Matt (singing a sad-sack rendition of Revolution 1)

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:44 PM

I'd say ya make the appocallypse sound good. Maybe the hopeful people are fooling themselves,... but I think the cynics are the real fools. Hopeless disenchantment isn't nutritious; I would call it junk food for the ego. It's just that the cynics are so often right...

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 06:45 PM

In a police state, basic freedoms are suppressed. Freedom of the press, freedom of speech are the enemies of the police state. In America, there is no state-imposed restrictions on these freedoms that I'm aware of.

In a police state, arrest and imprisonment take place against political enemies of the state due to their political loyalties. Such arrest and imprisonment takes place without necessary evidence, a fair trial, or any other procedure that could be called due process of law. Our constitution stands in open opposition to this kind of police repression, and I believe it rarely takes place. 99 percent of prisoners in the US are there not because they are politically repressed, but because they have committed crimes against their fellow citizens.

To call the US a Police State is merely inflammatory rhetoric that libels America, while trivializing the abject terror and repression of REAL police states, whose citizens must take their lives in their hands to speak out in opposition to them.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: SeanM
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:03 PM

How 'bout we just call it a popularity based representative pseudo-democratic republic? Sums up most of the salient details, I'd hope.

M

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: kendall
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:22 PM

Seems to me that the main reason our jails are full is not the lack of freedom, but rather the lack of responsibility. Too many people thinking they can do whatever they choose. Does either Great Brittain or Canada have a "Miranda Warning?"

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:38 PM

You don't have the right to silence in England.

B.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 07:40 PM

Nonsense EJ I decry, listen up, I'll tell you why: The states are nicer this is true, but repression guides the things we do.

Death squads do not roam the streets, But gangs and violence; a real treat! We stroll into the voting booth, to choose between the ones and twos

creativity is on the wane, but 'ss' survailence still remains; while victimless crimes do crowd our jails, an arbitrary leagal quails

LAW and ORDER! step this way! calls the warden More EVERYDAY! Freedom's poor across this land, eat sadness for a place to stand

Look to our founders and hear them say, what we fought for's gone astray... The worst that Brittish King could do us, looks kind compared to corporate screw ups

and remember capital's ploy, The more we have, the less they enjoy! Think a moment of third world plight, where there is a noble knight?

we're working more and more, for less, but where are craftsmen? take a guess; Police are polite, but glad its true; we're all too busy to see freedom through

Comparisons to nazi hell, or third world nation's hungering yell, Are no excuse for lock down here, imagining we're free from fear.

Police states don't speak free they say, we're the freest of the world today... but appetites have cuffed us well, as the world goes hungry, off to hell.

ttr

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:15 PM

I'm going to try, here. I am not sure if what I say will be coherent or understood, but I am going to try.
Try being married to a police officer. Being prejudiced, I think I am married to a pretty good one. The feed-back I get from the community--the kid's friends, my friends, and even sometimes people I don't know--is that my Mr. is the best cop in this town. (We only have 13) He doesn't beat people, he has no racial prejudices, he has no age prejudices. He does DARE, K&N Energy for Kids, is an Operation Lifesaver Presenter, he is on the Safe House board, is teaching Driver Education this summer; he is the only Officer here willing to do Operation ChildFind which fingerprints infants and children for ID purposes. He does all this on his own time, without pay.

He also works 40+ hours a week for the City as a Police Sgt. and 20 odd hours as an auto mechanic because the City pays like crap. His combined gross income from both jobs last year was under $30,000.

For this, he gets to put up with all the verbal abuse that comes with arresting people who break the law and think that THEY should be cut some slack. Not the other assholes who break the law, just them. He gets to put up with the idiots who call and come by his home when he is Off Duty, because he is their bud. He gets to inherit all the flack from the King/Diallo incidents. Would you like to guess who gets the brunt of his anger? Three guesses, and the first two don't count.

A for instance: Last night, at 10PM (off duty)he recieved a phone call from a girl whose mother was very drunk and threatening to kill herself. He got dressed, went to her house and spent 2 hours talking her down and sober. (When he does this, he is VERY careful not to put himself in a "Conduct Situation") Bear in mind that if ANYthing happens when he is off duty, there is no Worker's Compensation to pay the medical bills, no "Cop's Widow" LOD payment from the State, no double indemity accident provision. Just the regular medical insurance (which, I admit, we are lucky to have) and $30,000 life insurance. That's it.

Is any of this making any sense to anybody? The up-shot is, that the Good Cops inherit the reputation from the Bad Cops, and just have to live with it. That is the deal that wearing The Uniform gets you. Cops are more likely to be divorced, have kids in trouble, have "mental" issues, or commit suicide than any other group I know of.

Do you have any idea how embarassing it is to bounce a check when you are married to a cop? How awful it is to have to go visit your son in jail when you are a cop/cop wife? How awful it is to spend your food stamps when you are a cop? How awful it is to never be garunteed a full night's sleep?

This is a cop's life, and his choice. Most, not all, but most, do it because they WANT to. They start out wanting to do public service, and help people. Most rapidly become disillusioned and either quit or turn into bad cops. I just hope someone will tell me if that ever happens to my Mr. He is very disillusioned and thinking about retiring or changing jobs, but that is not easy when you are almost 50.

I doubt any of you have read this far, but the point is, please don't stereotype cops any more than you would stereotype black,gay,Irish,Rom,women, etc. Thank you for listening.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:19 PM

There are two sorts of patriots. One sorts loooks around the world and looks for the places where they do things worse and says "We're not doing as badly as those people. We're OK."

The other sorts looks around and looks for the places where they do things better, and says "We're not doing as well as those people. We're not as OK as we thought we were."

Which sort is more likely to be driven to try to make things better?

When the children in a family turn out bad and do terrible things, you often find people turning round and saying it's the fault of the parents. But when the children of the country turn out bad and do terrible things, you find the same people saying it's not the fault of the country, it's all the fault of the people who turn out bad.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: DougR
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:26 PM

Here! Here! Let's abolish all police departments!

Probably gonna see a lot more armed citizens though if we do.

Think I'd rathe have a police department.

DougR

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Brendy
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:39 PM

A lot of whom are armed citizens

B.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:51 PM

Sorcha,

I am sorry. I should have said I was speaking about the situation in Casper, only. I've met your husband and he is a fine man. You, my friend, have written a fine piece of information and I thank you for it. It is always important to remember we are all individuals, usually with the same general goals of safely raising a family, having a rewarding career, etc. You have illustrated very well how this can be just as elusive for cops as it can be for teachers, as well as any other segment of of our society.

Please accept my apologies for generalising. And, I wish you and Brian well. Thanks,

luvyakat

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 08:52 PM

Police States are not good places to be a police officer. Not a good police officer, which is what most of them want to be.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:00 PM

There are two sorts of patriots. One sorts loooks around the world and looks for the places where they do things worse and says "We're not doing as badly as those people. We're OK."

The other sorts looks around and looks for the places where they do things better, and says "We're not doing as well as those people. We're not as OK as we thought we were."

And perhaps a third sort, McGrath. The sort who says "my country is not a police state. It is also not a paradise. Neither is it a shining example of purity before the world. It was, however, founded on solid principles of freedom and fairness, and our greatest efforts should be devoted to striving for those principles."

Thanks for telling us about your husband Sorcha. His is the kind of story that should put it all in perspective.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:04 PM

Dear Sorcha:
I did read your whole post, and in fact, the dynamic is quite different in a small town in the US than in New York, where good cops like your husband, are lining up to join the Fire Dept. and abandoning the cop shop to the bully boys. As to some of the other posts, not yours Sorcha, it is a indication of the political ignorance in this nation that they assume my politics, and put words in my mouth. The fact is this is the only industrialised democracy without a labour party, no party for the majority of the people - and most are too ignorant to even understand that. Little take home test - Doug, Kendal, the other yanks on this board, give us a quick outline about what the Palmer Raids were about, no fair looking it up, test your political historical knowlege of your nation's politcal formation. As to the jails being full becasue of Miranda, that is to funny to answer. I would remind you of the importance basic rights were to a small number of back woods farmers who fought to bring democracy to this nation, and more, what happened to them when - led by Shay they demanded the same of Washington.
All the best
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:06 PM

I read every word slowly and out loud... God Bless you and your Mr.!!!

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:07 PM

Leej, I tend to agree with your last paragraph and with your comments to Sorcha. I would also say that in many ways we have given up freedoms in exchange for other things, such as security. But Larry's observation is very common among a lot of people, and I'm willing to play the game for the sake of conversation.

In other words, I'll grant you your point Larry. Don't convince me of that which is wrong. I think you may see greater wrongs from where you are than where we are. Perhaps we're too dumb to notice. However, for the sake of argument here, I'll stipulate your police state. Again then.......Whatcha' gonna' do?

Spaw

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:50 PM

Good question, Spaw... If any of us knew how to turn things around, Ross Pirot would not be concidered a third party, eh? I have been fighting little tyronies one at a time, but it would be nice if we had a party. Well, Spaw, maybe that's it PARTY TIME! JULY 27th! Me and Soddy! Our Birthdays! How Bout a PARTY! A LABOUR PARTY IN HONNOR OF OUR MUMS!
All the best!
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 09:57 PM

Thank you, Kevin, kat, and Leej; and all of you who read it all the way through. kat, I was not pointing a finger at you. And Lorcan, I do understand your points. I have been to NYC, a very,very long time ago, and it was awful then. That is one reason I live where I do.

We do have some "cop sponsored" incidents here in Small Town,Wyoming but thankfully they are few. Unfortunately, our Cheif is basically a PR rep who does not have the balls to hire the right ones, fire the wrong ones or back up his officers (aren't most of them?-- that is my perspective). The PUBLIC is always right, right or wrong.

What comes to my mind when "people" talk about cop sponsored incidents is:
The Fremont County deputy who was killed with his own gun in his patrol unit by a minor offender juvinile.
The State Pen gaurd who was killed by an inmate of the State Pen. (kat--the Martinez incident in Rawlins)
The Torrington officer (here!) who was killed in a vehicular accident while chasing a repeat rapist/escapee from our county jail. The other vehicle was also driven by an Officer chasing the escapee.
The woman who caused my brother to be fired from his cop job by filing Conduct Un-Becoming to an Officer CUBO) because he stayed at her house after a domestic violence incident involving her X and a knife............

I make NO excuses for lazy cops, bad cops, arrogant cops,etc. and we have our share and then some here because we do not pay worth shit, and we seem to be a training ground for Northern Colorado--Denver, Ft.Collins, Aurora, etc.

BTW, LOD means Line Of duty Death. Thank you all for listening and being my friends. I am having a bad day.....I lost a good friend today, and she is not replaceable.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:08 PM

(so now we get our very own Wyoming's Dick Cheney for President of Vice, courtesy of Bush-----I am not impressed. I just might vote for a Labour Party candidate, but I have never been able to vote for a Libertarian. I ALWAYS vote, even if it is a choice between the devil and the deep blue sea........) Just try being a Democrat or an Independent in Wyoming. I am going to go cry now. Be back in a bit,after I mop up the mess.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:09 PM

Sorcha, I think I know what you are saying, and you said it very well. Why should I know? Because you could substitute the word "police" in what you have written with the word "teacher" and it would also have been true. Did you see the snobbish, "lets-look-down-our-nose-at-the-dumb-teacher" posts on a recent thread? I'd like to see those who pretend to be so quick to judge try walking one day in the shoes of those they criticize.

Lyle

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 10:49 PM

Lyle--yes, and yes. How some ever, teachers in my town get paid (entry level) at least 3x what the cops here are paid. Try supporting 4 people on $8/hr. And thank you for understanding. Teachers are under appreciated, too. I have many friends who have left that profession to be carpenters, etc. When you have 13 years of seniority, and the entry level wage is only $3/hr less than yours, why bother?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:22 PM

Sorcha:
I can't say anything about the loss of a good friend, other than the pain gets more bareable after a while, though you always miss the person. In the passage of time, it becomes more possible to put the person's life in perspective, but there is always a place where you miss that person.
Spaw... I know you always appreciate a bit of humor, in fact the what to do can take a book just to outline. It does begin with responcibility, but responcility of the government to provide a meduim for doing what society is meant to do, provide a socialised community, a caring community where we don't talk about rationing health care to the poor and elderly becasue it costs too much, while doctors, drug companies and insurence companys profits are not rationed. Bill Bragg once called socialism the politic of compasion. Compasion and responcibilty are codependant concepts. Until we have a constitutional guarentee of our right to work and full employment, until we stop exporting American production, until we have a party that puts the people of this country equally first, and the minority who control the ecconomy get there share of political representation, we are going to be in the hold of the prblems which make it seem a necessity to use a criminal "justice" system to treat a health crises like drug use (the most common reason for jailing Americans). How bout, as a start, American production jobs, instead of more jails, and put the HUGE expence of jailing and trials into medical help to end drug addiction. PS Note that the majority of drug users and sellers in jail are of the race and class that make up the minority of drug sellers and users.
Gotta run, its late
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:23 PM

Sorcha:
I can't say anything about the loss of a good friend, other than the pain gets more bareable after a while, though you always miss the person. In the passage of time, it becomes more possible to put the person's life in perspective, but there is always a place where you miss that person.
Spaw... I know you always appreciate a bit of humor, in fact the what to do can take a book just to outline. It does begin with responcibility, but responcility of the government to provide a meduim for doing what society is meant to do, provide a socialised community, a caring community where we don't talk about rationing health care to the poor and elderly becasue it costs too much, while doctors, drug companies and insurence companys profits are not rationed. Bill Bragg once called socialism the politic of compasion. Compasion and responcibilty are codependant concepts. Until we have a constitutional guarentee of our right to work and full employment, until we stop exporting American production, until we have a party that puts the people of this country equally first, and the minority who control the ecconomy get there share of political representation, we are going to be in the hold of the prblems which make it seem a necessity to use a criminal "justice" system to treat a health crises like drug use (the most common reason for jailing Americans). How bout, as a start, American production jobs, instead of more jails, and put the HUGE expence of jailing and trials into medical help to end drug addiction. PS Note that the majority of drug users and sellers in jail are of the race and class that make up the minority of drug sellers and users.
Gotta run, its late
All the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:25 PM

whoops! Larry

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:27 PM

Well, bottom line - I wouldn't trade my US passport for any other country's. It isn't perfect, but it's pretty good.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: paddymac
Date: 25 Jul 00 - 11:53 PM

There are many perceptive comments in this thread. There is no question that being a cop is a tough job in the best of times. As we (U.S.) have moved from essentially a common law country to one governed by statutory law, the task of enforcers of all kinds became increasingly difficult for a complex of reasons - mostly because there are simply too many statutes to enforce. The proliferation of statutes is itself reflective of a problem in a statutory vs a common law scheme of things - any group can organize a legislative campaign to get their particular view of goodness and rightousness encoded in the statutes and, by definition, applicable to people who may or may not share that view. That equates to a continuously diminishing degree of consensus among the governed, and a continuously increasing constraint on individual options - ie, a loss of freedoms. The judicial system has responded to this encroachment on freedoms by creating evermore procedural standards governing aspects of enforcement. Those procedural restrictions on the enforcers create much frustration, and often invite egregious evasion or avoidance strategies. Taken all together, these realitise create a condition in which citizens sense a diminishment of certainties, though just what those certainties are depends greatly on whose perceptions are considered. The critical point occurs when "enough" people perceive a sufficient lack of "certainty" to motivate them to prefer a "strong law and order" canditate for anything from dog-catcher to president. At that point, in come the blue-shirts, and the cycle begins again in an ever deepening spiral of the decay of independence. Ever so gradually, the "law" changes form a system for "organizing" a society to a system of "oppressing" a people. These are no great, new insights. You can find all of them in the history of the Anmerican revolution, and probably in revolutionary movements in most other cultures and countries. Where does it all end, and can we collectively muster the courage and wisdom to reverse the process? Well, the end, I think, is a devolution, with or without a revolution, where social control (i.e.; "law") reverts to some form of localized concensus system.

Didn't intend to get so carried away, but after a day in the library researching arcane issues in criminal law, it just sort of oozed out. Think I need to fix myself a bit o the crature.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:22 AM

I've never played it, but play a few bars and I'll try it.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:08 AM

Stick to the crayture, the best thing in nature......

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: canoer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 01:37 AM

I believe we don't realize what a repressive (police) state we live in, because in nearly every community, with the exception of the black communities, the repression is held behind the curtains until those in power order it used. The curtains open, Mumia or the Branch Davidians or the Detroit Newspaper strikers are forcibly and illegally repressed, and the guns and clubs disappear behind the curtains again.

We are allowed all the Bill of Rights – until our use threatens to become effective in enforcing our democratic will. Then we get our visit from behind the curtain.

This is a system. An overall structure. It says absolutely nothing about the various individuals trying to find their way in this deliberately confusing situation. – 2.5 cents, I guess.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Sourdough
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:04 AM

I think I could have read this thread with equanimity except for two experiences. Excuse me for using this thread as a way of trying to work my way through these issues of freedom, responsibilities, and living one's ideals. In other words, this is Major Thread Creep. (actually, that would be a good screen name, "Thread Creep".

To begin:

In the late Sixties, I had the chance to train police officers, about 30,000 of them, through the Law Enforcement Assistance Agency, a division of the US Department of Justice, under a remarkable man, Ramsey Clarke.

Over the next three years, I got to meet and work with a wide variety of officers. Many of them had an imperfect understanding of the law as it applies to police work and a belief that they were being handicapped by Supreme Court decisions. What I also learned was that these same police officers had mostly joined up because they wanted to make a difference. Working in a factory or selling insurance didn't "mean" anything. They wanted jobs where they would help to keep a sense of order and of justice. I became involved with police education at the very time when it was becoming understood that the police needed more education in order to act more professionally and to better comprehend the need for such niceties as the Bill of Rights. When civilians make sure that there is enough money for police education (as well as salary) and provide active leadership, police departments tend to do well. Yes, they do protect the status quo. I think that expecting differently is a set-up for disappointment. As is the case in so many other situations, US cities get the police they deserve.

My other experience was in a different country, Suriname. It had recently gained its independence from Holland. This had been done without a rebellion, mostly because the Dutch wanted to free themselves of the colony that had become an encumbrance. Independence was granted, crowds in Paramaribo, Albina and the other cities of the new nation cheered and a civil government was voted into office.

For a while, things went smoothly. Then the 600 man army decided it wanted a raise in its pay. A group of sergeants, acting as leaders, demanded the right to form a union. The President said, "No!" and the Army came out of the barracks. Terrified, the government jumped on the next ship for Holland leaving the sergeants in charge. There had been a battle, of sorts, between the army and the police. There was a single casualty, as I recall, the band leader. This musical comedy war, gradually spiralled into an increasingly violent and ugly war, not between the civilian police and the army but between the army and the people. The sergeants, finding themselves at the head of government, were reluctant to return to the barracks. To strengthen their hold on power, they killed the intellectuals and the businessmen who had a vision of the world that went beyond the country. They destroyed the courts so there was no judicial recourse. They shut down the newspapers, appointed a "tsar" of communication to control the electronic and the pencil press and dealt summarily with any dissent. In the case of one government critic, they burst into his home at ten at night spraying automatic weapons fire as they entered the house, making sure that they shot into every closet, piece of furniture as well as rooms throughout the house. Of course, they weren't concerned that their bullets were flying into the nearby houses because these soldiers were carrying out the sergeants' orders. Then the leaders turned on each other. Life in Suriname became a nightmare.

When I think of repression, I think of this and of my own fears when I was litereally trapped in this country after the sergeants closed down the country stopping all international travel, mail and radio-telephone.

I think much of the American anger at America, and there is a lot,is grounded in disappointment at discovering they have been lied to. George Washington sometimes told lies, the architect of the visionary Declaration of Independence kept slaves, justice is not necessarily blind, etc. However, the saving grace of the the country is that it does teach these values and produces at least some people who take these values to heart to the extent that they are willing to struggle to bring us to their view. The ideals have sometimes been widely based. The soldiers who marched off to the Civil War, to World War I and then WW II believed in ideals. Many were not fighting for La Gloire, they were fighting for things even more abstract, justice, equality, freedom. They were certainly not fighting for plunder. That the ideals of the US founding fathers have a universal ring is seen by how many new nations based their governance on the US model. That we fail to live up to our ideals is the source of much bitterness but it is still a work in progress. There hasn't been anything like it before. Social organization is a most firm material. Chiseling it to a new shape, cloer tot he ideals we learned in the primary grades, is hard but luckily there are those who haven't given up their role as social sculptors.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: sledge
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 05:30 AM

Well said Sourdough.

To surrender SOME freedom in exchange for security is, I think no bad thing. Given the way people are what would the effect of absolute freedom be, the negation of social responsibilty, anarchy, call it what you will.

In places around the globe where order has collapsed look at the result. In Siarra Leone 8 year old children are pressed in to a warlords army, is that an acceptable action to a free thinking mind.

I would much rather see a police car cruising past a school than a convoy of drug dealers and perverts. I would rather see a police task force formed in response to a murder or rape than a vigilante mob picking on the first person they saw.

I could rant all day to this, the phrase police state is I think overused, to try and apply it to the US or the UK is very poor judgement. In the UK I know that if I call the Prime minister a twat, no one will inform on me, with the result that I will be dragged off to enjoy a forced labour camp or a bullet in the brain.

If the tone of my post is a bit sharp, sorry its been a long month.

Rant rant rant ad nauseum.................

Sledge

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Ringer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:04 AM

You strike me as paranoid, InOBU. To answer your thread-title question from England, "No I don't, and nor do you."

If your country puts a greater proportion of its citizens in gaol than ever before in history, one reason might be that its society is naughtier than ever before. In fact I think it's probably a combination of a change to greater lawlessness in society and a change in the rules of justice, but I remind you that it's not the police who sentence people to gaol, but the courts.

You also suggest that the reason there is no Labour Party in the USA is because it is a police state, which is nonsense. And anyway, just because a political party is labelled "The Labour Party" doesn't mean that it's the party of the workers. Look at the government here, over which my father, who fought for social justice before there was a British Labour Party, would weep were he still alive. But although I vociferate against this government whenever I can, I sleep soundly; I don't expect a raid at 2am, because I don't live in a police state.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: leprechaun
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:09 AM

So it appears not many of you are playing in a police state? Damn. What am I gonna do with these shiny new jackboots? Does this mean I don't have to hunt down InOBU, trump up some charges and stuff him away in a dank and dreary cell for a crime of which he has no knowledge and certainly did not commit? Well, O.K. Guess I'll go finish the evidence report on that last meth lab. (borrrrrring)

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Willie-O
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:57 AM

Naughtier than ever before? Oh come off it. The major crime rates have gone down dramatically in the US in the past ten years. Everyone is scrambling to take credit. The U.S. jails are full because of the bullshit "war on drugs" which has caused highly repressive and inflexible sentencing for non-violent marijuana users and marketers. (And in some places they gave early release to far more dangerous offenders in order to accommodate the dopers.)

I was in the States for a couple of days this week, and it really struck me: its not a "police state" so much as a highly militarized culture. Interstate highways: a military network. War on Drugs; everywhere. (Yup, the war on weeds. Sheesh.) Even the way they deal with forest fires is very consciously based on a military model (see "Wildlands: The Firefight" by Steven J. Pyne, Whole Earth Review Winter 1999"). Prevalence of camouflage clothes, flags on every lamppost, and of course the national obsession with weaponry. It's just the way y'all are down there; you probably don't even see it. But its the striking difference between small towns in Canada and in the U.S., which in other ways are very similar.

By the way, I learned the hard way that in Canada, not only do we not have a "Miranda" decision, we also have no right not to incriminate ourselves. If you choose to testify at your own trial, which I did at an anti-nuclear trespass charge many years ago, you have to answer all the questions.

(The rules of evidence in Ontario work thus: you can be charged with a crime on the basis of improperly or illegally obtained evidence. You may sue for damages for the violation of your civil rights, but if you were convicted of the offence, you may not collect more than three cents!)

I think there's a major divide in policing systems going on now, in many countries including ours, between "community policing", which is obviously what Mr. Sorcha does, and what's ironically called "quality of life", or more accurately "zero tolerance". And if you think you are safe from unreasonable police intrusion into your law-abiding business, I reckon you're on the lighter side of "racial profiling".

Willie-O

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Peter T.
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 10:59 AM

I have been in a number of real police states, and listened to artists and writers there, and I know that one difference between a real police state and the ones that we are lucky to live in is that in police states people take the arts very seriously. They see folk musicians, writers, actors and artists as vehicles for liberation; and they revere them when they sing, speak, write. There is nothing like that here. That is why I know we are not in a police state: nobody cares about words or music enough to die for them, fight for them, go to jail for them. They are simply recreational. The best test of this is that in order to get a repressive thrill of any kind in the arts in a society like ours you have to extoll gangsters and crime, smear excrement on icons that other people revere and push sex as far as you can in music, or whatever -- just to antagonize. No one assumes that you will be taken out and shot for putting on a production of Hamlet in a basement. That is how you know you are free, relatively. One of those amusing ironies of life.

yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:07 PM

The relativity of various police scenarios, still basicly avoids an over-all viewpoint perspective. Like a tepid bath is so much better than ice water... well yeah, it is. Since people stopped taking ice water baths, the bathing-death statistics have plummeted! And people are so much nicer and cleaner and sexy and all... But the fact remains, that hot water works even better.

So it is with Police. Public saftey is important... JOB ONE. BUT WHY IS IT THAT POLICE SIMPLY ENFORCE THE STATUS QUO WITHOUT QUESTION? that is untill the low pay-high danger/exposure turns to corruption...

I value to the utmost the valor and devotion of public service, safety, and the peace keeping mission. I just don't understand why it is O.K. for the "KEEPERS OF THE PEACE" to work for the Makers Of War. Well, Don't They?

Subject: RE: Do you play in a Police State?
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Jul 00 - 12:10 PM

I think one of the reasons for seeing me as a paranoid, is lined to one of the least tastefull threads, why are most Mudcatter's white. The reality is that the major harms of the lack of social justice in the US are not wittnessed by most white americans until they have occation to fall out of the comfortable embrace of comfort at the cost of 70% of the world's resorces. It is not the same for Black or Hispanic Americans. It is also not the case for those who live in nations exploited to provide cheep goods for the US market, at the expence of a major American freedom, by the way, the right to a job. Now, out in middle America the connection between this and the police state may not be apparent. However, here in New York, where the police are used regularyly to break up demonstrations, and in fact under our present mayor, have been used to coorece organisers into not orgainising marches in the first place, to the point that for the first time in my memory the past several summers have had few marches, not because the issues are not here, but becasue of a return to the "red squad" days of policeing in NYC. Sure you can call the president a moron and not be jailed, but remember the real third party canadate - the socialist canadate in the Democratic primary debates the election before this one? No? It is because he got NO air time. Remember Alende, in Chile? That is where you see your tax dollors at work to destroy the potential of a socialist experiment influencing the American people. Now I realise that American oppression overseas is no concern to the average American, and until you march against it, and get brutalised by the cops, well, it doesn't look much like a police state. There is little sadder than the look on an idealistic US colege students face, the first time an American cop shoves him to the ground during a non-violent demonstration. In fourty some years I have seen that look again and agian, (never had it myself though, as a baby I saw what happens when you get out of line from the treatment my dad got). There is freedom for the apathetic in the US. I doupt any of you who think we have a safe and open society have ever serriously opposed a American policy on the street facing American police. When you do, you will see the limits of American democracy. Sure there are countries that are more dangerous, however, not many more dangerous than for American minorities. Only a few years ago, there was as much chance of dieing violiently in NYC, as there was for a front line soldier in the American army in Europe during WWII. Over seventy percent of those deaths happened in the black and hispanic community. Anyone who thinks you make a safe society by getting tough and sending in more cops, should have gone to Ireland before the sease fire, the tougher you get the tougher it gets. The way to solve societies problems is with reason not control. We, as our Canadian nieghbor points out, are becoming an increainingly violent and agressive society, both in policing, in our sports and in our use of military rather than dipolmacy and cooperative programs. And to quote Malcom X, in such times, chickens do come home to roost.
Larry