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Help: 16th and 17th century songs
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Subject: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,Timehiker Date: 07 Aug 00 - 12:23 AM Greetings, all. This Labor day weekend I'll be representing the historic site I work for at our local county fair. I'd appreciate some suggestions on some late 16th and early 17th century songs(about 1580's to 1620's)that would be appropriate to sing in that setting. So far I have "The Golden Vanity", "The Trappan'd Maiden", "The Passionate Shepard to His Love", and "Jenny Jenkins". I may know even more, but, unfortunately, most of the songbooks I have aren't specific enough about the origins and dates of the songs in them. Thanks, Timehiker |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 07 Aug 00 - 12:33 AM There are several on my website (in Mudcats Links) in the Scarce Songs 1 file. (Fortune my Foe, Watkin's Ale, Carman's Whistle, etc). More can be found through the broadside ballad index there which includes songs from some MSS of the late 16th century. Wedding of the Frog and Mouse, Three Ravens, Baffled Knight, and others are in Ravenscroft's 3 books given in facsimile on the SCA Minstrel website. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: BigDaddy Date: 07 Aug 00 - 12:57 AM Barbara Allen dates back to at least 1666. Bessy Bell and Mary Gray to 1645. Greensleeves, Pastime With Good Company, O Death Rock Me Asleep, Edward, Tom O' Bedlam, True Thomas, Get Up And Bar The Door, The Two Sisters, Lord Randal, Sir Patrick Spens...need I go on? |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Naemanson Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:24 AM See if you can get a copy of "Pills To Purge Melancholy" which is a song book from that time frame. Most of the songs are quite risque and bawdy but there are a few that you can sing in polite company. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 08 Aug 00 - 09:16 AM For Labor Day you have plenty of time. Why don't you take any song from a comedy by William Shakespeare, make up a tune, add the chords and sing them? (We don't know what melody they used for most of his songs.) Hey, how about "It was a lover and his lass?" We do know the music for that. This way, the words would be beautiful and fun. So much of that old stuff is morbid. Who wants to go to a festival and listen to songs about drownings and stabbings? At Renaissance events where I love, many peroformers play foist Scottish and Irish stuff from the 18th-19th Century to the unsuspecting people, so obviously some latitude is allowed.
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,Tom Date: 08 Aug 00 - 02:09 PM In addition to d'Urfey, you might look for "Songs From Shakespeare's Plays and Popular Songs of Shakespeare's Times" by Tom Kines, Oak Publications. Chappell's "Popular Music of the Olden Time" is another good one. Its a two volume set from Dover, but may be out of print. And don't neglect Lloyd's "Folk Song In England." |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,Timehiker Date: 08 Aug 00 - 07:21 PM Great suggestions, folks! I'm headed to the library now to try to find some of those references, Tom and Naemanson. And Shakespeare should be a gold mine, Leeneia. I wasn't aware that the tunes to those songs were lost. I do have copies of "It was a Lover and his Lass" and "How Should I Your True Love Know?" I'll have to add them to my bag. And you're right when you say that so many of those songs are rather morbid. It's a little tricky trying to balance them with some brighter songs. I'll likely add "Barbera Allen" too, even though it's a little late for our site. And Bruce, is the tune to "The Wedding of the Frog and Mouse" similar to "Froggy Would a Wooing Go"? Thanks again, folks. Keep em coming! Timehiker |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Downeast Bob Date: 08 Aug 00 - 07:26 PM How about "Who's the Fool Now"? Dunno how old it is and you might want to leave out the great verse that starts: "I saw a maid milk a bull, fie, man fie...." |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Thomas the Rhymer Date: 08 Aug 00 - 07:43 PM John Dowland. The First, Second, and Third Book Of Ayres, collectively called "A Pilgrim's Solace"... 1597 |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Mbo Date: 08 Aug 00 - 07:48 PM Definately Johnny Dowland...Flow My Tears is a classic! Another good one is "Hey Ho The Wind & The Rain" from "Twelfth Night" by Shakespeare. There is also a classic olde song called "Under The Greenwood Tree" that has really fun words "See how they jerk it, caper and firk it, under the greenwood tree...". --Matt |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Sorcha Date: 08 Aug 00 - 07:58 PM Here is a site I just found recently. This should be the list of pre 1600 songs from Cantaria . This is NOT the home page, do a little surfing in the site, it is wonderful. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:51 PM I just thought of a lovely one: "Lavender's Blue." this was first recorded sometime in the 1500's, and we are still singing it today. William Cole has a collection of Great-British folksongs which is to be found in many libraries. His old "Lavender's Blue" has rather sexy (and touching) words to it. I've wondered whether the "dilly" of this song is related to the "dil" in dildo, but my unabridged dictionary got all embarrassed and refused further enlightenment when I starting tracking down the word origins. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:02 PM Ravenscroft's books given in facsimile on the SCA Minstrel website contain the music for all the songs in them. A text of "Lavendar's Blue" of 1674-9 is in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website (Mudcat's Links). A claim that there was an earlier version was also made in an old thread, but so far no evidence for that has been produced. There are very few songs in 'Pills to Purge Melancholy' that are earlier than 1621. [Tom o' Bedlam, and a few from Tho. Heywood's "The Rape of Lucrece", 1608. What are some others?] All the songs (but without the music) in English songbooks with music), from Wm. Barley's of 1596 to John Attey's of 1622, with the exception of Thomas Campion's songs, and the madrigals, are reprinted in Edward Doughtie's 'Lyrics from English Airs', 1970.
Search the broadside ballad index on my website by year, 1580- 1620, where Stationers' Register entry dates are cited for all known broadside ballads. [Lord of Lorn, Ladies daughter of Paris (traditional), In sad and ashy weeds, Callino, In Summer time, In Peascod time.]
There are also Marlow's "Come live with me and be my love" and Raleigh's reply, and "How can the tree", and "How now Shepherd, what means that". See an anthology like Ault's 'Elizabethan Lyrics' for some others. The music, where such is known, is located, but not given in Peter J. Seng's 'The Vocal Songs in the Plays of Shakespeare', 1967.
Songs without music printed with them are in:
There are some other books with songs mixed with poems, but one usually has to dig them out of bibliographies of 'Poetical Miscellanies', and there were songs in many plays, (chronologically arranged in Shownbaum's 2nd revised edition of Harbage's 'Annals of English Drama', 1964.] but I know of no bibliography of the songs, and most often no tune is known for them. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 09 Aug 00 - 04:13 PM Sorry, that should be S. Schoenbaum. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: SINSULL Date: 09 Aug 00 - 06:21 PM Seems to me I remember Shakespeare being used in the musical "Hair"...What a piece of work is man, How noble in reason... 60s type folk sound. It might work for you and save you writing some music. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Mbo Date: 09 Aug 00 - 06:26 PM That's from Hamlet, Sins. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: SINSULL Date: 09 Aug 00 - 06:46 PM No, Mbo. I swear it's from "Hair"! |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,Barry Finn Date: 09 Aug 00 - 08:18 PM Hi Timehiker, I'd say you should spend about a week at Bruce O's site that he mentions above. He's being quite modest about it's contents. Barry |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,Bruce O. Date: 09 Aug 00 - 09:43 PM Thanks Barry. I think the tremendous collection of single sheet songs with music at the Folger Shakespeare Library were purchased by H. C. Folger because about every 10 years or so a new production of one of Shakepeare's plays occassioned some composer to do a new tune for one of Shakespeare's songs, and these were subsequently issued as single sheet songs with music. Many of the songbooks (almost all from the 18th century) at the Folger Shakespeare Library also contain songs by Shakespeare. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny Date: 09 Aug 00 - 11:30 PM Go with that great songwriting team of Shakespeare & Bacon... a-one and-a-two, and a Hey nonny no! == Johnny |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Timehiker Date: 13 Aug 00 - 11:18 PM Thanks a heap, folks. That sure is a lot to chew on. Looks like I'll be busy for a while. Wish me luck. Timehiker |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Timehiker Date: 11 Sep 00 - 12:47 AM I want to thank everyone again for the help. We went to the fair, and to make a long story short, got rained out. Our assigned tent was flooded, and the one they moved us to had a continuously running stage show, a ventriloquist act and a childrens theater group. Too much amplified noise for me to compete with. We did demonstrate old time games and crafts and it was an overall success, even without the music. I still use the songs at work though. I sing them while I tend the tobbacco fields or the vegetable gardens, or even just lounging around in the shade. It always attracts people, and creates a natural conversation starter for visitors who wouldn't otherwise ask a question or interact with our interpreters. Next project is a family campout on our park grounds with some more conventional campfire songs. I promise not to sing "Kum-ba-ya"! Take care Timehiker |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:09 AM Here's a true story to finish this off. Our town has a Renaissance (sp?) Fair every year, but I never go, so I don't get to hear the music. Anyway, one year our little band decided to do a set of Irish traditional music (18th and 19th Century) for our church picnic. It so happened that nobody in the congregation ever said anything to about it. No feedback. Later I asked the music director if she had heard any comments and she said, "Oh yes! People said they loved the music from the Renfest!" Get it? appparently lots of performers at the festival are simply playing whatever "Celtic" stuff they've picked up rather than go to the effort of learning new music from the proper time period. And they've been doing it for enough years to get the general population used to the idea that 19th C. equals 16th or 17th. Meanwhile, the management has been tormenting people about having hidden zippers in their costumes because they're not authentic. Honestly! Don't they know that music is one of the most important things in life? |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Melani Date: 11 Sep 00 - 09:56 PM Re: Downeast Bob's comment on "Who's the Fool Now?"--At the Northern California Renaissance Faire, we like to make up appropriately period verses about the people in our guild. Often they are in-jokes, but that just adds to our own enjoyment and the customers are perfectly happy. Example: about a guy who thinks it's funny to run up and down the parade grabbing everyone's rear--"I thought I saw a six-foot goose--Look out, Martin's on the loose." This fits perfectly with the original verses to the song, and sends all of us into hysterics. (Okay, so we're easily amused.) I really think making up verses IS traditional--after all, somebody did it in the first place. Everybody plays a lot of 19th century Celtic music at Renaissance Faires, for a couple of reasons--it's generally pretty lively and makes good dance tunes, and they know the tunes already. It's a sad but true fact that the customers haven't a clue, for the most part, and are happy with anything that's fun. Faire participants are generally amateur actors who are there for the love of showing off, and even with the workshop requirements, anachronisms and inaccuracies abound. I have come to the conclusion that the purpose of a Renaissance Faire is to entertain people while hopefully giving them a feel for the period and maybe teaching them the tiniest bit of history--or more if they are receptive--but at the prices they are paying, I think good entertainment is our first obligation. I know at least one musician who won't play at Faire anymore because they don't do actual 16th century stuff. Unfortunately, a lot of period stuff I have heard is kind of stiff and stilted by comparison to the later tunes. I suspect I need to be further educated it that area. |
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Subject: RE: Help: 16th and 17th century songs From: Gypsy Date: 11 Sep 00 - 10:28 PM Melani...as one of those people who have listened to you do Who's the Fool Now?, my many compliments! You guys do great! And yes, i do play period music, as well as contemporary celtic. Hope to see/hear you all this weekend |
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