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Picking Playing Partners
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Subject: Picking Playing Partners From: Little Neophyte Date: 07 Aug 00 - 08:20 AM Just wondering if people find they run into all kinds of sensitive issues or political type situations when choosing who they want in their band or on their CD. What if you have been playing music with someone for a while and are friends with that person but you don't feel they are the right person to work with on a regular basis because of personality conflicts or their style or skill level. Have you ever not been asked to be in someone else's band or on their professional recording and felt badly about it? I have not had enough experience to be dealing with these kinds of situations yet, but I can sense I may run into these kinds of problems in the future. I would love to hear the experiences of other on this matter and how they have dealt with the situations. Bonnie
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: kendall Date: 07 Aug 00 - 10:27 AM sure. When Gordon Bok recorded his "ANOTHER LAND MADE OF WATER" I was in the chorus, but, he did not want me to sing a solo part because of my accent. I didnt take it personally. |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: jeffp Date: 07 Aug 00 - 10:31 AM Oh, Bonnie! You have touched upon a wide and difficult subject. A musical relationship is as intimate as a personal relationship, with all the potential for joy and misery, excitement and frustration, that can be imagined. You can be the best of friends with someone, but still not be able to play music with them. I've been asked to start a group with a friend of mine, but I'm just not sure that I can work with him. Sort of like not taking a friendly relationship to a higher level because you don't want to risk the friendship. Of course, it worked for me and my wife, so who knows? jeffp |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Rick Fielding Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:52 PM Often a studio musician will play what you want better and quicker when you are recording, than will someone who's experience has been primarily "live playing". In choosing a back up band I always go with the players who can improvise quickly, as I rarely do a song the same way twice. I expect them to have top notch equipment as well. Punctuality has to be third. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Charcloth Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:54 PM with a previous partner I had he was not good at all about staying in time. He didn't listen to me as we played. He also was a very limited singer. Before we started one thing I sressed is that we had to be completely honest with each other & if we didn't sound good wether him or myself we had to tell each other cause the critics wouldn't be so kind. Eventualy I had to make him play along with a metronome to get him to hear how badly he was doing. He argued with me at first but then relented & started practicing with a metronome. He made great improvement. Eventualy he quit though, which worked out because I ended up with a much better partner. But the point is you have to make that stance sometimes or you will (at best) never improve & at worse your audiance will run when they see you coming or laugh at you |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Charcloth Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:54 PM with a previous partner I had he was not good at all about staying in time. He didn't listen to me as we played. He also was a very limited singer. Before we started one thing I sressed is that we had to be completely honest with each other & if we didn't sound good wether him or myself we had to tell each other cause the critics wouldn't be so kind. Eventualy I had to make him play along with a metronome to get him to hear how badly he was doing. He argued with me at first but then relented & started practicing with a metronome. He made great improvement. Eventualy he quit though, which worked out because I ended up with a much better partner. But the point is you have to make that stance sometimes or you will (at best) never improve & at worse your audiance will run when they see you coming or laugh at you |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Charcloth Date: 07 Aug 00 - 04:56 PM sorry about the double message |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Peter T. Date: 07 Aug 00 - 05:54 PM No experience of this with music, but I once had to tell a very good friend of mine who was an actor that he couldn't be in a play I was directing because he was unreliable. It was agonizing because what was happening was he was slowly going mad, and he was looking forward to being in the play to keep him sane. But he was driving everyone else crazy. May be the hardest decision I have ever made, because what I expected would happen did -- he got vindictive and worse, and kept deteriorating and eventually ended up in an institution. It would have happened anyway, but I still agonize over whether I should have sacrificed the play for him, for friendship's sake -- it was only a play, after all. But when you get involved seriously in art, there is a kind of necessitarian ruthlessness that is there, and everyone who has been there knows what that is like. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: GUEST,Phil Cooper Date: 07 Aug 00 - 09:48 PM Bonnie, A good, thoughtful, topic. I have been playing for 18 years with Margaret Nelson. We met when she came up and criticized my set at an open stage. I was flattered that anyone was paying attention to what I was doing. At the time I was a decent guitarist and so/so singer; Margaret was a good singer and a so/so instrumentalist. It became obvious as soon as we did a pubil performance that the two of us were a lot more interesting as a duo than either of us was as a solo. The only criteria for keeping the band together was that we determined that we would get good at what we did and that it be fun. We still determine arrangements by what goes over with the audience rather than any other reason. We also discovered that we travel well together and get to gigs early. Audience members still take bets on whether we are married (we determined that we could do better shows if we were not arguing about whose family to spend Christmas with) but have remained good friends and business partners over the years. We have played with other people over the years and the big criteria again is reliability and committment to what we're playing. And, yes, we have encountered some folks who are good musicians but not appropriate for backing us up for whatever reason. And it's hard to say no,but necessary. So, 18 years later Margaret and I as a duo and with Kate Early as a trio for the last five years are still having fun doing this type of music. Thanks |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Little Neophyte Date: 08 Aug 00 - 09:18 AM It sure is like a marrage jeffp. There is a group of individuals I know personally who formed into a new band. In this particular band the female lead singer has a very domineering personality. It kind of pulls down the rest of the group. Really sad to watch because the band has such potential. These individuals live in a small town and have known each other for many years. But how do you replace your lead singer when you live in a small community where everyone is so intertwined. I guess it would be the same issue as if you lived in a small town and decided to leave your wife for someone else who lived there. Somehow these people still manage to play 'musical chairs' within relationships. But with this particular group of individuals it is to the point that this band is not requested much at gathers to perform because no one wants to socialize with the female lead singer. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: John J Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:37 AM I was in a ceilidh band for some 8 - 9 years up until very recently. The band worked well for a short time and everybody got a lot out of it. As time went on friction became apparent between some members, and factions formed. Three key members left within a year of each other; the band may die which would be a terrible shame. The good news is that although three key members left and friendships were severely strained, in general those friendships have remained. I would rather keep the friendships and lose the band. We can still all play together, and provided it's not on regular bookings, we all still have a lot of fun. From my limited experience, what seems like the right choice of musical partner at a point in time may be fine, but as time goes on that choice may prove to have been not so good. I'm glad I don't need to make the choice. Good luck John |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:42 AM Does anyone remember the Peter Sellars spoof of an ethnomusicologist trying to record a fighting ceilidh band? "Pass the bottle...was that a bum note you was playing.....mind me harp..etc"? On Songs for swinging Sellars" I think. (E&OE) RtS |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Jim the Bart Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:06 PM It's funny that you should ask this question. I recently bought a house and, in going through some long packed up boxes, rediscovered various live and studio tapes of my old bands. I have found over the years that when you're playing together, you see each other so often that you're closer than family. You share some intense experiences and bond in a way that is rare. And when the band breaks up (they all beak up) you go your own way and often don't see each other for long periods of time. That's just the way the business works. Listening to my old tapes, I was amazed at how selective your memory is and how important the recordings are in keeping perspective. Tapes don't lie. One studio demo sounded so great I was filled with regret that we didn't push past our problems and keep going. A couple of live tapes later I began to remember all of those horrible nights on the road, the arguments over all kinds of stuff - bad rehearsals, irresponsible behavior, "creative differences", disappointing crowds, embarassing mistakes. The highs and lows are all part of the package. If you admire someone's talent, but don't like them (particularly) as a person, contract them for the date or session and make sure the business relationship is clear. Your accompanists don't have to be your friends; often it's easier if they're not. It's easier to give direction to employees. Pick your partners more carefully. You spend a lot of time together and you have to get along. Early on, set the rules for talking about creative differences or for making suggestions about the other's playing. Don't let those little annoying habits fester. Treat your partners with the respect you would want to get. Give them the benefit of the truth; nobody changes if they don't know that they need to. It saves a lot of hurt feelings in the long run. I once had to fire my best friend after playing together for over ten years. We didn't talk after that for almost 20. Now it's OK, but I missed him for a long time and regretted how it all came down. Live and learn. |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Rick Fielding Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:11 PM Roger. It wasn't "Songs for Swingin' Sellers", cause I've memorized every word and note on that brilliant album. Can you find out which one it IS on? I'd kill to hear it. Remember the Lonnie Donegan parody? I sent that to Pete Seeger (who has a few "Donegan opinions"). One of the hardest decisions to make is when you have to fire someone from a band. It often means the end of a friendship. You have to decide which is more valuable, the band or the friendship. Almost no way around it. Believe me I've tried. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Mark Clark Date: 08 Aug 00 - 12:44 PM Bonnie, If you're talking about permanent (for the time being) performance partners, you absolutely have to like and respect the people you're performing with. If prospects don't seem promising, sit back and keep looking. It may take a while to find someone. A performing partner must be someone you like, someone who shares your musical tastes and aspirations and someone with exellent musical skills. If any one of those three things is lacking, your ensemble will likely go nowhere. A band formed by a group of friends is perhaps the most difficult situation. Since no one is "in charge" it can get pretty hairy working out agreement on selections, arrangement, choice of venues, price, income distribution, etc. Creative solutions are often needed. I remember in one of my band experiences, whenever one of us started feeling "in charge," we'd change the band introductions rap and as each band member was introduced we'd say something like: "And now the *leader* of the band, put your hands together for..." introducing everyone as the leader of the band. This would get a great audience reaction and also get the point across to the most recently offending member without any need for confrontation. The simplest solution is often to form a band called Banjo Bonnie and her... (fill in a name) and simply hire hand picked musicians for specific jobs. You'll find the ones that work out best and make them long term employees. You'll call the tunes, approve the arrangements, line up the gigs, buy the sound system and parcel out any earnings. If you find one of your chosen playing partners isn't working out, just find a replacement. Of course this all sounds way easier than it is. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: GUEST Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:08 PM Some very sage advice in this thread. Dissolving bands isn't always traumatic, just usually. The band I play with now is, after two years, just starting to tighten up and get on to each other's internal rhythms, etc. I quit an earlier band that had our current lead singer in it, because she would bring six new songs each rehearsal, and not want to work on the new songs introduced at the previous rehearsal. After about 18 months we got together again, and with some diplomatic discussions solved the " too much, too quickly " issues. Now we all get along pretty well and are enjoying what we do. THREAD SHIFT ! - Playing with Picking Partners - In our larger musical community here, there is a woman who has been married to two fiddle players, and has just left her last husband to take up with a concertina player. They all play, or have played, before and after the splits, in the same sessions. Always amazes me how "music has charms to sooth the savage breast" - do any of your musical communities have this sort of experience ?? |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Grab Date: 08 Aug 00 - 01:45 PM Just goes to show, fiddling around's fine for a while, but after a bit you get to the age where you just want a nice squeeze... Grab. |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Peter T. Date: 08 Aug 00 - 02:17 PM Banjo Bonnie and Her Fighting Turks! yours, Peter T. (I apologise here to all those of Turkish extraction and the Istanbul Tourist Association, and take particular note that I am aware of the Armenian and Kurdish situations). Hmmm. Banjo Bonnie and Her Battling Babes! (That's much better.) P.P.S. I apologise for any sexist or pugnacious connotations that may appear in the above suggestion, and further repudiate any suggestion that such suggestion may imply that either individual women, or women in groups might possibly squabble, fight, refuse to return the hair dryer, rat to a boyfriend, etc. |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Little Neophyte Date: 08 Aug 00 - 04:31 PM Banjo Bonnie and Her Butch Broads Banjo Bonnie and Her Babbling Bitches Banjo Bonnie and Her Battle Axe Back-Up How am I doing here Peter?
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Jed at Work Date: 08 Aug 00 - 05:12 PM Personality compatibility is sooo important. There has been at least one thread on this subject, but I think among the musician community we have more then our fair share of personality defects, Mudcatter musicians excluded, of course! Yuo have to spend a lot of time with band members, you have to depend upon them, and you have to enjoy their company on-stage - hopefully for years. Select people with whom you share goals - fame and fortune? art and expression? political expression? rockstar? get more chicks/guys? sing for the pure joy of singing? sing/perform for the pure joy of doing so well? Actually thesea re all very different questions, and I suspect if you want to be able to have a successful relationship with any musicians, you ought to match pretty closely on those "values" scales. If you match well, and stay together and work at it - all the rest gets easier. |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Peter T. Date: 08 Aug 00 - 05:22 PM Banjo Bonnie and her B-B-Gunnettes Banjo Bonnie and her Fretless Females Banjo Bonnie and the Thelma and Louise Dancers Banjo Bonnie and her Footloose Frailers Banjo Bonnie and her Bring Back My Bonnie To Me Oceanographers The last one would take up a lot of drum kit, but it has a kind of pizzaz to it.... yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Mark Clark Date: 08 Aug 00 - 06:56 PM Oh Oh. It looks like I started something back there. Am I responsible for the thread creep? And who said Bonnie's band members were all women? What about Banjo Bonnie and her Bumbling Bubbas. Couldn't resist. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: gillymor Date: 08 Aug 00 - 11:18 PM A very interesting and timely thread for me, Bonnie, as my playing partner of the past few years has had to taper off due to arthritis and I'm casually fishing about for another. I really don't have anything to add here other than that I'm finding it's tougher than ever to make compromises at this stage in my life and I appreciate all the good advice contained here. Frankie PS That was a good one, Grab! |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 09 Aug 00 - 03:54 AM You know me and CRS, Rick! Perhaps Steve Parkes or AndyG will remember,they usually manage to put me right! I'll also dig around. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: GUEST Date: 09 Aug 00 - 04:21 AM Rick this is on UK Amazon. (Formatting affected by cut 'n' paste, sorry! Track 16 is the Donegan parody you mentioned, track 19 must be the one I remembered. Legends of the 20th Century Peter Sellers Our Price: £9.99 Audio CD (14 June, 1999) Label: EMI; ASIN: B00000JR41 Catalogue Number: 5201412
Track Listings
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 09 Aug 00 - 04:23 AM Ooops, didn't mean to be anonymous, only pseudonymous! BTW I spelled Sellers Sellars in my first post, hangs head in shame! RtS |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler (again!Sorry) Date: 09 Aug 00 - 04:51 AM Rick, This is an overpriced boxed 4-CD set but has the track I was thinking about: "Drop of the hard stuff" (which might also be in the "Suddenly it's Folk Song" track) but also extra gems like "Ukelele lady" and the "George Formby Competition" that have cropped up in earlier threads. Celebration Of Peter Sellers Release date:06/14/1994 Original release date: 1994 Label:ANGL Emd/Angel Studio Pieces in Set: 4 Catalog#: 27781 Distributor: n/a Double CD - £49.99
Track Listing: Trumpet Volunteer, The Auntie Rotter All The Things You Are We Need The Money I'm So Ashamed Party Political Speech Balham Suddenly It's Folk Song Any Old Iron Boiled Bananas And Carrots (Boiled Beef & Carrots) Unchained Melody Dance With Me, Henry Dipso Calypso Never Never Land Drop Of The Hard Stuff, A Jakka And The Flying Saucers (An Interplanetary Fairy Tale) Parts 1 & 2 You Keep Me Swingin' So Little Time Lord Badminton's Memoirs Critics, The My Old Dutch Face To Face In A Free State Puttin' On The Smile Common Entrance I Haven't Told Her, She Hasn't Told Me (But We Know It Just The Same) Shadows On The Grass Wouldn't It Be Loverly We'll Let You Know Peter Sellers Sings George Gershwin Fullers Earth After The Fox (From The Film Of The Same Name) Right Bird, A House O The Rue Sichel (Some Voices Inspired By The Film "Soft Beds, Hard Battles"), The Goodness Gracious Me! Smith Zoo Be Zoo Be Zoo Ukelele Lady Setting Fire To The Policeman Bangers And Mash Oh! Lady Be Good To Keep My Love Alive Why Worry? Grandpa's Grave I Fell In Love With An Englishman Africa Today Fare Thee Well Hard Day's Night, A She Loves You (Chinless Wonder) Can't Buy Me Love She Loves You (Cockney Version) Yes It Is She Loves You (Inspired By Phil Mccafferty Help! Now Is The Winter Of Our Discontent Night And Day The All-England George Formby Finals: Chinese Laundry Blues, The / My Grandad's Flannelette Night... Gefrunk Singin' In The Rain Eaton Square Blues (For Musicians Only), The Peter Sellers Sings Rudolph Frimi Featuring: Only A Rose Cultural Scene: Compleat Guide To Accents Of The British Isles Featuring: Don't Cry For Me Argentina Whispering Giant, The New York Girls Come To Me Thank Heaven For Little Girls We'll Meet Again
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Date: 09 Aug 00 - 06:12 AM (OK I'll stop now) Rick, it's also on this one, may no longer be available: CDDB Search
Peter Sellers / The Many Voices Of Peter Sellers - CD1 Tracks on this CD
1.She Loves You (Cockney Version) 2.Africa Today 3.I Fell In Love With An Englishman 4.Shadows On The Grass 5.Gefrunk 6.Fullers Earth 7.A Drop Of The Hard Stuff 8.Come To Me (With Tom Jones) 9.Smith - An Interview With Sir Eric Goodness 10.The Eaton Square Blues (For Musicians Only) 11.The Compleat Guide To Accents Of The British Isles 12.Setting Fire To The Policeman 13.She Loves You (Inspired By Phil McCafferty - The Irish Dentist) 14.Fare Thee Well
Buy or Sell Used Music |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Rick Fielding Date: 09 Aug 00 - 12:00 PM God bless you Roger. Overpriced or not, Sellers is worth it. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Willie-O Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:21 PM Well, getting back to Bonnie's original questions, (ahem)... Yup, its a universal situation. I've been on both ends (dumper and dumpee, as well as rejected out of hand as a bandmate by people who remain my friends). I think the first thing to do is decide what your musical objectives are for the next year or two, and look for people who have similar ones. Do you just want to get together in a learning mode now, and is performance a factor at all? If you want to perform, is your objective to play a few songs at an open stage or guest set, or do you want to start calling yourself a band and booking yourself to play a full-length gig? (For which you need about 30 songs). The difference between the two seems to rip many the musical combination asunder. Certainly you want to find nice people, because you're going to spend a lot of time with them. Even more important is a flexible attitude towards creative differences, and a good ear. If you learn to exchange constructive criticism in a kindly manner, that will take you far! (A number of people would tell you that this is a skill that I have not yet perfected, although the criticism part I have down pretty well.) If you're working towards putting a full-length repertoire together with other folks, so you can be a "real band", it's essential to learn to rehearse effectively. Don't just do the whole song time and again, zero in on the problem areas and solve them (or figure out how to skip or simplify them), and move on. You might have to learn some "filler" material that is less than exciting to you, if it helps you at the gig and/or is something your pickin partner does well. Once again, do it and move on. Not being invited to be in a band or something like that has happened to me plenty--beyond making sure that the other folks know that you're interested should an opening arise, you get used to not getting called. After all, you can claim the same privilege for yourself. You might ask yourself honestly, "what do I have that they need?", and if you can answer that question affirmatively, try running it by them. You might want to realize, it's just as difficult to be continuously invited to be part of a musical group that you don't want to join. One of the hardest things to do is take a long-running jam session and turn it into a band. There's too many pickers, too many different levels and objectives and attitudes and personal differences. When you've had a jam going for a long time, it's tempting to think that you can recreate the magic that happens sometimes at will, on stage, for money, but a performance is quite a different animal. But hell, you can keep the old jam going and start something new on the side, possibly with some of the same people. If the uninvited feel slighted, well, them's the breaks. You don't always want to play with a roomful of people--as part of your development you need to be in small ensembles like duos or trios, where you can develop musical communication, but have to make a lot of the sound yourself, without a big band to drown out your mistakes. I have gone on way too long here... Willie-O
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Subject: RE: Picking Playing Partners From: Little Neophyte Date: 09 Aug 00 - 04:32 PM I would like to thank everyone for all their efforts to contribute to this thread. There is a great deal of valuable insights to take into consideration. My 17 year old nephew is forming his first band. I told him I would printing off this thread for him to read. And I will keep a copy for myself. Down the road, I am quite sure all your words of wisdom will come in handy. Many thanks, Bonnie |
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